Twocubdad

But why would you? Why would the Scout want to? How does that young man or the troop program generally benefit?

With the Scouts you describe, 5year, you raise the bar -- challenge them to try some new menus and techniques they've not learned. I dont' think you just say, "yeah you can cook" and sign the book. Knowing how to cook is only part of the process. Planning, preparation, responsibility, working with others, trying something new, dealing with adversity and failure, being the guy who has to crawl out of the warm bag and starting the fire -- all that is part of the experience. A Scout misses that if you essentially treat T-2-1 requirements as a placement test on the minimum skills he may already possess. And before the That's Adding Requirements Chorus tunes up, unless you are an absolute dolt, you don't add to the requirements. Part of the art of Scoutmastership is encouraging the Scouts to do more, to stretch themselves and try new things. If you can't motivate a kid with good cooking skills to show off and make a Dutch oven pizza or doughnuts for his patrol, you're in the wrong business. Ditto that if you let the kid get away with making the same hobo dinners he's been making the past two years. (And 5year, I'm not suggesting you are letting the boys skate by because I really have no idea. Just advancing the discussion here.) 5year's Webelos may make Bear Gryllis look like a city slicker. Fine. If they are such accomplished outdoorsmen then why are they in Boy Scouts? Go climb Denali or something. We're not an outdoor club. Our mission is larger than that. Thinking about the bigger picture of this, it seems to me many of our advancement debates come down to a difference between those who put the emphasis on completing the written requirements versus those who want the boys to have the experiences embodied by the requirements. (And I'm trying to phrase those two positions as neutrally as I can -- if anyone has a less perjoritive way of saying it, I'm all ears.) Clearly, I'm in the experience camp. I really don't care much for precisely what the requirements says. If an active, engaged third-year kid comes to me to sign off on a requirement and I know he understands and is compentent at the underlying skills, I'm going to sign the book. On the other hand, if a kid who rarely attends campouts comes to me having made toasted poptarts for breakfast, hotdogs for lunch and heated a can of Dinty-Moore for dinner, then no. I don't care what his Scout lawyer says about the technical language of the requirement. My goal is for my Scouts to have the best Scouting experience possible. Yes, much of the program -- I'd say too much -- is built around completing the advancement requirements. But IMHO, focusing on the checklist instead of the experience is the wrong direction. Oh, and as to the OP: No, not in our troop. Who is doing the sign-offs on all this? Who did the plant and animal identification (I'm the plant ID guy in our troop and usually spend an hour or more with each Scout on this requirement alone.) Way too much work would have to be done solo, outside of troop activities and (probably) with a parent. So if you're doing your five-miler with your dad, map and compass with the local orienteering club, plants and animals with the ranger at the local park, where is the bonding with the troop? Where is the patrol method, youth leadership, team work or just having a good time with your buddies? Where is the EXPERIENCE of Scouting?

Here in the South we're taught at a very young age to respond to such boasting with, "do tell." "My daddy had 1500 acres in tobacco." "Do tell." "He bought just bought me a new F-150 for graduation." "Do tell!" "He said if I get Betty Lee to marry me, he'll buy us a house in Charleston." "DOOO Tell!" We always say "Do Tell" 'cause is sounds so much more polite than "@%@&! YOU!"

732 -- yep, that's what the adults are for, to handle the chores. Don't want to pull anyone away from napping through Citizenship! We frequently cover merit badge topics at troop meetings, often in the winter when it's dark out and outdoor activities are more difficult. But we don't teach the merit badge. We usually don't mention the requirements. We do cover much of the information a Scout would need to know to complete the badge. This all takes place during the usual instruction time. Sometimes there are separate breakouts for the MB, which tend to be a bit more advanced, and basic T-2-1 skills; sometimes the MB topics are the only instruction offered that night. At the end of the night we don't line the guys up and distribute blue cards. If a Scout wants to earn the badge, he goes through the normal process of pulling a blue card and working with the counselor to complete the requirements individually. Last winter we did four weeks on Engineering. Had a number of parents in various engineering fields do presentations on what they do. Civil, mechanical, electronic, a couple guys work in nuclear, another for a race team. Pretty interesting stuff. We had one session on truss construction and had patrols compete to see which could build the strongest popsicle-stick brige. It was cool because the guys got into analyzing the failures and what they could have done to make them stronger. Funny, one bridge held all the bricks we had for weights. Problem was, the problems was to build a bridge which could SPAN 24 inches. They built a bridge exactly 24" long which wasn't long enough to carry. Dang contract spec -- they'll bite you in the butt everytime. That was in January and I don't think we have one boy earn the MB yet. Complete failure. Hardly. The kids learned some stuff and had a good time doing it. THAT'S how we do merit badge class during troop meetings.

