blw2

Yeah, I haven't really developed my ideas on this...but kindof what I was picturing was similar to Bear's current show. Mike Rowe might be a great candidate for it.... but similar to Bear's show where now he takes a famous city person out for an adventure....but instead it could be going out with a scout or scouts as guests on a real adventure maybe mix it up with adults who were scouts as a kid as guests along with the adventure, they could touch on all sorts of things....conversations about what scouting has done for that person, fun memories, all sorts of things.... maybe each episode, or some of them, could be visiting a different troop on a troop outing.... But as I'm "thinking out loud", I am realizing that before any of that would work, it would have to be real adventures that scouts really do....and since a large portion of what most scouts do is sit and listen....there are some fundamentals that need to change before my idea would have any teeth. Oh well....nevermind.... Well regardless.....I still think a non-boardroom type at the helm would do wonders for PR and add potential and yes Eagledad, that Scouts South Africa add is a real heartstring puller for sure!

I still say they need to get a Bear Grylls type at the helm...even if not really at the helm as nothing more than a figure head.... somebody on a TV show doing really cool stuff every week. Somebody not acting...yes I'm aware of some of what Bear has been accused of, but I still believe he is capable and still does a lot of that stuff.... even if he is doing it now with a full production crew.... rappelling, minimalist adventure camping, and the rest.... somebody that has a respectable resume in the field, somebody that is very personable, very positive, and that can be an exciting role model I think somebody like that, doing the things the OP suggested could well be the ticket....(doing that stuff in place of the famous person interview stuff Bear currently does..) Could be something not all that different from what he's doing now.....just a different twist. Post it on youtube if you can't get it on network TV. The BSA needs to get their heads out of the boardroom and into the woods. My son has lost all interest in scouting. He only says the meetings are boring, that's all I can get out of him....but I know that a majority of the outings are boring too. His summer camp experience is the highlight example, but others are to some degree the same.... classroom, bookwork, adult driven advancement. He could care less about any of that stuff. The adults, all the way from national to the local volunteers, need to take a HUGE step backwards away from the campfire circle and let the scouts do what they want to do....

I'll have to admit to not really reading the whole thread thoroughly The issue I see is Many of these "positions" really aren't positions. We have a historian, and a librarian, and many of the others....but these guys really don't do much of anything if at all. They are empty jobs, the scouts know it, so what good does that do anyone? I really think it's bad to try to have every scout in a position just becasue I think it would be better to let the scouts work it out and the PLC could help scouts that need a POR by helping them to find actual positions that need to be filled.....or to make sure the guys that need and want it are first in line the next time a position opens

I think at the WEBELOS age especially...but really for all ages..... they act up when they are bored ....Idle hands, and all of that..... You said the webelos are disrupting when other dens are getting awards? one solution might be to involve the webelos den in the award presentation.... they are, after all the older scouts that the younger ones would hopefully be looking up to. Give them a chance to be that role model we hope they are. Something I tried to do some of when I was CubMastering, was to involve the scouts more....and to get them out of their seats. Sadly, I didn't do it enough and wasn't all that good at it.... I tried to use the scouts, especially the older scouts, to do things like pick teams, pass things out... But I wish that I had done more. After getting pushed away from pack life and looking more into troop life, I benefited from hind site and realized that embracing the patrol method....even down at the wolf or bear level.... really could have been a game changer. Let the scouts make decisions of what to do and how, let them DO a lot more. I see that a huge amount of the issues in the cub days could have been at least partially resolved. The whole program, and how we presented it, involves all together too much sitting, too much inside, too much getting talked to. I feel your pain though. Something I always struggled with was the kid acting up when his parent was sitting in the back of the room. I never wanted to attack it head on because I felt it was that parent's job to deal with it....they rarely did. But in the context of scouts, instead of attacking, I feel the better approach much of the time anyway, might be to call that kid to the front and give him a task.... but it can't be a task for task sake.....but instead something fun, and preferably something that gives that scout some responsibility and authority to learn from.

I've been wondering the same.... Hope all is well.

that question "Is the program the SM is running beneficial/harmful to the scouts." is an interesting one.... something I have struggled with going back and forth for a long time. I read a while back in something that BP wrote that went something like this... every boy can get something out of scouting as long as the SM does no harm. ​I've flipped and flopped on the idea that "harm" is being done by not putting on the theoretical best program.... scouts are leaving, scouts don't get the full experience.... but I've settled on this statement form BP to mean that even without the most perfect program imaginable, the boys are getting something good from scouting...as long as there's not some "abuse" happening....and it's better for them to be able to experience scouting on some level than not at all. they all won't stay....but then again they all never would anyway.

