blw2

YES. as part of the thing I'm referring to, there was a lesson about external locus vs an internal locus..... am I motivated by others opinion (external locus) or by my own performance or sense of accomplishment (internal locus) What you are writing (praise vs no praise) is the same as the point in my reference.... but it's really just symantics around the definition of the word praise. In my example, praise points more to the external locus.... or what I think.... "you are so smart."....it's what I think of you. vs "You really worked hard, you must be proud." which was defined as encouragement by focusing on the internal locus.

so it really seems by this snapshot that what we are doing is not really off base at all.... based on this, it makes my concern a lot less, and my job frankly a bit easier...... to just carry on I mean. I do think that as I collect more data, I'll probably work towards more of an actual cost model, but I'm just keeping that in the back of my mind for the time being.... ha ha, we do $1 a week, but the same idea. It's the only money that the scouts really ever touch. The adult's idea in it was a way for the "boys" to learn and practice some responsibility. Honestly, I think the practice has no teeth.... especially since adults were holding the money each week, and the money would eventually just go into the general troop account.. I was really latching onto this idea though, of letting the scouts take on a bigger role with the money when I first started as treasurer. Thinking that working with/through the scribe was the one way that as Treasurer I could help spur along "boy-lead" and such.... Something i read from Clarke over at scoutmastercg.com.... or maybe it was during one of the online chats..... anyway, something got me to re-thinking this idea. I'll paraphrase based on my understanding, but the takeaway that I got was the idea that all this money stuff really isn't what scouts is about. That it's better for the adults to just handle the money and fun raising, so that the scouts can get on with doing what scouts do. When I think of it that way, the character building we are doing here really does have more to do with camping, outdoors, and using the patrol method. the money is just static in the background. A distraction and bother really. For our $1 a week, our money goes into patrol envelopes. I have given responsibility of those over to the scribe, rather than keeping them myself. Hoping that the scribe would take on more responsibility with the PLC in determining what to do with the money, maybe using it for patrol grub rather than collecting from the campers for each trip.... but so far it really hasn't taken off. It's still just static...... & honestly now I'm not convinced that the idea is worth saving. I'm probably the only one on the committee thinking this way, but if it were up to me I'd take that money and let the patrols spend it, then stop the practice giving the scouts more time to do the stuff that Scouts do. They'll learn math and money in school &/or elsewhere..... someplace better suited for that lesson. In scouts they are having fun in the outdoors, learning character and leadership, ideally without knowing that they are....

my guess "Hey, I'll bet you $10 you can't do...."

in another thread: So this "fear of failure" reminded me of something I recently read about Praise, encouragement, and discouragement. and how praise is a bad thing. In a study, kids were given math tests one group were praised "you are so smart" the other group was encouraged "you must be so proud of your hard work" Then later, these groups were given a chance to take an even harder test. The encouraged group said, sure I'll give it a try but the praised group didn't want to chance tarnishing their smart status .... so I suppose you could say they had a "fear of failure" there was of course more to it than that, but this was more or less one takeaway.....

welcome!

As treasurer, I'm struggling with what seems to be inconstant practices in what we charge individuals, and I'm struggling with what to suggest to the committee. So I figured I'd check with my friends here to have a better feel for what other troops do. Do scouts in your troop pay for camp registration fees for things like camporee? summer camp registration? fees or admission for monthly camp outs? grub money for the monthly camp? attending things like NYLT? registration for MB fairs? etc Do scouters in your troop pay for the same things? or does all of this come out of troop funds (dues and or fundraising)? Our troop is sitting on what seems to me to be a health bank account balance, and that just doesn't seem right to me. we charge individuals (scouts and scouters) for any registration fees for camporee and similar we charge scouts nominal $10 or $20 (depending 1 night or two)for grub for the monthly camp troop pays for gas in getting to the monthly trips troop pays 50% of registration for individuals going to NYLT and we don't charge specifically for things like state park admission for the monthly camp outs.... we let any adults attending monthly camp outs settle up amongst themselves for groceries

I forgot to mention the best part.... as we started out of camp towards the parking lot, the first of the squall blew in...... as we dashed through the woods to the lot, the trees were leaning and the rain just started to fall as we reached the cars..... It was truly an adventure. yes it is suprising. even sometimes it's the tradition of doing they even that they don't like..... but they want to do it anyway. human nature sometimes I think it's because it's really the only way we have seen it done before, and so even if we are told about a different way, it's somehow easier or more comfortable to stick with what we know. I see that a lot in scouts. Change can be hard.