We've been in the throes of college applications around here for the last couple years and I can tell you based on the conversations I've had with several college admission staffers, Eagle just isn't that big of a deal. Grades, test scores, grades, difficulty of course work and grades are what they look at. All the extra curricular stuff is judging how well "rounded" you are, that is are you fairly balanced and stable or are you a total academic freak who will jump off the top floor of the library the first time you be a "B"? One of the most encouraging things I heard from an admissions officer was they look at the breadth of extra curriculars, not the numbers. Back in the day, we tried to get our name on as many high school clubs as possible, even if they only meant showing up for the first meeting of the year. What this lady said they look for are students who excell in organizations and programs with which they are engaged for years; master the program, develop into a leader of the program and in some way give back to it as a senior member. Of course, Scouting is ready made for that sort of envolvement, but it doesn't necessarily describe every Eagle's career track. Eagle is one of any number of things kids can demonstrate that sort of dedication, mastery and service.

I don't particularly care what age a scout is when he makes Eagle. I'm more interested in how old he is when he attends his last meeting as a youth member, and I hope that's 17.9 years old or thereabouts. Aging out an active scout who has participated in a challenging, meaningful program, that's my hope for them. Wiz on the fire, call in the dogs and head on back to Bowlegs. We have the correct answer.

BD -- when the NESA directory before the most recent one cam out, I went through and looked up as many Eagles as I could think of -- guys from my old troop, fellows in the troop I now serve, scouters I know to be Eagle.... I think I looked up about 40 Eagles and found maybe 12. No, not being in the directory doesn't mean much.

What do I expect from Eagle Scouts? Their best effort. Do Your Best is the first thing you learn as a Cub. It still applies.

I suspect Mom and Dad may be the real target demographic for the book. I suspect Hawkins may be right. So how about DVD video game insert for the boys which will cover the key points? You earn points by bagging requirements. Through the game there are various thing you can pick up which help you along the way -- a napping merit badge counselor, a whip-shapped pencil, merit badge worksheets and the real jewel, the advancement chairman's ScoutNet password. The various game levels include First Class/First Level, Summer Camp merit badge classes, Merit Badge University and for the really skilled a secret portal to the Eagle Mill.

Instead of bleach or hot water (which can be hazardous) use Steramine tablets which are available at most restaurant supply stores or easily online (Google it, you'll get tons of hits). Restaurants use Steramine to make the stuff they spray on surfaces, like your table. It's nice because after you're finished with the dishes you can use the rest of the rinse water to wipe down the table and other stuff. We buy it in bulk, but get large medicine bottles from the drug store and only give patrols a handful of tablets at a time (if they get wet they're wrecked). In two years we've yet to go through a full bottle. We tell our guys to make all three tubs comfortably warm -- wash, rinse, sterilize. With the Steramine tabs we're not relying on heat for sterilization.

That the Scout would rather go through the appeal process than honor his word and go on a couple campouts -- you know, actually be a Scout for the next couple monthse -- tells me Chris made the right decision. Unless the process has changed, the council advancement committee will serve as the finder of fact as well as making a determination. Here, the district advancement chairman serves as the primary "investigator" gathering the info from the various parties. The troop and Scout have the opportunity to submit a written statement and other documentation. The Scout and SM appear before the full council committee privately. The Scout's parents may accompany their son, but may not participate. Not sure how much of this is local procedure vs. national policy. The one Eagle appeal we went through consumed something on the order of 80 to 100 hours of my time and that of our committee and other leaders. I would decline to participate in a future appeal. I would submit a one-page letter, something on the order of magnitutde of Chris's first post in this thread and ask the committee not to contact me again. In fact, since the Scout has determined he cannot accept the judgement of the troop, I would strongly consider asking our COR to have the Scout removed from the charter. If the council and/or national wants to take over administration of the program for this young man, let them do so completely. Spend you time focusing on the Scouts who want to be in the program.

