Twocubdad

The "actions of adults" theory would apply if this were only an issue of the kid's mom and/or the council finagling a membership application. The key issue here is that of a Scout never having been active in a troop asking the SM to sign off on advancement. That's not an adult action or error, that's a Scout who never really joined the troop. "On paper" may be good enough to count towards the district/council's membership numbers, but it sure wouldn't fly in our troop. Even if you want to play the "outside activities" card (which I think is absolute BS anyway) on what basis do you do so? You don't know the Scout or anything about him.

Being the holiday season a quote from George Bailey is in order: "Here's your hat, what's your hurry?"

Yep, that's the question, Acco. What's the answer? And yes, I am the Scoutmaster and while I don't have a discretionary fund per se, most grants generally go through me. Of the three cases I've dealt with, I initiated two of them, not the family -- not unlike what PappaDaddy is saying. The third, I frankly don't feel particularly good about largely because I have no basis for thinking the family needs help. What I do know makes me uncomfortable -- the dad works for a large corporation and I know has to be pulling in a decent salary. The mom is a nurse and works full time. I also know the dad is as cheap as the day is long. He has no shame when it comes to sticking someone else with a check or racing to the front of the line when freebies are being given out. I've watched him do it many, many times. I also know the family takes some pretty sweet vacations. Frankly, if other folks in the troop knew we had helped this family, I think they'd be ticked and I'd have a difficult time justifying it. But that's all superficial, I know. There could be any number of legitimate reasons the family is in a financial bind I don't know about. We/I will do everything we can to help a kid out. In the past we've differed to the council. The family applies for a council "campership" and we will make a contribution for what the council doesn't cover. Frankly that's a cop-out. All the council's form asks is "how much do you need?" They essentially approve every application and dole out the campership money evenly. If there is enough money, they'll pay up to 50% of the cost of camp. If they're short, they give everyone less. As SM, I have to sign the campership form for this family and can't help but think I'm taking money away from more deserving Scouts. But as I said in the OP, I'd like some discrete and non-judgmental way of asking for enough information to make an informed decision and to feel comfortable that we are being good stewards of the other Scouts' money. That, ultimately, is the bottom line.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

So we're coming up on recharter time for many of us with summer camp fees due not long after. Does anyone have, or can the group come up with a get-to-the-point application for financial assistance? Personally, I don't want to see tax returns or balance sheets. I'm thinking something like this: Troop XX Financial Assistance It is the goal of Troop XX that all boys be able to fully participate in Scouting regardless of their or their family's financial situation and ability to pay. The troop is committed to helping deserving Scouts with financial aid to every extent possible. To better understand your situation and to help us appropriately allocate available funding, please provide the following information. This information will be kept in strict confidence by the troop and available only to the financial aid committee consisting of __________. This application will be maintained as a confidential record, howover all supporting documents will be destroyed after a grant has been made. Programs/Activities for which assistance is requested (ex. annual dues, uniforms, summer camp, jamboree, etc.): Total Cost of Programs/Activities: Amount Family is able to contribute: Amount Scout is personally able to earn: Amount of assistance provided by council or others (submission of finanacial aid application to council is REQUIRED to receive assistance from troop): Amount requested from troop: On a separate page and in your own words, please describe your family's financial situation which requires assistance by the troop. This last part is, I think, the guts of the issue and the part I have a hard time wrapping my head around. We have families in the troop who could be in bankruptcy but still have assets and income which would make the rest of us feel like we won Powerball. Frankly, what I'm looking for is some narrative which makes me feel good about giving these families the money which has been hard-earned by the rest of the troop. How do you ask that question?

The biggest problems were with people. Change leads to two questions. #1 What job will I have in the new district? #2 Is this a good time to step away? From what I saw, if two districts had each 15 committed volunteers, the new merged district will have 20 committed volunteers. Not 30 volunteers. What he said. My experience was a "merger" of two districts, one very strong, the other failing. Clearly, this was a take over by the stronger district. Biggest downside I saw was the escape hatch the merger provided, as described by Fred, and some level of ill-will due to one set of volunteers being asked to do all the heavy lifting yet plum appointments and stuff like Roundtable location being divided out of some sense of "fairness." BD's experience with Roundtable is almost identical to mine. In the end, it was all about numbers. If success is 75%, we had one district at 100% and the other at 50%. So after the merger there was one district operating at 75. But 75 was good enough to make quality district, so DE's made their numbers, the council make quality council, everyone got their performance bonus and all was right with the world.