not really the kind of thing this thread is about, but your mention of "fun day experience" reminded me of what will probably stand out as a highlight memory to our scouts.... even though it's not really a "scout" activity During summer camp, we had a couple storm fronts roll through. The fist one caught several of us in camp, where we hunkered down under the dining canopy watching a gully washer run through our camp blowing tents wide open and generally soaking out the place. When the next storm was coming (we were watching radar) it was the night the camp had set up as troop's cook in their sites with food provided by camp....and it was just as were were about to start KP.... so the SM says, we can hunker down hear and try to cook in the rain, or we can go to town and hunker down in a restaurant, so we took the scouts to Pizza Hut! There was another troop there with the same idea and the scouts really had a blast. The reason I bring this up.... the troop activity wouldn't necessarily have to be at the scout reservation. Is there a whitewater rafting tour company nearby? Maybe a horseback riding place?

except I would twist this to patrols instead of just the "troop". I really wish in our troop, that we all thought more in terms of patrols I'm guessing a lot comes down to the desire of having it already done and set-up for them, rather than having to think it up and make it happen. Good or bad depending on perspective, but there is something to be said for ready-made and spoon fed once in a while.... I was thinking that it might be very tough if even not possible, to get troop or patrol time at the range, for example. Last summer, we had many scouts (and me too) than never or rarely got into the lake as an example. There just wasn't much open free time available.

yeah, it seems like a great idea in theory anyway. Do you have any examples of what they were doing for the afternoon program? What sort of troop activities? I personally did not like the overly structured and full agenda of summer camp, and think a troop would be better served to do their own thing..... a week on the Appalachian trail for example. Perhaps a down day or two thrown in there for some skills work, swimming, or something else... It seems like scouts and adults alike, are both so ingrained to think that summer camp must be a merit badge school.

One of my negative memories from my days as a scout was getting tortured by the "camp police" about not having a cold fire pit. You had to dig down .... but you could still feel some warmth in the damp sand.... so we were rejected repeatedly.... and I think we lost points for something or another My buddy and I had to worked for what seemed like an eternity to get it "correct".... for what as a boy, and even now as an adult, seems just plain silly to me. We were breaking camp and just wanted to go home..... It was a case of following the "book" and not common sense.

exactly how I feel every time I sit on any BOR and the other committee folks ask it....."unnecessary road bump"

in my way of thinking, the sign is simply a show of respect so I'm not seeing it's use as such of a problem. It has been a while since I've read the scout handbook, and how it defines the sign, it's purpose, and use.

oh that is rich. i can't believe I didn't see it before! but in a way that's kinda-sorta almost what our troop does.... except it's not called "patrol" meetings the Troop meets and the SPL does basically the bidding of the adults (more or less) then the scouts go outside and run around a while, doing only they know what.... then they come back to close the flags and clean up....

I was thinking about this over lunch, so I'll have to add to what was going to be my only comment to this.... At 8, a kid might know if they like pink clothes, or if they lean towards blue. They probably know if they want sequins or lace on their clothes, or not. But that's not really having anything sexual orientation is it?

I'll only respond to that by saying that when we have an 8 year old that is even considering "desired gender" or really anything to do with sexual desire well, then we've got bigger societal problems.

I gotta say I think @@Beavah hit the mark in his comment about tomboys. What in the blazes does an 8 year old know about being a trans-gender??? Really!!!???!!! She's a tomboy, nothing wrong with that on any level..... and some adult is really screwing that kid up putting those sorts of labels and ideas into her head. So sad.

sorry, i have no idea...... although I think I remember seeing that knife in the shop or catalog at some point a long while ago..... but I would start searching on ebay. for "scout hatchet", or similar terms. I think you can set up automatic searches and get emailed whenever similar items are posted. Almost surely will come across one sooner or later....

as it should be, true enough..... but we all know how it is.... a person puts some time and effort into thinking about what needs to be done, about how they want to do it, come up with an order of events in their minds, maybe even put together a power point or something.... bring along some props (like maybe some rope to practice knots with) Then it is very hard and often unlikely that they will put all that aside. I've seen this done more than I can count off by adults in various settings (not just scouts), and a few times with scout instructors and such too.... so it's certainly not hard to imagine