Agreed...... guessing, but I'd imagine my son would have been woo'd by some really cool structures in his first year or two of scouts.... Seeing the older scouts build some really cool towers and useful structures I'd imagine would seem really cool...especially when coupled with discovering a good scout lead freedom to come up with their own ideas and make it happen without too much too much adult influence and interference.... Who knows, that might have been just that one more thing it would have taken to trip his interest level over that threshold that is currently holding him back! so you idea to make pioneering more "accessible" could be golden!

yes ankylus, i have seen some of those things such as knot relay. In my thinking some of those types of things could really spice things up. I've even tried to put a bug in son's ear a few times to take it back to the scouts. He was even PL for a time, in the "NSP"...but he was young and not assertive in the PLC. In fact the way he tells it they blew him off about a thing or two, so he didn't bother with any more suggesting.... And I have suggested patrol outings and activities man times too helpfultracks.... again, he was never very assertive. Honestly, I don't think he ever really bought into the idea. I'm not quitting exactly....not yet anyway. I guess when i made this post originally, i meant that more in the context that I give up caring so passionately anymore. I'm very interested in scouting, doing scouting stuff, and I continue to be very interested in what scouting "could be" for my son. Yes, I'm registered as a scouter. I have bled scouting for something like 6-1/2 years now.... I wore just about all the hats at the pack level at one time or another, and with the troop now, I'm treasurer.... not because that's what i wanted to do, it what the CC needed. I'm fully trained as a SM (according to the BSA's requirements anyway) I've even suggested a few times to my son that he might consider trying to pull together a patrol campout or outing...and maybe I would be happy to help do a backpacking trip or other thing if they wanted to work that through the troop and the SM.

I used to read and listen to a lot of stuff over at scoutmastercg.com sidetrack .... but does anyone happen to know if Clarke is ok? I haven't heard anything new published in a while.... Anyway, he had a few podcasts and maybe some blog posts that talked about how there really isn't need for a lot of ASM's. His perspective was that all communications should be with SM, and if he was unavailable then the ASM would be his surrogate but the ASM was only to repeat what the SM said...nothing more. Maybe 2 ASM's was all...and one of those would be the "#2" sort of in grooming to take SM eventually. Now this is how I remembered it, so it could be off a bit At first I thought this sounded very odd and off putting even....but I do admit I see some logic in it. Anyway, it might be worth it to you, to do a little digging around over there for podcasts and posts re. the roles of ASM's. I went ahaed and did a little digging. here's one to get you started. not sure if this is the one I'm remembering or not. Think ha had a few things on the topic... http://scoutmastercg.com/podcast-284-assistant-scoutmasters/

yeah, much of the things mentions don't happen patrols having a place patrols not meeting patrols not competing And when teh patrols do meet....it's to plan menu for campout, or to give the concept lip service.... This is a great example of something that does get done...but at a level that I would call lip service at best.... I have observed a few times when the SPL will call out "tonight, we will work on xyx" it's usually something like...help the new scouts with knots or, practice 1st aid skills.... Then it becomes a re-hash of things they have heard a thousand times. I remember watching a 1st aid one once when my son was still barely out of WEBELOS.... he had already sat through the same lecture and the same minimal hands on exercises probably 20 times before already....through multiple cub meetings, at webelos camps, 1st aid merit badge at summer camp... etc.... Result: IMMEDIATE glossy eyes. problems include "adults requiring it" and their hearts aren't into it no inspiration they really don't know what to do to step it to the next level, so they just do what they've seen before....

but for advancement (or anything else really), shouldn't he be contacting his PL? (or I suppose in some cases perhaps you could argue to include the "instructor" or "Troop Guide" if you you used either of those, or maybe another more senior scout)

I posted this in another thread but it relates to this one.... I don't know how to link them.

reading Stosh's post about "it has been decided" and thinking about the thing I mentioned in my first post here about my wife's conversation with the other moms and how as many times as I've tried to brainstorm with her.... and also discuss how this could be good for our son.... and how the whole patrol method boy led thing works, giving them freedom to learn, fail, grow, and lead and how after all the hundreds of times I've made that point in many different ways.... but she never heard it. yep, I'm officially singing a different tune now.....family scouting is going to be just what these guys need.....not so much....

I've gotta say I would tend to agree with that idea of ditching weekly meetings at the moment. I know there's a trade off though....idle hands and all of that. Actually I'd say that is a small part of son's current attitude. He started feeling this way in the spring, missed a few meetings. Then didn't go to summer camp in June , then our troop take off the month of July (that's one of those adult steered scout choice things I think.... yeah sure, the scouts decided... but that's another story) Anyway, my point is he's had a long break.... and now talk of going back to meetings is just that much more painful.

