Twocubdad

After 15 minutes the camp director should have grown a pair and pulled the plug, don't care how high up the food chain the peacocks were. But you guys are letting your anti-Wood Badge bias overwhelm you sense of decency and courtesy. Wood Badge IS for the boys. We can, will and have argued over the content of the course, but someone has to be a real tight-ass to sit through a week-long course then put the time into a ticket just to stroke his ego. (Frankly, the peacocks on staff are another story.) The vast majority of participants are there because they sincerely want to advance their level of training as leaders and make a significant commitment to do so. Say what you will about the class, unless the ticket goals are way off base, they represent a tremendous individual contribution to Scouting. We all, including the Scouts, need to respect and honor that. I'm the guy who stands up at our Courts of Honor and individually thanks the adults who have contributed so much to the troop. Yeah, I can ramble on and I see the eye rolls, but get over it. The folks who serve the troop deserve our public thanks. A lot of what folks do is never seen by the Scouts or even the other adults. Unless you've done it, you don't know what a PIA recharter is, or managing a $25,000 budget which comes in $50 at a time. Or the ASMs who go camping with the troop even when their own son's don't. If we -- Scouts and adults -- don't have the courtesy to show their respect and appreciation for the folks who make the program possible, then we have failed in our mission to teach character and citizenship.

I think you're right, Dean. If you follow the First Class/First Year program, that leaves six years to serve 16 months for Star, Life and Eagle. If you rely on rank requirements to fill leadership positions, you'll be disappointed. We've worked to create a culture in which guys really want to serve as patrol leaders, senior patrol leader and ASPLs. I usually have guys wanting to serve as troop guides and den chiefs, although those who have an aptitude and interest in working with the younger boys is a bit of a specialty. The jobs we have a more difficult time filling are Scribe and Quartermaster. They are a lot of work. The guys who take them are usually those who "need" them and are somewhat seen as "paying your dues" in order to move up into other leadership positions. Creating a sense of duty among a bunch of older guys who dont' have it is a difficult task. I'm not sure how you do it. I think it is something which has to be built from the time Scouts crossover. Scouts learn to respect the job and those holding it when they see older guys who are there to serve them. "I'm doing it because someone did it for me" is a strong motivator. And there has to be some pay off for the older guys in the leadership postions, too. It can't all be a chore. One of the things we've done is to create a patrol for the older guys in senior leadership positions. Most of the patrol are guys who have served multiple terms as ASPL and SPL. I try to really take care of my older Scouts and give them the respect they deserve. Part of that means they earn the ability to do their own thing, have their own patrol, and get time to be with their peers. I take a little bit of heat from some of the newer parents and ASMs who don't understand why these guys get some of the privileges they do. "So why aren't the older guys going to morning swim with the rest of the troop?" Because if you're 17, attending summer camp for the seventh year and spent most of last evening hearding cats at the shower house for me, I'm going to let you sleep in!

So how do you change the message to "we need your help, but the help we need is different from what you are accustomed to providing"? We do take the Webelos camping, in three weeks, as a matter of fact, which is why this is on my mind. The Scout totally run the program for the Webelos and I and the other leaders spend the weekend talking with the Webelos parents, all of whom -- moms and dads -- are invited to attend. At one point during the weekend, the boys all go off for a hike and we have a formal orientation to the Scout program for the parents. Sounds like everyone is having a similar experience to what we're seeing.

