blw2

I'm usually on the side of "let the scouts decide" But I think this is one case where it's maybe helpful to offer guidelines up front (assuming the situation is starting form scratch and they don't have a clue or any established structure already) There are after all some rules or guidelines to any game right? Send them packing with a loose assignment.... "guys, go sort yourself into patrols...roughly around about maybe 6-8 scouts per patrol...more or less, and let me know when you've figured it out just so that I know....". Might even open up the number to make it rounder...as in "like maybe roughly 5-10" Gives them an idea but doesn't really restrict them much....just steering them away from patrols of two....or patrols of 20 on this topic, I think this is very interesting, from BP in his Aides to Scoutmastership.... well now I can't find the passage I was really looking for. Maybe it was in something else he wrote.... or maybe it was something from Greenbar Bill....anyway, it was about how boys will generally normally group up around about 6-8 kids..... it's sort of a natural size for a group of friends that run around together..... even non-scout groups.... - neighborhood "gangs" in the old fashioned sense (ie groups of friends in the neighborhood) - when kids break up into teams for sand-lot ball games, the teams will generally be 6-8 kids..... and this whole thing makes me wonder about the evolution of a lot of sports games... baseball for example fields what 3 basemen + 3 outfieilders + 1 pitcher + 1 catcher = 8.... then I wonder if the short stop wasn't an add later on.... since it seems like an afterthought - and when I think about how many friends most folks have.... I'd guess just based on my experiences and observations that on average folks have 1 to 3 really close friends + around about 3 more or so good friends. Any more friends than that & they are probably really more like good acquaintances anyway, these are interesting I think http://scoutmastercg.com/aids-scoutmastership/#ThePatrol System and http://scoutmastercg.com/aids-scoutmastership/#OneReason Why a Troop Should not Exceed Thirty Two

So your son is in the AOL den? That means he's nearly finished with cubs, right? How long are you planning to stay in this CM role? Have a younger son coming through perhaps? for what it's worth, as CM I found this website helpful - http://usscouts.org/bbugle2016-2017.asp and in hindsight I really wish that I would have paid a lot more attention here on this site as well as in my other reading, to the boy scout troop end of things, how boy lead works, the patrol method, etc... Even though it's not exactly part of cubs, it's where it's heading, and in my thinking I wish that I would have done a better job of applying it in the den and in the pack. I think it would have been more fun for the boys to be more involved rather than just an audience.... and would help the older scouts get ready for the troop. I found two books very interesting, as I was stepping away from the pack over to the troop, that I wish that I'd have read earlier Baden Powell's Aides to Scoutmastership - you can read it online here - http://scoutmastercg.com/aids-scoutmastership/ and Clarke Green's book "So Far So Good, a new Scoutmaster's Story" neither relate directly to cubs, but I think would be useful just the same....

.....and almost that loops this back around to where I thought this conversation would go when I started this topic.... the what comes first question.... or what is the one boiled-down refined word or concept that supports all the rest... wow what a tangent it's rolled into! Anyway, you might argue that with character, you will display and practice good leadership when appropriate.....just as a responsible person will be obedient when appropriate. I figured this topic would boil down to the one word, trait, or idea that will result in all points of the law being followed

I suppose there's a context question to the author's statement, that might make this whole thing more meaningful. I won't get into repeating them, but the statement was made as a precursor to some funny stories.... but what caught my eye about it was the underpinned philosophical chicken vs egg question.... that @@WAKWIB picked up on.... "Responsible" can very well be looked at as a result of following these ideals but it could also be looked at as the umbrella over the ideals...as the author indicated

Reading "Rocks In My Backpack". In the chapter I was reading today at lunch, the author said, and I'm paraphrasing... that if he had anything to do with it, he'd change Obedient to Responsible and then he goes on to make a pretty good case that there are times when being obedient isn't really the best path. The revolution and forming of the U.S., and the Civil Rights movement were given as examples.... His point being that a responsible person will be obedient.... except when it wouldn't make the best sense to be and these were followed by a very funny scout story... By the way.....It's a good book in my opinion, and I suggest it if you haven't read it. Anyway, i just thought this might make for an interesting discussion....

our scouts do the MCing and most of the talking....but they do the same script.... lighting candles for each rank even if no scouts are making that rank.... it's for them and done by them... but I'd bet if pushed they are probably bored with it too.... see the sillyness in it.....but they are just doing what has always been done.... or doing what they think the adults expect. even if given a choice, they wouldn't know any different and still assume this is what the adults want (& maybe they'd be right about that) I'd love to see what would happen if the adults would leave the room.

ha ha.... just cut to the chase and say "consult with a licenced contractor" DIY'ers aren't really 'allowed' to do much of anything if you get right down to it....

