Twocubdad

Ditto. Unless the MBC does as LB and refuses to deal with the parents, there's no real enforcement. Parents are difficult to train. I always get a chuckle out of the number of emails I get from "Scouts" sent from a parent's email address in the middle of a school/work day.

I've got probably 15 boys and two adults who have gone through the program and completed the certification, including a number who have done it twice. They love it. Basementdweller's got the right idea. I don't know how this is any different from water skiing or motorboating.

I've got probably 15 boys and two adults who have gone through the program and completed the certification, including a number who have done it twice. They love it. Basementdweller's got the right idea. I don't know how this is any different from water skiing or motorboating.

No. The issue here is very simply the Scouts' responsibility in the process. Beav's initial posts were for the ADULTS to just make a call or send an email confirming that the Scout was authorized for the MB or had completed it. "Hi, Nancy, this is Steve. I'm with Tommy and Freddy, and they both just finished Citizenship in the Community." The blue card system requires that the SCOUT be responsible for getting the appropriate authorizations and sign-off through for the badge. I really don't care how big or small of an bureauracy there is. (But the beauty of the blue cards is that they are about as easy a process as you'll find.) I do care that the Scout is the one with the RESPONSIBILITY for communicating between the troop, the MBC and back. Blue cards, phone calls, emails, smoke signals or jungles as long as the Scout remains part of the chain. The comparison to troop meeting plan sheets is spot-on. The piece of paper isn't important, the key is who is responsible for the planning.

Hasn't this been around for awhile? Like several years? I signed up for something like this via MyScouting a long time ago. Seems like I've only been sent one survey. I don't recall the topic, but I recall it was rather mundane and only 3-4 questions. If you're only doing one survey in several years why create the expectation that your opinion matters? I know that creating a pool of volunteers like this skews the research results, so this isn't likely tied to any real, statistically valid research. Is this a real research tool or just a feel-good PR gimmick?

Right. Which is why I say "follow the money." No, the SE isn't out running the climbing wall, but he has a very strong hand in making sure the wall is in good repair and the equipment is there. In other words, what's his priority for allocating resources?

So call him on it. Send him a letter asking what program improvements he has implemented. Ask how his new program changes impact the boys in your troop and pack. Specifically ask about fixes for some of the BS things you've described over time here. Make the letter positive and encouraging. Let him know you are excited to have a "program guy" running the council, but that means you expect much and will hold his feet to the fire. Ask what you can do from the trenches to help.

In the 12 or so years I've been with the troop or pack we've had two UCs. One was an existing unit volunteer and the other was a new volunteer we steered to UC. Both attended basic training but dropped the pretense of being a UC after about 6 months. Both complained it was a meaningless job with no real purpose. The first went to being a full-time den leader, the other is still active helping with merit badges and boards of review. Now, our district commissioner is considered our UC. I think two years ago, he and our DE stuck their heads in during a troop meeting -- they were next door for a Cub recruiting activity. That's what passed as a unit visit. But we get FOS presentations like clockwork!

Follow the money. But look for the little stuff. We got a new SE a few years ago, again, a program guy. Our old SE was the type to stay in his office and develop plans. If it's not in the budget, forget it. The new guy is a bit looser with the wallet. I've been in a number of meetings, generally regarding camp stuff, where a suggestion was made which required money. Of course everyone looked at him. "We can do that" is his frequent response and "It's doable, but give me a chance to juggle some things" is about as negative as he gets. We're not talking new dining halls, but stuff like new shotguns and clay launchers, new canoes, accelerated replacement schedules for tents -- you know PROGRAM stuff. And the longer he's here, the bigger ticket the stuff seems to become. Shower houses, trail shelters, program shelters, etc. The key is, look at who gets to use the stuff they're spending money on.

One advantage of TM is it is easy to divide responsibilities for data entry. Our MB coordinator enters MB data, another mom keeps track of T-2-1 advancement. The membership chairman handles directory information, troop scribe does attendance and nights camping, I enter S-L-E advancement (since we tend to sign-off all requirements during the SM conference and I fill in a lot of the small details, like leadership positions, OA and youth training that the other folks don't really know about. Together, I doubt we spend 40 hours a year.