exactly what I was thinking..... yeah, It's a tough road..... near impossible for a single person to turn the big ship alone... so the "give up" attitude.... problems there... right or wrong he's soured on scouting...also he would barely look at other troops before because they were unfamiliar, no friends, etc.... surely wouldn't happen now. There are a couple of troop sorta near, one is a definite no, the other is a complete unknown, doesn't know anybody, etc.... Seems to me that advice would only work for a scout that is otherwise gung ho for scouting I have been dreaming as a personal goal now for a while to get back into backpacking. I've been slowly gearing up and occasionally dropping hints to him and his sister about maybe joining me. I think I've even posted here before about a loose plan I have to hike an AT section, or some other trail in the mountains for a week or so next summer...and I've been off an on about suggesting that he invite friends along &/or try to make it a scouting or patrol thing... I'm also thinking about introducing him to mountain bike trail riding and he's done some kayak paddling before, but maybe we could do more of that. maybe invite some of his friends and do an overnight paddle trip someplace... But your idea of doing something INSTEAD of a meeting..... interesting thought......

back when I read this book, I felt that it should be required reading http://scoutmastercg.com/far-good-new-scoutmasters-story/ along with this one http://scoutmastercg.com/aids-scoutmastership/ Otherwise, I'd think words form you affirming him would do him wonders.... I mean just a private "good job" every now and then just so he knows you are not questioning & judging him or what he's doing

a bit of a rant I suppose.... I have tired of dreaming for a program as it "could be" and seeing so many ways that the scouters squash what I would consider an ideal. My son has tired of scouts. He does not want to go to the meetings...says he doesn't want to go just to talk about what they are going to do. The meetings are boring...and I don't blame him a bit. I don't want to go either...and I have really stayed out of them all along anyway. I think he has given up too.... well honestly he never really felt empowered to try really do in the first place....even though i have encouraged him over and over again to speak up and make a change. He told me the other day that he liked cub scouts better. I was shocked. He said it's because they actually did stuff in the meetings. there was always an activity to do, something fun. In scouts, they plan for the next trip, talk about the next trip, or listen to someone talk about something they don't care about. I think I understand why I was so shocked, is probably because I remember in a way that he does not. He has lost site of all the talking and school work type stuff they did in cubs. he's now looking at it through rose-colored glasses. I could be wrong, but I also am pretty sure I see some things about troop life that he doesn't see. You see, even when it's scout led, it's still so very strongly adult influenced. You have scouts setting rules and parroting things because they think that is what is expected.... well in many cases it is what is expected by the folks in the back of the room. He can't really understand how it might be if those folks in the back of the room would leave. There has never really been anything I could do in my position to do anything about that...and honestly I no longer have much energy to care. That's why I "give up". I'd rather just go for a hike on my own. and another thing.... The whole thing of coed used to be something I wanted to see....but now that it's finally on the horizon I'm not so sure. I don't see such a problem with girls in scouts for the most part....well depends on how implemented...but I'm doubtful it can be done well. More than that though, where I see the potential problem is with the moms. We have some mom scouters and MC's that bring a wonderful energy and willingness to "do"....and we have some dad scouters that struggle with jumping in too much now and then...but more an more I'm coming around to that old "sexist" idea that boys need a place to be boys...and they need male role models in a setting that is not girlied-up My wife for years now has basically built a wall about scouts. She has never really wanted to hear me talk about scouts, shuts down whenever I'm trying to vent or brainstorm with her. recently I asked her if she had talked with any of son's friends mom about how well they are liking scouts. Well later, DW showed me the texting conversation, and it is very clear she has not "heard" anything i've said over the last few years. She still goes back to what she observed in cubs, where us dad scouters were not good disciplinarians. They think that maybe they need to get more involved now because of that. She also think that I would be happy if my son would eagle....when all I've ever said is that I'd really like to see him make 1st class.... well of course eagle would be great but that's not my dream.... Anyway, I don't know.... I guess this thing cemented for me that many moms will never get it. They really don't even care to try. Anyway, I pretty much started this last year, but I'm more or less done trying to really push son to the meetings. I think he's about ready to quit. We skipped last night's meeting. As treasurer, I'll really need to go next week and I've told him that I'd really like him to come with me then.....but in my mind I figure he's paid up through to January recharter. If he doesn't want to go to any meetings or outings till then...ok by me. When that point nears I'll probably pay his dues so he can go as an inactive member for a year, and at the same time resign as treasurer but stay on as an inactive MC...I figure that way at least he'll see that he has the option to just take a break and go back later if he wants. frustrating for me....but it IS HIS journey, not mine

no set rules as far as I know....email is encouraged although based on my experience and observations scouts just wait for a meeting generally. I can guess the reason for such a "rule" is because of the old fogey opinion that kids don't know how to talk on the phone anymore. It's correct I think....but then I'm an old fogey.... IMHO though I think it's a mistake to make hoops for the scouts to jump through Some of our scouters have set other hoops, such as a demand that the committee be emailed for a requested BOR 1 week minimum prior. Just a silly needless hoop in my opinion.