You know Merlyn, you really need learn when pushing buttons helps your cause and when it hurts it. First, Base, I would reassure him. Whatever you feel is appropriate. After that, there are lots of variables, depending on the situation and the Scout. If the kid is 17, very confident of his orientation and/or seeming to draw a line in the sand, you have a very candid conversation about the BSA policy. There are clearly more options than Merlyn's summary execution. Oak Tree makes a good point. I can read the BSA Declaration of Religious Principles and understand what it means. I don't think I've ever read an actual policy regarding homosexuals. What DOES avowed mean? Does coming out to you in confidence count? Does it have to be a public statement? Seems to one can say to himself "I don't believe in any god" and disqualify himself from membership, but being homosexual requires more of an outward expression or action. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the difference between the two. Anyway, back to the Scout, you may or may not want to share your personal thoughts on the matter with the Scout. You do need to let him know what you believe your responsibilities are to him, the unit, your COR and the BSA. I would let him know what the options are and what the potentials are, especially in light of the California case. If the Scout is younger, or maybe coming to you unsure of himself, I would take a completely different approach. I would tell him that this really isn't in the SM job description and offer to help him -- with his permission -- find someone more qualified to discuss this with -- his parents, a counselor, a minister. Let him know you are there to support him and follow up with him to make sure he's getting the help he needs. I probably wouldn't bring up BSA policy with this young man at this point. But if he does and is concerned about his future in Scouting, I'd say, yes, that is BSA's policy, but at that moment the policy of the Boy Scouts of America isn't very important. This is a difficult and challenging time for him. What is important is for him to figure out things for himself and what's best for him. Together you can sort through the BSA stuff later, but for now there are more important things to deal with. Overall, the lesson from California is be careful not to make promises you cannot keep.

As an aside, 2 of these Scouts have been told by their fathers that they can't get a drivers license until after they earn Eagle Scout. And I'm pretty sure that they also won't be allowed to change Troops. So I think that I am going to be able to force them to help the next few weeks. Rookie mistake. Been there, done that, got the hat, t-shirt and scars. Third option is for the kids to make you and their parents so miserable you either give in or throw them out of the troop. It's unlikely that the father is willing to hold good on his threat for ever. Now I have to worry about his bad attitude infecting others down the line. and I'm probably going to let them coast as long as they don't cause problems with the others. Do you see any contradiction between these two points? Whose bad attitude(s) are infecting the troop?

Hmmmm..... 1. Fifth grade school trip to Washington and I volunteered to be a chaperone. The four kids in my care included my son and three friends -- one wa a member of our pack and another wa in a Pack across town. School policy is for the children to be under 24-hour adult supervision which means that I slept in the hotel room with two Scout who were not my own son. There were at last four other registered BSA leaders on the trip in the same situation. 2. Weekend trip to our cabin in the country. Three dads (all Scout leaders) and four sons, all Scouts. The cabin is one room with a loft. Since it's my cabin, I get the one single bed in the loft with the four boys sleeping in the bunk beds next to me. The other dads are on the sofas downstairs. Still, it's one big room with no barriers and a shared bathroom. 3. Son's best friend and den mate spent the weekend with us while his parents were out of town. He got some sort of stomach bug and pooped himself. I helped him clean himself and put him in the shower. He spent most of the next couple hours sitting on the toilet with me checking on him from time to time. 4. Our carpool to middle school included another kid from the troop. The other parent, who commutes to work, always took the boys to school and I always picked them up. Because of the other parent's work schedule, we stick to this whether one boy is absent or not. Numerous times, when my son was out sick or after school commitments, I picked the other boy up and drove him home alone. 5. Just this summer, I passed one of my Scouts pulled over on the side of the road. He had called his father, but I stopped and offer the young man a ride. His father was very greatful he doesn't have to take off work. Oh, yeah, (edited to add) 6. Last Friday, I'm meeting a 16y.o. Scout to review the final draft of his Eagle project proposal and sign it. When I arrive at the Scout House, his mom has already dropped him off and left to take his sister somewhere. His parents are divorced and his dad is always the one involved with the troop. I could hardly pick the mom out of a crowd and I know she's never been to any of the troop parents' meetings where we've discussed youth protection. I ask when his mom will be back and he says just a few minutes so calling her to come back won't get her there any faster and we'll be finished by the time she returns anyway. Most days we could walk down to the church office where there are plenty of other folks around, but the church staff is off early Friday afternoons. Instead of meeting in the Scout House we sit at a picnic table outside. While technically we are in a public place and visible from the street, there is no one around and we're about 100 yards from the street. So anyone need the name of my SE to turn me in? Clearly I'm a habitual YP violator. And I thought I was just being a good guy.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Miss Shield: Now, don't you feel terrible? Don't you feel remorse for what you have done? Well, that's all I'm going to say about poor Flick. Ralphie as Adult: [narrating] Adults loved to say things like that but kids knew better. We knew darn well it was always better not to get caught. I think a lot of kids take these little chats like that. They know all they have to do is sit and listen your blather for a few minutes and no real consequences will come to them. I like your approach, Travis. But instead of just standing them up, have a job for them. Clean out the equipment room, repack the tents, scrub all the toilets, inventory the tooth picks. You roll up your sleeves and do the work with them (it would be a nice touch if the SPL did so, too.) That gives you a chance to both demonstrate servant leadership as well as talking about. But then tell them you won't devote anymore time toward their merit badges until they start to act like the senior Scouts they are supposed to be. I think that would be a good month or two. Remind them that if they want to find another counselor they'll have to run it by their Scoutmaster. You start setting the tone for your tenure as SM NOW>