I played defensive line in high school. We were coached that when the offensive line pushes you one way, you fight to go in the other. That and I just generally don't take well to being played. Beav and others have good advice for handling this diplomatically. That's cool. But no way does the kid advance. I'm sorry, but I have more respect for the program and the effort and dedication the other boys put into it. And I'd want the council registrar to explain how this kid gets registered.

Barry has good advice but I think his last paragraph is most important. Your greatest issue is going to be with the parents (isn't it always?). If you apply Barry's ideas to the boys, they'll absorb them and run with it. You've got to sell the parents. You need to be the one with the vision for the troop, or as Barry says, plan for the troop you want five years from now. You've got to sell the parents on that vision/plan. Parent's don't have a problem envisioning their son five years from now. They can readily see their 16- or 17-y.o. kid with a fuzzy moustache heading off to Philmont or up the AT. Problem is, their vision usually includes themselves standing in the picture, loaded up and ready to go too. You have to correct that vision. If they don't buy into the boy-led philosophy and your plan for getting the troop to that point, they will forever push you into a Webelos III program. I don't agree that the problem with the leadership positions will solve themselves when the boys reach First Class nad need PORs to advance. Sure, the boys will gain the motivation to serve in a positon of leadership just to check off the requirement. But without maturing the troop and -- most importantly -- bringing the parents and leaders along, the positions they take will be hollow. You have to make sure that, 1) the troop committee is willing to get out of the way and let the boys lead, 2) the Scouts in those leadership positions have the basic Scout skills and leadership ability to lead a patrol, and 3) the boys in the patrol are ready to be lead by one of their peers. For a new troop, all three can be long putts. Maybe there is a natural leader in the group, but even a natural leader needs both the scoutcraft and managerial skill to lead the group. The greater issue is the third point, that the patrol may not be ready to be lead by one of their own. Until now in their lives, boys have been lead by folks bigger than they -- parents, teachers, coaches -- folks who have power over them, who can punish them or dole out rewards. Another 11-year-old serving in a leadership position just doesn't fit the mold of what they expect a leader to be. Why should they listen to another 11-year-old kid, just because he won some stupid election or is wearing some silly patch? Well, because you voted for him. And because SOMEONE needs to call the shots and organize the work. That's just how teams operate. Very young Scouts don't have the maturity to understand they need to listen to their leader simply because things work best when they do and because it is in the best interest of the team to do so. Unfortunately for you, learning that lesson is simply a matter of maturity (which you really don't control), and/or just struggling through enough campouts to realize that things work better when we all follow the leader and work together. The best advice I got when I took over as SM was from a old guy who had been SM for over 30 years. He said his biggest challenge is to understand the ability of the boys in leadership positions and moderate the depth of his involvement based on that. You have to evaluate your leaders constantly, not just after each PL election. I now have a great team of senior scouts who run the troop. I can count on these guys regardless of who has the SPL patch on his sleeve. But if we go camping homecoming weekend, the adults best be prepared for a very different troop than the one we camped with the month before. It took me a couple "what the heck happened" campouts to realize when the older guys weren't around that I had to huddle with the ASMs and let them know we need to be more engaged with the PLs than usual. With a young troop, your evaluation may frequently be that you need to be involved to a greater degree than your vision of a Scout-led troop suggests. But remember your vision is the goal. An earlier post mentioned that when you or the other adults have to jump in, do it in a way that you can make a correction then back away. Don't let the adults just shove the boys aside and take over. Starting out with a very young troop is a tough job. I'll admit to screwing up a couple classes of Scouts (my own sons included) until I figured it out. No, they don't mention any of this in the training. Barry and the others have good advice, but no one can figure this out without knowing each of your Scouts and their strengths and weakness. That's why you get the big bucks. Good luck. Have fun. Don't let the parents make you crazy.

I believe the point is that in the face of blatant racism the BSA was running integrated camps for all children. Nice post. Thanks, Pint.

E732 -- I like the $600 annual fee idea. Actually, $600 is about right. Ten campouts at $20, summer camp at $250, current dues of $90 (which covers BSA fees, BL, insurance and troop admin stuff) and $60 for extras like ski trips and shooting weekend. We would still make money off the guys who don't go to everything. And may be a good way of clearing out the deadwood.

Our crew is in!

Here's an idea: I'm going to show up at summer camp with all 60-odd forms competed in Spanish. Or Mandarin. Then instruct all my Scouts that when they go through the health check to answer all questions with "no hablo."

PHI includes not only medical information, but the insurance info, and demographic info too. You let an unauthorized entity know that little Johnny has Blue Cross - you just violated HIPPA. I've seen big time trouble / litigation with MD's e-mailing info to the wrong address, lost laptops with patient data, etc... A missing flash drive with 40-50 scout's personal health info on it is a nightmare. Fines start at 25K and go up from there! That's why this country is in the toilet.