I can say that in my relatively short time as Troop Treasurer, we've had a few scouts now make eagle, and I have not seen 1 nickle from any of it. Not in or out. Honestly I have no idea how they are raising their money for the projects.

I couldn't agree more about the friend thing. It's one of the many nuances that i was trying to get at earlier....and it's so nuanced that it's hard to even put a finger on which ones will work and which ones won't.... I think this is another very interesting almost "outside" variable. I have often thought just how totally great it would be to have a scout hut. A place where the unit could have total access and total control. A place to hang up their pictures, trophies, treasures and finds, etc... instead, I guess we are more like what I guess to be the situation that most troops are in. We fight to get on the CO's schedule for room access, competing against many other groups and events for the space. We're not even always in the same room. We have nothing hung up or displayed, except the troops flags which get squirreled away in this corner or that closet....We are lucky to have a place to park our trailer and a few feet of shelf space in the CO's shed.

good thought! I think it's dynamic, and extremely complex one small portion of it is great leaders......FOR the particular scouts/family/community what is great for one isn't great for another. Similar to how we all have people we like and others that we just don't. Some we get along with easily and some not so much...and for everyone that can be different. I think the variables are broad, and finely nuanced...including things like individual scouts cliques or groups of scouts.... does he have his core friends in scouting, or are some of his close friends not in scouting... families schedule family support family interest the CO scouters' style scouters' interests and abilities (do you have scouters that encourage the types of activities that fit the scouts...fit the group....fit the family....fit the geographical area...etc..) scheduling nuances (how it compares with other things in the community, with the familys' work schedules, etc...) competing interests available and on and on....

I thought this was going to be a thread about the girls coming into BSA Seriously, in my yard my nemesis is "torpedo grass" aka "bullet grass". It's an invasive, and I'm pretty sure it will survive a nuclear holocaust... If it were softer underfoot I'd be happy to have it for a lawn. To my knowledge though the troop hasn't ever done anything like this as a project but if they were to, no way could it be against bullet grass.

no backing for me.... in fact as I think about heading up to the mountains to do some, i've been considering doing some warm up hikes more local.... but it just doesn't appeal all that much to me even in the winter here.... sure there are some nice places, but... even just daily living, I keep reminding myself that I don't belong in Florida.... the topography is all wrong for me...the climate all wrong.... the architectural style of the homes is all wrong.... I don't care for the beach..... how did I get here??? Yeah, I've had a long standing personal rule against tent camping in the summer here.... up until recently anyway. Had a few conversation before and after son's first summer camp experience summer before last. He really didn't like that the troop goes so far away....and as I think about it more I agree. I really think that is one of those adult driven but scout decided things....(the adults plant the seed that it's too hot and that we should go to the mountains...) I tend to want to agree, except there would be benefit in staying more local...and truthfully it is doable if you don't catch a bad week of severe heat. Lots of time it's almost bearable out in the evenings, bring a fan and a good bug net, it could work....

I am mostly pro coed and against separate programs.... but this disrespectful and awkward thing is interesting to me. I think it represents a) an example of how boys will be when let to be boys...and their aint nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong IMO with mens' clubs and the like as an extention to this idea... b) an example of some very un scout-like behavior So it is an interesting quoting to keep alive. On one hand there's no reason they can't get along together, they do it in school and elsewhere. I'd rather my son meet and interact with more girls that aren't his sisters and their friends... but I also want them all to have a place where they can relax too... a balance

General thought I have reading this thread.... when these comments come up about how this will ruin the program.... I wonder what the folks around the rest of the world think, with their long standing and apparently successful (at least in as much as much as the BSA is successful) coed programs From my perspective.... a lot of guys just want that too. I'm pretty comfortable that my son would agree. he doesn't care about the ranks really, he doesn't care about the meetings or hoops. From what I can tell none of them care about the rah rah patrol yells and the like... What he does care about is camping with his friends and doing fun stuff.....well not even camping exactly, it's really the fun with friends that he cares about. Now, our troop hasn't shown to be a rah rah troop. I've thought that the guys might have a more positive attitude and thereby have more fun if they did have some of that team spirit....but in my opinion they'd get all that just by having tighter patrols and doing freestyle FUN and Adventure TOGETHER I'm reminded of a time at the 65 ft climbing wall at a WEBELOS Akela weekend. Some WEBELOS were at the top trying to get get the courage up to step over the edge to rappel down.... on the ground looking up, were some parents and scouters.... the female scouter... a mom...."It's ok baby, you don't have to do it".... repeated over and over and over and over, without pause between.... for several minutes. the male scouter.... a dad..... mostly silent. Watching. A few times would encourage with a "you CAN do it!" guess which kid went down the stairs.... ....The other landed saying he'd never do that again...but had the biggest smile on his face one can imagine.