Agreed. I can forsee that patrols 1 & 3 may be okay with the current structure and not see the issues from the perspective of patrol 2. Depending on the age and maturity of the guys I may coach the boys that they should consider forming two patrols and let them figure it out from there. If they decide to merge 2 and 3 or 1 and 3 each takes a few guys from #2 or if they decide to go the full fruit-salad toss-up route, let them have at it. I envy you. Try this with 60+ kids.

I have to say, I don't see much of that. Of course I try to stay away from the Issue & Politics threads, so...... On the other hand, I think Scouting is too often lacking in honest feed back, at least between levels where it matters. I've seen policy folks lay some real eggs and all the little happy-faced council types fold their hands and all chant, "Well, we must all be Scout-like, mustn't we?" Supposedly, BP (the original, not the one here) said if he were to add a point to the Scout law it would be "A Scout is No Fool." Roger that. I'm all for Courtesy and Kindness, but sometime Loyalty, Bravery and Trustworthyness require rather emphatic use to be effective.

Great stories, Beav. All kids are different and approach things differently. Maybe kid #1's parents are lawyers? Maybe kid #3's parents are poets? Maybe #1 goes to a very strict private school and #3 to a montessori? No clue. But I can rather confidently say that how their troops process merit badges has nothing to do with their personality differences. This may take us off on a tangent -- but we could use a round of tangents about now. WAITER! A round of tangents for my friends. Extra lime in mine! -- But I have to say, I really don't like the MB.com worksheets (or where ever the source). They stifle interaction between the Scout and counselor by creating an expectation that all the Scouts need do is give the completed worksheet to the counselor who will "grade" it and sign-off the badge. Brings out the laziness in everyone. The more school-like the MB, the easier it is to turn in a paper and wait for a grade. I don't counsel many MBs, but for the few I do, when a Scout hands me a worksheet I'll look it over for a polite period of time then hand it back to him. Then we can drill into the meat of the MB. If the Scout wants to use the worksheet as a reference, fine. My favorite MB is Genealogy. Being SM, most of the guys will first approach me at a troop meeting -- new blue card from the AC in hand -- and tell me the want to work on the badge. I give them the assignment to fill out a family tree with as much info as the can get from their family. I think the actual requirement is to interview one relative and complete the tree through your grandparents, but I leave it wide open and encourage them to include as much as they can. Our next session is downtown at the history room of the main library. We spend several hours -- and sometimes all day -- researching the Scout's family. We just follow along where ever the research takes us -- census records, family histories, deed abstracts, estates, whatever. Like Beav, it would be hard for anyone else to know we're working on a MB. Sometime towards the end, I may pull out the MB book just to make sure we've not missed anything. And in the end, I say, "you gottcha blue card?" which the kid hands me, I sign, take my third and give the rest back.

Update -- just got an email from my Eagle candidate with the two missing merit badges. He dug up his copy of the blue cards for Cit/Comm and contacted the Communications counselor who had his copy of that blue card. He's bring new copies of both cards to night and we'll do all the final sign-offs on his Eagle app at the same time. Yes, it sometimes takes courage and vision to challenge the status quo. It sometimes takes courage and wisdom to know when the status quo is working. Oh, yeah. Someone made mention of the Scouts keeping all this stuff in a notebook. We SUGGEST that simply because it's the EASIEST method of keeping the cards -- no requirement whatsoever. You can throw them in a drawer, put a rubber band around them or drop them in the trash can as you leave the Scout House. Of course that would have been a problem for my Eagle candidate. Unless there is a problem, we never ask to see the cards. But it's just a suggestion. We suggest a lot of things we think will make Scouting better for our boys -- use Gold Bond at summer camp, keep a bottle of Tobasco sauce in the cook kit, buy a good quality sleeping pad (they last for ever) and inexpensive boots (you'll outgrow them in six months anyway.) TCD (leaning back, both elbows on bar, smiling broadly, nodding and tipping glass toward Beavah)

You guys are clutching at straws. If the CO had religious objections why would the only be enforced for COHs? Wouldn't religious principles apply for regular troop meetings and activities too? How about Scout Sunday/Sabbath? Sound like an ordinary over-reaching troop committee to me. If there is some extra-special event (like a really important flag ceremony) I can see the purpose of Class A+ Formal or whatever it is. But otherwise a proper uniform is a proper uniform which includes the various permutations.