We used to have an occasional family campout. They really didn't work for us. You would think it would be an opportunity for the boys to show off their skills to their parents, but no, they became just the opposite. The Scouts generally sat down and expected the parents to wait on them, just like at home. Consequently we haven't had such a campout in several years. I would like to think the Scouts and the troop have matured to the point they could pull it off. I doubt, however, most parents have. We have a hard time fitting everything we want to do on the calendar, so I don't see any reason for adding a campout like this to the schedule.

Does registering as a Scout Parent trigger a background check? Does a Scout Parent now complete a full membership form? I thought they were just picked up off their Scout's registration.

I would want to be in your troop, Ea.

I had one kid quite because Scouting was uncool and a bunch of nerds and because he wanted to spend more time . . . wait for it . . . playing dungeons and dragons. Ninety percent is what Beav explained in the first reply -- this is mostly a middle school thing. Everyone is trying to find their place and claw their way to the top of the heap. Unfortunately, for many kids instead of trying to distinguish themselves, they just knock others down. If you are the captain of the football team, someone will call you a dumb jock. The president of the student body gets teased for being a suck-up. The difference is those guys probably have the self confidence to blow off and ignore the twits. When I have the chance I try to let the little guys know whats ahead and give them advice to dealing with it. Yeah, middle school sucks, but this is just what 12 and 13 looks like. But you will live through it. By the time you get to high school no one cares about this junk. Everyone has their group of friend and activities they are comfortable with. I hear stories like Horizon's chemistry class over and over. But until then, stick together. Take care of your friends. When one of your buddies is being picked on, have the courage to say, hey, I'm a Scout too. What of it? I also give the boys some help specifically dealing with the "Scouting isn't cool" thing. Ask the "cool guy" what he did last weekend, 38 hours of video games? I spent the weekend on the firing range and skeet shooting. A month ago I was on a wilderness survival weekend sleeping in a pine shelter and cooking meals on a hot rock. The month before I climbed and rappelled off an 80-foot rock wall. What are you doing next summer, cool boy? I'm spending two weeks backpacking in the Rockies. (Honestly, a couple good, old-fashioned anglo-saxon phrases sprinkled here and there helps the tone, but the boys figure that on their own. )

Sometimes life happens and sometimes life piles on. Sounds like this fellow has problems beyond simply being busy. I've worked with a couple folks whose lives were completely falling apart around them -- work, family, marriage, finances. The quick take would be that someone in that situation should drop Scouting and focus on the important issues in their life, right? For two guys I know in particular, Scouting remained the one area of their lives which wasn't in the toilet. They were good Scouters, respected by others and Scouting was an area in which they still felt some degree of control. The last thing they wanted to do was give that up. My first stop would be to have a chat with your minister. He shouldn't tell you anything about the fellow's situation out of confidence, but he may be able to give you some overall insight. He may be unaware of your friend's issues and may be able to help from his position. That is especially true if the pack is chartered to the church. Secondly, I'd take another run at helping your friend. If my above assumptions are correct, you need to convince him you in no way want to take CM from him -- just the opposite, you want to help him through his "busy" time to be successful and stay on as CM for as long as he wants. If his survival instincts are kicking in, he may see you as a threat to his position. That may, in part, explain the animosity over you taking Wood Badge. (And by the way, I would NOT take CM training -- that's only going to fuel his suspicions. Besides, having taken both DL training and WB, there's nothing you need to know that you won't get by reading the CS leaders' book.) A friend of mine is a business consultant-type and one of his sayings is to check your "sword and shield" at the door. That's how you need to approach this guy. Go in with your palms up. Start by asking his advice on den activities. Tell him that he is right, that you need to remain a den leader, 'cause he's got CM covered. But you are willing to help him with some of the behind-the-scenes errand and admin stuff if that will allow him to focus on the program more. Stay behind the scenes for the time being. I think the last thing you want to do is go running in, Al Haig-style, to take over a pack meeting the next time he's away (besides, that really is the CC's job). When you see things falling through the crack, quietly pick it up and handle it. But don't do stuff behind his back either. A good coating of sugar helps too: "I ran into the guy from Roundtable at the grocery store and he said the info for day camp is on the web site. Do you want me to print some sign up sheets?" Or, "I need new Scout socks, can I get the rank badges for the pack meeting while I'm at the Scout Shop?" You know all this -- it's classic servant leadership; old-fashioned leading from behind. Good luck!

Pure guess off the top of my head is this relates to employee/employer harassment and is required for actual employees. I've taught that section at camp school for the past couple years, so I'm sure we'll get the official word at staff development after the first of the year. I'll keep you posted.