+ another one.... that's just about the only section in the magazine I'm sure to read. I regret not submitting my son for when he rescued his little sister in a hotel pool on a family trip. I would have gotten to her in time, but he was just a bit closer. He didn't want me to submit it....said it was nothing, anyone could have and would have done the same thing..... which was true, but still.....

and one more thought, looping back to the original question.... what would "traditional scouting look like"? I'm no historian like stosh and many of you are, so I can't claim to know what it was like way back in the day But I'm thinking it could probably be summed up with one statement Get the adult influence, interference, and involvement out of the way...and let the scouts have fun playing the game of scouting. Based on what I have read about what BP had written, and seeing some of the early requirements, some of which were posted here it seems that the adventure and opportunity was focused greatly on boys doing stuff with their friends..... with a fairly basic outline of the rules of the game.... and limited adults acting as an adviser, or "older brother" that simple structure and steering from the "older brother SM", gave the boys just enough nudge to get out there and put themselves into opportunities to grow and build character.... and more than that have fun doing it! the requirements were not much more but get out there and camp... a lot. there weren't volumes upon volumes of rules, procedures, and requirements.... clearly what the adults have brought to the party over the years

fair point.... the never ending repeat of requirements and activities could really bore a person. Just the other night they the last troop meeting.... "they" decided to set up first aid stations. Not sure who's idea it was, but I know "they" have a renewed focus on trying to get the younger scouts moving along with their advancement... anyway, I'll admit to not actually watching what they were doing... I got called out of the room for something... but I can make a really incredibly safe bet on what it was like...no doubt you all can too and even though I never discussed it with my son, I'm willing to bet he was bored with it. how many times can you sit through halfhearted "talks" about wrapping an ankle, or applying a pressure bandage...that may or may not actually have some half hearted attempt at "hands-on" practice I know that in scouts along, son has done the very same thing more times than i can count, and he's only been with the troop about a year.... several times in cubs...den meetings doing requirements a few times, twice at webelos akela weekend events while he was a cub, a few more times at cuboree type events, several times with the troop, 1st aid merit badge at summer camp last year, maybe at a U of Scouting class, those countless times at work for various annual 1st aid and responder courses through the years, during dive master training years ago, and once during IOLS (oh wait, those last few were me and not him, sorry...things are getting blurry.. ) i was just recently thinking along similar lines for the context of this discussion.... summing things up, and taking from something Clarke Green said in one of his podcasts..... we adult scouters are in the opportunity business.... bringing opportunity to scouts for adventure and chances to lead. Many scouters are like me...I've done a fair bit of adventuresome stuff in my day (flying airplanes, sailplanes, hang gliders, some backpacking, mountain biking)... but the majority is really tame stuff.... plop camping stuff, day tip paddling excursions, day hikes.... and even though I'd love to do more of that stuff now, both on my own and with scouts, real life gets in the way and there is only so much time......and add to that all the other reasons.... the program has been stripped in many ways for real adventure

I mentioned earlier than ours is a red cross course....only say that because the info page has the red cross logo https://www.nfcscouting.org/wilderness-firstaid I had just assumed that it's a course using a red cross curriculum and red cross certified instructor. (probably a volunteer is my guess, speaking to Stosh's point about cost...)

yes, i think that's an important element. Would require much more significant training and orientation I thing to garner a level of consistency....but that would be a great direction to go in my opinion. If son and I go off for an overnight backpacking trip in the local water management preserve, I would honestly think that should count..... but I can perhaps buy that family tailgate camping at the local state park nor KOA might not.... But the whole patrol camping thing you mention really is something I would love to see come alive in our troop. They just don't think like that.... not independent enough to go out on their own, and certainly doubt that it'll ever happen now that they have forced apart friend groups to form their "traditional patrols".... I could imagine some day maybe, that if I were to go out on that backpacking trip taht I mentioned earlier with son, he might be encouraged to invite along his buddies....and then it could almost be classified as a patrol outing perhaps....if I decided to stay home.....except they aren't all in the same patrol.