OPI -- Other Peoples' Insurance. Just like the rules for Safe Swim Defense are suspended if you are at a commercial pool with its own lifeguards and insurance, drivers all have their own insurance

My best ASM is registered as the troop's committee chairman. I hope I'm his most reliable committee member. It's all about teamwork and doing what's best for the program and boys. That said, we do have roles, but I get the fun ones

This must be one of those flashbacks they warned us about in junior high health classes. 'Cause this is EXACTLY the situation I faced my first year as SM -- same attitude, the lack of participation, bogus POR, failure to follow through on compromise solutions offered by the troop. Our contention was he hand not met the POR or active participation requirement and were ultimately upheld by the CAC. But I bet I wasted 80 hours -- time I could have spent with boys who cared -- meeting, documenting meetings and emails, writing summaries for the CAC, etc. Here's my advice: follow your conscience. What happens after that is no longer your problem.

Yeah, I caught hell a couple weeks ago because our troop suggests scouts keep a notebook to store things like advancement cards, blue card, and materials they are actively working on. And this is just a notebook you leave on the shelf at home to store things. Kids, especially middle school kid like you're working with equate all paper with homework. It's an uphill fight. The best you can do in this regard is plant the seed. As the boy get older they will discover the benefit of keeping up with these things and adopt some system for themselves. We have a number of older guys who carry notebooks, but I see a real correlation between that and maturity. The best you can do in this regard is plant the seed. Every year or two we'll as one of those older guys to bring their notebooks and show the younger guys how they use it and what the keep in it. Mostly goes in one ear and out the other, but you never know what will stick. Last January a local business gave the troop a stack of nice, notebook sized, month-at-a-glance planners. I deal for troop activities. We gave them to the PLC. Out of about 15 or so planners that went out, I still see four or five being at PLC meetings. That's an amazing success rate! Just like the real world, stuff like this is very individual. Ever walk through Staples around New Year's? Hundreds of options. Everyone has to find a system which works. From a practical standpoint, I think the troop needs to look at what the minimum level of record keeping required to function. Does every Scout really need to take notes on everything? I've tried for years to get the troop scribe to take decent notes at PLC meetings and it really hasn't worked (again, strong correlation between maturity and organization.) The best we ever got has been the SPL's (usually one of the older, most mature guys) takes his own notes and keeps track of things. Currently, I'm experiementing with Evernotes. Last winter our troop Scribe was basically AWOL and I started keeping minutes of PLC meetings on Evernotes for my own purposes. My new troop scribe is a pretty tech-savvy kid. He has just started the job and I've asked him to look at Evernotes and see if using them to keep and share PLC minutes is workable. I like the idea that the notes can be automatically shared to multiple people who can add and tweak them. But that's not a recommendation. We're just playing with it. There are obvious problems, like the next scribe not knowing how to type or have easy access to a computer. But I'll let you know.