WAITER! I'll have one of whatever he's drinking! ;)Cheers!

And that's where I'm headed, with a sorta modified version. I'm thinking about giving them a meeting to do their thing, but then pull the PLs together and do the horse trading necessary to fill all the potholes. But I'm trying to think through the details. Example, we may limit patrols initially to 8 members so they have the possibility to go to 10 members to accommodate some of the guys who were left out. (And actually, I have no doubt that before my special needs kid got left out, my oldest guys would have him in their patrol. There's a high correlation between maturity and self sacrifice or servant leadership. The 13-y.o.? not so much.)

So what do you do with the kids who aren't asked to be in a patrol? They only show up once in a blue moon, are known for being P.I.T.A.s or even the special needs Scouts who require a lot of extra effort? We could create our own Island of Misfit Toys patrol. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Bump. I'm guessing everyone has been on vacation. We're discussing this at PLC Tuesday and I'd like to fill in some of the blanks. Do you guys who use this system have procedures for forming patrols, or is it jungle rules?

My suggestion would be a written vision statement (or something like that which sounds less pompus.) Lay out for everyone -- Scouts, committee, parents and chartered organization. "Here's what you're going to get. If you're still interested, let me know." Personally, I'd arrange it around the eight methods, because that gives you an opportunity to cover just about everything. For example, under "Boy Led" you talk about conducting annual planning conferences with the Scouts deciding what goes on the calendar. Under "Patrol Method" you can discuss cutting the 20x40 fly into patrol-size pieces with every patrol camping 300 feet apart. And so on. Actually, I would include a 9th topic labeled "Administration" or something like that. Under that you need to discuss the level of support you expect from the committee, how you see working with the committee, etc. The trick is, this can't just be your world-view or it will come across as a power grab. YOu need to base this on BSA policy and best practices. Reference the appropriate BSA literature whenever you can. Frankly, if you don't have something like this in your head already (and it sounds like you do) you probably shouldn't take the job. I teach my Scouts that having a vision of where you want to go is the core of leadership. If you don't have the vision and passion to fix the things you see being done poorly and try to improve the troop with new ideas and program, walk away. All I'm suggesting is clearly communicating that vision and plan to the troop stakeholders. If they're not on board, you'll spend all you time and energy fighting over how "we've alway done it."

Problem is, Beav, you're not eliminating the administrivia -- you've still got phone calls and follow ups and and emails and SOMEONE is writing all this down. You're just taking the Scouts out of the process. How can that possibly be a good thing? So try to put the boys back into your system of phone calls, messages, and I'll-send-him-an-email-when-I-get-home. It sounds all nice and warm and fuzzy (like a big ol' flat-tailed rodent), and it works until it doesn't when someone gets busy and puts off making a phone call and oh, what was that kid's name I'm sure he was in troop 96 (or was that 69?) I guess I'll ask around at Roundtable.... Boys thrive on predictability and consistency. Blue cards are that plus reliable, redundant and replaceable. And when you leave it in your uniform pocket and it goes through the wash, it even gives you a fuzzy wad of blue paper pulp to remind you to get another!

DANG! All these years and it never occured to me the problem with the Scout Oath is it doesn't rhyme! On my Honor I will do my best, To do my duty to God and the rest. To obey the Scout law; To help other people at all time, and to keep myself from being a slime.