I was doing a little research, trying to find a CPR recert to fill the prerequisite for the council offered WFA course coming up next month found an online CPR/AED cert course I probably wouldn't ever consider such a thing, if I haven't already sat through more CPR and 1st Aid course than I could ever count ...but got me to wondering if an online one would even count. Then, I found this course offered at REI the weekend after the council's course https://www.nols.edu/en/coursefinder/courses/wilderness-first-aid-WFA/ it's $225 The BSA council one is $90, and seems to be American Red Cross Which would you take (aside from the price)? neither includes the CPR cert (which is beyond me why they wouldn't just include it)

Matches my experiences as well. These "overnights", as I called them were more popular that the camping trips and we tried to have at least one every year. I "chaired" one of the largest trips once, before i was CM to sleep on the aircraft carrier... we had the benefit of a track record of past trips to fall back on, except that no real records were ever kept so it was all still Kentucky windage... especially since group dynamics change through the years with some groups being very involved and responsible, with other not so much I have found though that these venues are used to working with groups, and they will usually work with you up until a reasonable cut-off time. The aircraft carrier as an example, they had several different bunk rooms available and would assign groups based on their size. We started working on best guesses.... eventually we would be assigned a bunk room that would fit our group. It would sleep x number of folks, and so there's a good chance there would be an extra bunk or two and so they would work with us to fill those spots. I think you've got to just take your best guess in the end but I think hedgehog nailed one important element... Just about all you can do is Have an early announcement to save the date set a reasonable window to give folks time to consider and commit. set a deadline to commit and pay and then here's where the guessing comes in, dependent on how loosey goosey your group is... make a decision if you want to round up a bit and reserve a few more spots and take a gamble. and then there's tough love in the end.

but then full names will be published in the newspaper, will they not, for participation in sporting events, etc....... or even if a story was ever made about the eagle scout and his project. I would say in this particular case, I would completely yield to that specific scout and his parents... If John Smith's parents are ok with it, and John himself doesn't have an objection, why not leave it?

kindof a funny semantics game when you think about it.... what is camping? why is canvas required? and if you start to think about how folks lived a few generations ago, we might call their normal life full time camping.... it was certainly rougher living than I experience when I go camping in my nice REI tent sleeping on my thermorest.... BSA requirements and writings aside....and looking more at intent....I kinda feel like a good general definition for camping might be temporary living while en route. Might indicate a certain "doing without" your normal stuff. I kinda like how one of you put it earlier, regarding the intent. And re. the aircraft carrier.... I led a pack trip to the USS Yorktown several years back. As a pack we also did several other trips like that... I always called them overnighters. Slept with the whales at Sea World, under the shuttle Atlantis at KSC. honestly, I don't see a hill of beans worth of difference in the experience when compared to a camp at the local BSA scout reservation on trips where we eat in the dining hall.....except a certain exposure to nature. Nature gives an opportunity for a certain kind of freedom, adventure,and life lesson to a boy, as BP wrote.... but a very similar experience can be had with some of these overnights, too..... and when you roll back around to the earlier point made about the intention of comradere with other scouts... well I could certainly buy into the idea of considering the bigger picture if it wasn't for a scout that missed every traditional camp out..... But, a rule is a rule.... so back to the semantics....

is should have added.... I think there is way to much complication..... simple requirements simple bullet points basic and easy to understand....and more experience based (I like the camp 50 number of nights in a tent you've set up by yourself). In those few words, there will be oh so much more experienced and learned.... and therefore required.....but never stated as separate points....& I see nothing wrong with that. You don't need to outline stuff like "present yourself ready for camping, with the appropriate gear.." That stuff would have automatically been covered time and time again in those multiple camping trips with the SM to reach those 50 nights! keep it simple! so you are saying that to get WB, a scouter must have been a scout as a youth, and have achieved the rank?