Totally agree -- I've had the same experiences. The PLC recently agreed to drop Librarian and the troop library. Very few boys use MB books anymore anyway. What passes for a troop library is now on the basis of "need one, take one -- got one, leave one."

Yeah, the very few rational conversations I've had with folks usually end up with them at least understanding there are two sides of the story, even if they don't agree. Unfortunately, most folks don't want to have a conversation -- rational or otherwise -- they just want to vent and walk away.

I think you handled it fairly well. I'd probably sent him off after librarian.

We have developed a mindset between the troop and pack that when boys crossover it is a good time for the adults to take a break from Scouting. Honestly, we have somewhat created that by pushing the Scout Led concept with the new parents, which they interpret as, "they no longer need my help." On the committee side, we do get good participation by a number of parents (mostly moms) who help on the admin side. After watching the program for a year or so, we get them to step up into committee roles like membership, recharter, finance, etc. Our problem is with the ASMs. Not to reopen this discussion, but I really think part of our problem is with the Cub Scout program burning out the den leaders -- the "outdoorsy" guys who would make good ASMs. After five years as a DL many of them probably need and deserve a break. For our part, we've focused too much on Youth Leadership in our approach with new leaders attempting to keep them from becoming "Webelos III" den leaders. In the past, my advice to cross-over WDLs has been to take a year to get trained, observe the troop and learn the program. What they learn in that year is to disengage, stand on the sidelines and not get involved. They learn to hang back and let the boys run things, but they never learn when or how to appropriately step in with advice or help. Unfortunately, we're reaching a point in the troop where our good ASMs who have supported the program for years are beginning to age out without any clear replacements behind them. So my question for the group is, how do you bring new leaders into the program and get them to find that balance point between letting the boys run the program and doing nothing? More specifically, what jobs do you give ASMs which keeps them involve but in a coaching/mentoring role but helps keep them from stumbling into the role of den leader?

If you notice an adult going into a bathroom with a non-related youth such that they would be alone together for a period of time, you mention it to the adult that it's something we try to avoid. If it's a pattern that ASM X goes into the bathroom when scout Y is in there, then you deal with it. Are you kidding me? If you notice an adult going into a bathroom with a non-related youth such that they would be alone together for a period of time, you go into the bathroom and find out what the hell is going on! Take a big stick, you may need it! I've been reading these two threads and have started to comment a couple times. But Beav has made about every point I would have made. The idea that we are bound by YP guidelines in our relationship with youth who happen to be Scouts is rediculous. If that were the intent of the policy, don't you think BSA would make that point explicitly?

I think your assumptions are low. Moving forward, it would be a reasonable post-Sandusky assumption that the number of reports overall go way up -- public awareness, policy changes, new training standards, paranoia -- are all likely to drive the numbers up. Particularly compared to the '60s thru '80s, I think you will see the number of reports mushroom. BSA's immediate reaction to Penn State -- requiring all suspicions being reported to authorities -- is a good example. And I would be surprised if BSA does NOT add to the increasingly strict and conflicting YP rules. More YP rules means more YP violations which means more reports. If the orders to Scout Executives are to crack down on YP violations, I wouldn't be surprised if we came to the point of seeing significant numbers of volunteers dismissed for policy violations, regardless of any suspicion of any actual impropriorities. My fear is we turn youth protection into Security Theater, ala TSA.