Ummmm, maybe so. Not too familiar with Hungarian youth, so I'll take your word for it. The easier answer to me is structural. Our system of sending 18-y.o.s off to school really short-circuits boys from moving into both leadership ranks or Venturing. In eight years, I can only think of a handful of guys aging out who have stayed in the area and not gone off to school somewhere. And honestly, of the guys who stayed around home, I wouldn't be too keen on having many of them as ASMs. And even if we had the bodies, the program doesn't really encourage them. You're right, a big part of it is us old farts who look askew at an 18-y.o. adult leader. But the SOP discourages them too -- requiring 21-y.o. leaders on the ground and the whole silly mess with grey-area Scouts. In other countries like the UK there is a more natural progression from Scouting, Venturing and Roving. Venturing here isn't seen as a natural progression from Boy Scouting the way it is in other countries. I have a couple guys in the troop now who will turn 18 during their junior year of high school -- one of them this spring. They have the potential of being at home, in high school with their same old routine for more than a year before they would go away to college. The kid who turns 18 this spring has told me he very much wants to stay involved with the troop. It should tell us something that his greatest concern is that he is able to remain with his patrol. Of course we have the stupid YP rule that he can't tent with the same guys he has tented with for the last seven year, but other than that, why not? And more to the point, why would he want to join a "patrol" with a bunch of 45- to 60-year-old men? We don't offer them the sense of comraderie they have as Scouts -- just the opposite. By the book we cut them off from their friends. Do we expect them to enjoy hanging out with the old goats? To the original topic of the thread (you remember that, don't you?) they obviously aren't motivated by spending time with their children. You can bemoan the lack of leadership or sense of service in our 18-year-old-plus Scouts, but what are we offering them?

At World Jamboree in 2007 was an eye-opener for me in that the staff area look like a college campus. I was asked a number of times why the BSA leaders were all so old.

Snowshoes? The one or two times a year we had deep snows here (meaning more than a half inch) mom would just have me wear plastic bread bags over my socks and send me out with my sneakers.

My younger son earned his Eagle earlier this year (which technically makes me TwoEagleDad and gives you an idea of how long I've been a member here) and he turns 18 in a couple months. I hafta say sleeping on the ground isn't as much fun as it used to be, so I'll admit the thought of what I will do after Scoutmaster has entered my mind. But I there is still much more I enjoy about the program than what bugs me, I enjoy working with the Scouts and feel like I can still make a contribution. Plus my designated go-to ASM is between jobs and who knows where he will wind up. So I figure I still have a couple years left. But as #2 finished Eagle, it has been fun to watch the parents and adults in the troop whig out as the thought occured to them I may not be SM forever. I've noticed that the parents who are the most concerned are those who counsel a few obscure merit badges and/or only camp when their sons do and preferably when it's 72, sunny and we're doing something particularly interesting. The few who are really dedicated to the program -- the guys who participate whether their sons do or not -- don't seem as concerned, although they would be the most affected if I were to move on. They get it. Like me, they're here because they've made a commitment to the troop and the program, not just a commitment to do stuff for or with their son. I don't expect folks to stay with the program forever. Folks' lives go through different phases and Scouting works better in some phases than others. But I agree with that "I'm only in it for my son, if he doesn't go on a campout why should I?" is selfish. What's more, it completely misses the purpose of Scouting -- we're not a lad-dad outdoors club. For the Sunshine Club to have a program to pick and choose from somebody made a real commitment to the program, rain or shine, son attending or not.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

The DE has forfeited his seat at the table. I would be asking for a meeting with the Scout Executive to discuss the DE's behavior AND the incident with the district voluneer. Send the letter certified mail and cc the Regional Scout Executive. Inexcusable.

So climbing, caving, canoeing, shooting, etc., aren't Scout skills? What's wrong with using the activities your Scouts enjoy and taking them to a higher level? Instead of just splashing around the lake, turn canoeing into a canoe trek. Same for biking. Find some natural rock for a climbing trip. I dont' believe there is any magic in backpacking you can't find on one of these other activities. It's all in the implementation. There are a lot of troops which would be envious of your program. Build on what you have. Traditional scoutcraft is as revelant as you make it. If your goal is proficiency in T-2-1 skills, incorporate those into your program. If you can't teach ropework climbing and canoeing, I'm not sure when you can. But modern backwoods ethics don't necessarily include traditional scoutcraft. A pristine alpine meadow isn't the spot for a signaling tower, you know!

I've worked with the folks at Advantage Emblem for years. They's always taken good care of us. www.AdvantageEmblem.com Ask for Jenni