yeah, I don't get that one either... don't really see an issue with instant recognition. I do think the focus has been muddied and lost. Way too much paperwork way too much classroom and sitting around explaining and talking I love remembershiff's post contracting the camping MB requirements!

oh, and no kits

Your story really reminds of the time we had a boy "join" our den, just a week or two prior to the derby. He had moved from out of town, came to like one meeting, maybe two. I think mom had filled out the application, but had not paid dues yet.... seems like they were still in moving madness, dad wasn't even in town yet....something like that so anyway, he enters a car in the derby. based on the level of completion, and the look of it....and maybe something that was said.... I just had this gut feeling that the car was last years car....maybe even older brother's car. so he won some award, most creative or some such thing.... took a trophy. and then a week or two later they backed out and decided to not join, and never paid dues. I've had a hard time letting that one go. I have often thought that this would be a great way to do it. The only real down side that I can think of...and it's not much of one.... is that the pack wouldn't have a chance under the sun of placing in the district or council level races. For us, I did more than I should have for son's derby cars.... but I do feel there was some benefit. I dusted off my engineering degree, and even bought that video "physics and the pinewood derby" really tried to use it as a teaching moment for science. Son had a hand in everything, creating the design, making every cut, etc.. (even his little sister did a lot of it with him...), but I pushed him along more than i should have and did more of the work than I should have. His last car was all him except I did a little work on the wheels and axles for him. He really made too little effort on it, but he got the weight right, and with smooth running wheels he placed way higher than he should have for the effort, if memory serves went all the way to the council race. I'd like to think the teaching paid off a little bit....

I'm curious when re-encating in uniform or when wearing as a purely functional / casual item such as when doing yard work how do you tie or otherwise fix the necker? assuming no woggle, right?

yes Stosh, but I never tried to dump on the DL's... that was my point about protecting them...or trying to. I just needed them there to coordinate things....like at the pack meeting so that the skits would run smoothly without the 5 minute dead time delay while the DL teaches his guys the skit on the fly and I stand there trying to do a song and dance because I had no idea they were going to need that..... that sort of thing.... Yeah, i binged watched Vikings to the point they had up on amazon prime a few months back. Good show! What I'm doing now is starting to think through some backpacking trips and considering getting back into that.... if the scouts won't go, maybe I will!

hey, that's an interesting twist thanks for the tip, might look into that one! and I agree about the hands on. I've sat through so many 1st aid classes and certs through the years....but I never feel I get much out of them. The best was a community 1st and and cpr class I took once, an all day thing. The good about was the teacher was a fairly young EMT paramedic. He told lots of war stories and really mentally put you there..... as in really how hard do you have to hit a baby on the back to dislodge something they are chocking on.... you can read about it and even practice....but not of that is real. I feel like i was as close to real as possible without doing a ride along....

$95 CPR is a prerequisite Yikes.... only 2 years. bummer

yeah, for sure Stosh...grass is always greener.... We are in reach for some decent SCUBA, although tucked up in my part of Florida we still have a bit of a drive to get to the nicer stuff. I did a lot of SCUBA over the years when I lived down Tampa way.... mostly over to the West Palm and Ft Lauderdale area, and the Keys.... closer to cave diving here, but that never was my thing. Did it once with my Trimix instructor, he was a big caver. Interesting for sure.... but that's another story. Also did a fair bit of paddling over there too. Several good places to go around tampa and clearwater Always wanted to go to that everglades backcountry platform camping you linked to.... and the 10,000 islands, but never made it. Maybe I'll get interested in paddling again some day...only a 6-7 hour drive from where I am now. For scouts though, the thing I'm interested in encouraging them to do is a long paddle down the Apalachicola or Suwanee. I picture doing a 50 miler or longer as a make-your-own summer camp some day. I keep suggesting it to my son. Maybe he'll like the sound of it some day, enough to get his friends interested and they can make a go of it.