Wow. Actual, first-hand information from an objective observer. Maybe this is what caused the site to blow up over the weekend? Thanks for the good info, E.

Actually, we had one of the helicopter moms on the committee propose one last year. Her idea for one campout where the boys could focus on advancement so we could meet the goal of every Scout advancing one rank a year. While Scouts are working on advancement and I conduct conferences at almost every campout, the idea was this would be the focus of the campout. In her opinion, on "regular" campouts, the boys get destracted by the other activities and often forget to ask for conferences or get requirements signed, which is true. Don't recall what we did that weekend, but it was NOT focused on advancement or JTE.

Except our key 3 doesn't do any of this stuff -- all handled by a number of advancement and/or membership folks. Our COR doesn't even have email.

Yeah, time was calling someone a liar and a cheat would get you a butt whoopin'. Or shot. I guess some neighborhoods it will still get you shot.

One of trendy things now is when there is some chore to be done or some assignment to be given out, you'll see a lot of guys immediately put their finger to their nose. "Nose Nos" I think they call it. Back in the day, we would all just yell "NOT IT" to accomplish the same thing. The last guy to call Not It or to touch his finger to his nose gets stuck with the job. I really hate that attitude. It's sure un-Scoutlike. Not at all Helpful and is absolutely runs counter to the whole idea of cheerful service or servant leadership. So the next time your Patrol Leader, Senior Patrol or one of the adults walks up needing help with a chore and everyone else puts their finger to their nose (and at this point you put your finger to your nose) how about instead you take that finger and ..... (as you let your voice trails off, slowly move your finger from your nose and raise your hand over your head, as if to volunteer for the job.)

High road. Good for you. I'd send a nice letter to the HR manager thanking them for their support of Scouting and apologizing for the other leader's behavior. Copy that unit's COR.

I don't think anyone is going to disagree with you -- but I've been wrong before. Obviously there are benefits for the adults. I certainly wouldn't put the time, money and effort into the program if I weren't getting something in return. Hopefully, we all enjoy working the the boys, camping and serving with the other adult. Many of my good friends are Scouters and we have just as much fun camping and serving together as the Scouts. "It's for the boys" is a reminder we're here as adult leaders of a youth program. It doesn't mean we're some sort of dour, self-sacrificial sect. On the other hand, you don't have to read these boards to hear about adults who are in the program for the wrong reasons. Of course those reasons always seem to be in the eye of the beholder.

I'm guessing you've not been responsible for collecting 60 or 75 forms, huh, SP? If you take the job responsibly, there's more to it than shoving them in a folder. We have an RN who collects the forms and review them for completeness. Many miss the requirement for including a copy of the insurance form. And you'd be surprised at the number who don't understand they had to have a doctor's physical. Neither is a problem which can be easily solved the hour before we leave for camp. Our nurse also reviews the forms and compiles a "hot list" is medications, allergies, conditions, ect., the troop leaders need to be aware of. I can look at the forms and have no clue a prescription for falophuxiphene mean you have a hang nail or your head is ready to fall off. She does. And yes, you would be surprised at the number of parents who don't think they need to share medical information with the leaders. (Of course they are far out numbered by the parents who want to talk about it incessantly. ) We also have an interest in not permitting families to abuse this lady. If forms aren't turned in at the troop meeting the week before camp (actually 5 days), she spends the next several days chasing people down, meeting them to get the form -- she even had folks try to get her to do the physical for their son. Of course there are acceptable reasons for not meeting the deadline. Not getting around to it ain't one of them! Setting reasonable deadlines and expecting folks to adhere to them isn't a bad thing.

...having someone else do the logistics of planning and I as a MBC just show up or a Scout just sign up makes things easier... We'll thar's yer p'obem rite thar! The purpose of the merit badge program -- and advancement overall -- isn't to give adults the opportunity to make things easier. It is a series of surmountable problems which teach the Scouts any number of life skills, inparticular, and as they relate to my point, tenacity, dealing with adults they don't know, making and keeping appointments, dealing with logistics and more. Creating Merit Badge Universities, encampments, challenge -- whatever you call it -- cheats the Scouts out of the opportunity to overcome those obstacles and learn those skills. I WANT my Scouts to have to deal with those problems themselves. THE NUMBER ONE PROBLEM with advancement, in my opinion, is adults who apply their adult view, their 40 or 50 years of life and business experience and education to the advancement program. A 10 year old Webelos cracks open that new Boy Scout Handbook and thinks, "man, that a lot!" An adult looks at the requirements and starts figuring ways to double-count requirements, how to group them together, organizing classes, making the program efficient and thinks, "if we do this right, we can knock out Eagle in 18-to-20 months tops!" Like I said, thar's yer p'obem rite thar!