I think key is to remember that the MB program is a council administered program It would be good here to read Eamonn's thread about BSA programs and policies being based on the assumption all other jobs, functions, policies and programs are being executed perfectly. The idea the the merit badges are a council program makes one of those assumptions. Here, and I suspect in many places, calling merit badges a council program is a joke. I've never heard of a counselor being recruited by or registered through the council -- it probably happens, but outside summer camp or a MB university, I've not seen it. Almost all exclusively serve one troop. The troop identifies the counselor, the troop handles the registration paperwork, the troop steers them toward training, the troop submits it's list of counselors for renewal annually. And let's talk about supervision and quality control. How is that maintained at the district? Are there special MB Commissioners who visit counselors and see how they are doing? Does the DAC chat with Scouts turning in their completed blue cards to see how it went? And suppose a SM complains about a counselor. Then what? Does the DAC launch an investigation? Is there a procedure? I'm guessing that at best the DAC has an uncomfortable conversation with the couselor then has to make a decision to actively remove the counselor or not. Compare that to how it works with troop counselors. Since many troop MBC are parents and existing troop volunteers, the troop leaders already know them and have a relationship with them. The Troop leaders, through informal chats, SM conferences, BORs and just the buzz among the Scouts hear about the quality fo the counseling. "So, how did you like Railroading?" "Oh, it was great. Mr. Smith's model layout is amazing. My dad and I are thinking about joining his model RR club." OR... "Eh! I just showed him my paperwork and he signed the blue card." Then what? Within the troop we just quietly find a new counselor and start referring counselor there. We've needed to do that twice since I've been SM. No stink, no confrontation, no one is removed from anything, just quietly handled and moved on. I agree with you guys that the direction of the merit badge program -- at least as suggested by the changes in the blue card -- contemplates Scouts earning MBs from some "council cloud" of MBC with little involvement from the troop. (But I just caught Beav's post, and that sure runs counter to the actual policy, eh? Kinda makes me wonder who is driving this? Does a minor tweak to the blue cards receive the same scrutiny as a rewrite of the policy manual? What's the review process for pronouncement on the advancement team blog? Hmmm....) This merit badge cloud a quaint idea, but it's brain dead. It falls in the same category as CORs controlling the council and having one commissioner for every three units. The only way this makes sense is for those who see a requirement-adding troll behind every Scoutmaster patch and believe the advancement program should exist in a zero-gravity, zero-drag environment. Edited to add -- you're right that 99% of the time the SM recommendation is followed and often, if it isn't, it's no big deal. But what about those few cases where the SM recommends a specific counselor for good cause? Maybe the counselor is a notorious pencil-whipper. Regarding parents, what if the Scout has earned 17 MBs from his dad already? I understand the zero-gravity/zero-drag crowd probably doesn't have a problem with that, but approach being suggested here means the unit NO ONE has the ability to stop that runaway train. And Calico -- I appreciate and understand your Ludditeness from time to time. I'm with you, brother. It took me about 8 years here to figure out italics, underlining and bold.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

You're absolutely right, E. I've sometimes thought that the badge for completing leader training should be a pair of rose-colored glasses.

Basically, if you really earned your Arrow of Light, it wouldn't be that difficult to breeze through Tenderfoot through First Class in a good long day .... At that point, it's just merit badges and POR's...." Bart -- please don't take this personally, 'cause I know you're just breezing through theoretical possibilities, but that absolutely has to be the worst possible Scouting program I can ever imagine. If anyone wants to understand what Beavah, I and others are arguing against, this is precisely it. Breeze through Tenderfoot through First Class in a day? Really? REALLY?

I typed a reply about 1:00 this afternoon and walked away without hitting "submit". I am reassured that my post was almost identical to Beavah's.-I won't repeat the rundown, but I will reiterate what most folks are say that you need to spend one program cycle observing the program before you can really jump in and comfortably make a contribution. As you note, right now you're not really sure you know what you don't know. Frankly, the biggest thing you can do as an ASM is to stay out of the Scouts' hair -- ESPECIALLY YOUR SON'S. On a campout, I wouldn't visit the Scouts' campsites unless I went with the Scoutmaster or a more experienced ASM. Just hang back and observe how they conduct themselves. Ask, "what do you need me to do" a lot. Don't be offended if the frequent answer is "nothing right now." That's how the program is supposed to work. Oh, by the way, I said you need to observe one program cycle. I used to think that meant one year, from crossover to crossover. Now that I've been doing this a while I've learned the real cycle runs from crossover to age 18. -- Anything else -- Learn to sit on you hands and bite your lip -- key skills for the adult leaders. And practice asking "Have you asked your patrol leader?" That is an appropriate answer to almost ever Scout question except, "do you think we should call 911?" New troop leaders first need to learn to do nothing. You've got to forget all those Cub Scout habits and solving problems, running things and making sure the program is up and running and the Cubs are having fun. In Boy Scouts those responsibilities belong to the boys. The real art of Scoutmastership is while appearing to do nothing, gently coaching the Scouts and guiding them in the right direction. In many cases it is a matter of leading by example. But it may be a well-placed questions here, a whispered suggestion there or -- what I really enjoy -- are the "so how do you think that went" conversations after an event. Good luck and enjoy the experience. Don't feel like you've got to go out and master everything at once. It will come.