Oh, come on, buddy. Nice theory. I suppose if Lem and Whitey had really good memories, the could keep track of the Troop 1 Scouts who advanced without resorting to writing anything down. But with 61 on the roster, I have a hard enough time remembering names and patrols, much less advancement. Or maybe you are suggesting advancement be a more organic process where the senior scouts and adults just sit back and watch the Scouts at work and intrinsically understand when someone meets the standards. I can imagine the SM and SPL appearing out of the darkness and into of the glow of the campfire with a knowing, satisfied countenance and Billy Scout's First Class badge... While I agree with you that minus the badge, that's how the important stuff works -- character, leadership, citizenship, etc. Guys just get it (or not) and it is very rewarding in its own right when the do -- for both the Scouts an us. But that's NOT the Advancement Method. Of course you are correct that what we're after is what the boy is able to do. But why then worry about what's on his uniform at all? Get rid of the silly scraps of paper AND the silly scraps of ribbon and embroidery. Just more adult malarkey, huh? Obviously the Advancement Method includes specific, written requirements. As you so often advance, Scouts learn, are tested, reviewed and rewarded.. And it does require some administration. Part of my argument in favor of the blue cards is that they are reasonably simple process through which we simply ask the boys to document their own progress and completion. Not unlike keeping up with a time card, logging client hours or tracking expenses and filing reports. While best practices suggest keeping those records for the long-term (and we recommend our Scouts do that) that is in the category of best practices, not a mandatory requirement. I think councils/districts which REQUIRE blue cards attached to Eagle apps are overstepping their authority and the purpose keeping the records. I'm working with two Scouts now who are learning the lesson of keeping up with their paperwork. One is going up for 1C and has lost his handbook with absolutely no documentation of the requirements he's completed (exept for the SM conference which we held last week despite the missing book). The other is finalizing his Eagle application and discovered he apparently never turned the completed blue card for Cit/Comm. But we're all helping them through it and they will eventually get the issues solved. It will cost them some time and a little effort, but in the process they're going to learn some important lessons about responsibility, attention to detail and follow-through. Seems like a good use of time to me. No, I've never had a Scout tell me he enjoyed keeping up with advancement records either. But then I've never had a Scout tell me they enjoy the three pot method either. Or how to run a police line to pick up bits and pieces of trash. No one has ever said they really like breaking camp, loading gear, cleaning and storing it when they return to the Scout House. But those are some pretty important life lessons in there, too. Being responsible, managing the details, keeping up with stuff, taking the good with the bad are all the little lessons Scouts need pick up along the trail.

This is part of the game news hacks play with PR hacks (I've worked on both sides of the keyboard.) The news hack love exposing what they perceive as the dark, manipulative inner-workings of the PR side. It's a cheap shot, because they know no one gets to expose the dark, manipulative inner-workings of the news side. Of course ham-fistedness from BSA is nothing new to us. With an online blog, it would sure be easy to post the entire letter, but note this fellow didn't do that. He did go to the trouble of posting the letterhead/logo from the letter. Seeing that certainly contributed a great deal to my understanding of the matter.... As Short says, without seeing the whole letter, it's hard to gauge its real tone and intent. The blog does say the letter updated the retirees on the outcome of a lawsuit. Was it is a four-page letter with one line about referring reporters to the PR guys or the other way around? Specifically, what threats were made? Is the BSA retirement plan set up such that retirees can lose their benefits for violating this? Has that ever happened before? A real reporter would be all about presenting the facts. Apparently the Dallas News reporter doesn't want us to have the facts (or just to lazy to report them) so we can make up our own minds. Rather, we should take his word that this is something nefarious. Or maybe the point is to just embarrass BSA. I'd call this sloppy journalism, but I'm not sure I can call it journalism at all.

I don't know how you would do that. The issue is the edge gluing comes loose and the pages fall out. Don't know how you would fix that unless you drill holes and turn the whole thing into a notebook. The nylon covers for the books really seem to help, but you shouldn't have to buy a $7 cover to keep a $10 or $15 dollar book from falling apart.