While I wouldn't plan a pack activity around playing cops and robbers (mainly because there are far too many activities available which support the program), I'm not going to shut down a good shootout if one breaks out. I see a difference between "unauthorized" and prohibited.

We've had a few. If you're going to generalize, frankly, I'll take the home-schooled kids over the private school kid seven days a week and twice on Sunday. I've got the same kid you describe in my troop with three differences: he goes to public school and his father would let him starve and walk home before putting up with that sort of bull. The biggie is this kid had some serious health issues when he was little and spent a couple years in and out of hospitals. I think one year he was officially home-schooled, but the rest of the time he was in a program with the public schools which sent tutors to the hospital and tried to keep him up. He is, however, a grade behind. I've always attributed his attitude toward adults to having spent a couple of his most formative years hanging out with a lot of adults most of whom have upwards of 10 or 12 years of post-graduate education. The kid has a very familar, peer-to-peer attitude toward most adults which was especially inappropriate and grating when he was younger; less so now that he is older. By comparison, I have two brothers who are both home schooled by parents who are well educated themselves, take home schooling very seriously and are very disciplined in their approach and expect the same from their sons. Probably the most well-adjusted, mature boys in the troop. Point is, I don't think you can blame the kids' attitude/behavior on how they are schooled. If kids are being home schooled because mommy can't powder their butts while they are at school, you get one result. If they are home schooled because mommy can't KICK their butts while they are at school, you get another.

One of Bess Truman's friend's complained to her about Harry's use of the word "crap". She suggested Mrs. Truman have the President say "manure" instead. "Oh, my Lord," Mrs. Truman replied, "you don't know how long it took me to get him to say 'crap'!" I'm your Scoutmaster. My 90 minute troop meeting last night started at 5:30 and ended well past 9:00. I was one of three adults who spent five hours Saturday morning working with the new quartermasters to inventory gear and repair tents. I missed the second half of the ball game Sunday to meet with a Scout on his Eagle project. I made time in my work schedule Monday to meet discuss an Eagle project with another Scout because his mom couldn't fit a Sunday afternoon meeting in her schedule. And that's just the last four days. If the SM was asking "whose crap is this" I'm guessing he was NOT referring to the line of packs with the gear neatly and properly stowed. Maybe your observation that the boys were tightening the gear and filling their water bottles missed a few things. Perhaps prior to doing so the SM had asked them to clean up their crap -- perhaps numerous times. I've been in the troop almost 10 years now, more than 8 as SM. The key difference I've found between "parents" and "leader" is the leaders see the big picture and the dynamics within the whole troop. Parents see their little piece of the puzzle, probably with greater resolution than the leaders, but only a piece of the puzzle none the less. This divide between leader and parent has nothing to do registered position and little to do with parenthood. It IS all about Scoutmaster Attitude, to coin a phrase. The attitude that the buck stops here. That he is ultimately responsible for the safety and well being of 60 children which aren't his. That when the Scouts leave their crap laying all over, the SM is ultimately responsible for bringing the boys back around and having them pick up (youth leadership issues aside). That when the biking guy blows off the biking trip for a Cub event, the SM is the guy who steps in. He does so because he knows the parents in the group have the attitude that they're there to go biking with their boys, not that they are ultimately responsible for the whole group. And why do you have issues about merit badge requirements with the SM? Are you the district advancement chairman? My suggestion is to do one of two things. One is to get him a $100 gift card from a really nice restaurant. Tell him how much you appreciate everything he does for your son and the entire troop. You hope he will take his wife out for a nice, relaxing dinner on you. The other suggestion is to look seriously at those other troops.