Yeah, Base, you're going to want to clean that up. Do we get one for every Scout we recruit? Gonna need a bigger shirt. Actually, I'd wonder about any ol' Tom, Dick or Harry wearing one. But suzisk8 situation I don't have a problem with it whatsoever. If it helps you bring more Scouts into the program, go for it.

I don't have a problem with giving the adults the Totin' Chip patch. They didn't "earn" it because as adults they're not eligible for it and it's not for uniform wear, even for the boys. It's just a token of the training. I also think you can make the case that for training purposes you are modeling the behavior of recognizing the Scouts. Now if you have some dingy who sews it on his uniform and makes a deal out of having "earned" the patch, you probably want to question his participation on a number of levels.

A statment from his family reads, in part, "For those who may ask what they can do to honor Neil, we have a simple request. Honor his example of service, accomplishment and modesty, and the next time you walk outside on a clear night and see the moon smiling down at you, think of Neil Armstrong and give him a wink." I'll be right back. I'll be out in the yard for a few minutes..... http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/25/13479969-neil-armstrongs-family-wants-you-to-look-at-the-moon-and-give-a-wink?lite

You're on the proverbial road to hell paved with good intentions. You should have dropped it after giving the contact info to the membership chairman. Offering to pass out the flyers for the pack was really nice and helpful, but you REALLY should have stepped back when your offer wasn't accepted. Going to the school in uniform representing the pack without the permission of the CM was over the line. Yeah, what you tried to do was a great thing and should have at least been acknowledged with their thanks, but did I mention the road you're on?

Seems to me to be a high probability of winning the battle but loosing the war. I think you have to honor the CM's request. I've never served or been trained as a commissioner, but doing an end-run around unit leadership doesn't seem to be a good way for a commish to earn the trust of the unit leaders. I would even point out that it is not the purpose of the district or council to develop programming for individual scouts or their families. It is the responsibility of the unit to deliver programming and the responsibility of the district and council to support the unit's program. If the unit leadership decides their program is sufficient and meets the needs of their Scouts without taking advantage of the district/council activities, that is their judgement to make. On a practical level, it's pretty easy for a unit leader to feel as though these district events are being forced on them. Yeah, I know it's a popular now for councils to push a Cub Jamboree or Roundup in the fall as part of the membership effort. Supposedly these are events for the individual, but somehow all the phone calls keep coming back to the CM, and the expectation develops that "someone" in the pack needs to coordinate registration, then "someone" ought to organize transportation, and some kid's parents are working that day "someone" needs to take them..... It turns into a defacto pack program. And did I mention this is the week before the fall pack campout we've been bustin' our humps to put together and all of a sudden a third of our families have been siphoned off to the district event. And since your pack had umpteen Scouts attending, you really need to step it up and run one of the stations next year. Been there, done that, got the hat, patch, t-shirt and scars. I'd cut the lady some slack. Try to see it from her point of view. Maybe she overwhelmed and this is one more fire to put out. Or maybe she's had a bad experience with these programs, or just doesn't like other people messin' in her nest. She may not be the most tactful in the world, but give her the benefit of the doubt that she's doing what she believes to be in the best interest of her unit.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

If they're smart they'll ignore it. Just let it be. And if the pack is smart, when they accept a gay member, they'll keep their mouths shut too. If national's policy is effectively don't ask, don't tell, then if the potential members "don't tell" and the pack just submits the application with out making an issue, then national is in the dark and everyone gets along. But no. No one can mind their own business and go about living their lives. Everyone has to rub everyone else's nose in it. Frankly, I've reached the point of exhaustion on this issue. I really don't care anymore.