I like the term "The Patrol of mostly New Scouts" Rather than NSP. Kinda goes along with the concept you're outlining Stosh, but yet doesn't lock anything in.... that these boys must be a member of it, or that that boy can't be a member of it.....none of that. And the bit earlier about staying out of the way..... and letting the patrols meet and work as patrols I feel like that makes nothing but sense..... and add to it what I think is a big key is that the bounds of the game need to be defined as such so that the scouts know that the patrols are like the teams. They can and should be meeting on their own and doing activities on their own. I feel like this is being missed in our troop. This sort of maps out how our troop has rolled for my son for this first year But the key part about them acting as a patrol isn't really there beyond planning the meals for camp outs. well...and that last sentence needs to be modified..... with the new requirements, most now are scout and one or two are 2nd class or nearly so The guides and trainers are frustrated because the new guys don't seem to listen when they are read to out of the book. The new guys are having fun sometimes, but not all that much. and they don't really seem all that concerned about advancement and all that "stuff" As I am seeing it in our troop they (adults) are leading "boy lead patrol method".... at least the best interpretation that they can make given what they know but they (adults) are missing some important variables in the equation I only write this as an example, because it's probably a norm for a lot of troops out there.....

Stosh that was my post you quoted in your OP. and I agree with you. IN fact your post pretty much echoed the conversation I had with my son. Actually several various conversations.... You wrote, " Younger boys (NSP) are jealous! and feel left out. Well, Cupcake, get your patrol organized, trained and plan a major trip of your own! Who says you have to miss out when the only thing holding you back is yourself? " In our case, our troop has patrols and is going through the motions but really isn't doing the patrol thing, They cook as patrols but really everything else is done as a troop. Additionally, the adult scouts are saying they have to miss out. They flat out say that the young kids can't do it. I don't think they are doing it conscientiously but they are really discouraging such thought with their paradigms. Oh well, I'm doing what I can at every opportunity to plant the seed in scouts and scouters, that the patrols really can do patrol level stuff if they want...... and many times I've planted the seed in my son't mind in particular. He's young, 11, and well hasn't come out as a leader, so I don't imagine he'll be pushing those established paradigms any time soon..... but maybe someday. I've at least tried to plant the seed. And besides, I'm only MC. Maybe someday I'll be ASM and can encourage even more by being willing to foster such a trip...... "Younger boys (NSP) are jealous! and feel left out. Well, Cupcake, get your patrol organized, trained and plan a major trip of your own! Who says you have to miss out when the only thing holding you back is yourself?

It sounds like you are really working hard to have your WEBELOS den be what a WEBELOS den really should be. What I meant about being bored though isn't in your den.... it's the later part. They know the oath an law, they are ready for the scout rank.... but then what happens when the new scout patrol ASM or his instructor has an agenda in place.... the 1st 5 troop meetings after crossover will be spent working on..... the oath.... the law.....etc.... And there is no bending them form this agenda. The poor instructor will feel that he's not being listened too, and your poor scouts will soon come to the conclusion that scouts is boring. It's what you say about teaching them how it works, how to read the handbook....and how to work with such a scouter.... that is what really has me encouraged more than having them already know all the stuff! Really encouraging. It's what I wish that I would have been more aware of as ADL to help steer our DL when my son was in WEBELOS!

I'm an RV'er and on your side, but I have to think that in many cases, most perhaps, this isn't really being intellectually honest. Unless a camper was bought at a very bargain price, and it's used it a lot, it'll likely cost more per night in the long haul than hotels. Considering purchase price, maintenance, fuel to drive or tow, campground fees, etc.... RVing is a great way to travel though, and I'm like you in that i love having my own mattress, my own shower, etc.... and it's good family time. (I had a popup, and traded up a few years ago to a class c motorhome) I still like camping though (in a tent), and that's a small part of my appeal in being active in my son's scout troop. It's the only excuse I have anymore to sleep under the nylon

yep, all you can do is ignore teh kick in the gut as payment for your services and move on. Exactly what I had to do too..... well a bit different situation but still a kick in the gut as a thank you..... I will offer a possible paradigm shift though.... sometimes the new leadership can feel pressured or controlled in some way or another by old leadership even if that old leadership is just trying to be supportive and helpful. It's often best for someone in an old guard role to completely disengage for a long time to let the new guard get grounded in their own way. It's kinda what happened to me in a way, but in reverse. The old guard stepped down after burning out, but were still involved with younger sons in the pack. I took things on when they didn't want it anymore and nobody else would step up. I didn't ask for it. they stayed out for a while, kind of..... BUT they couldn't let go did nothing to help me and ultimately undermined me with a firm kick in the gut as payment for a couple good years of hard work and service to the pack wearing many hats. edit: I don't think the kick was intentional really, but that's what it ended up being from my perspective.

I think that this is an outstanding goal. I think a shortfall in WEBELOS is the lack of DL knowledge of patrol method. The idea doesn't really get taught all that well it seems, and so really a WEBELOS and even an AOL really isn't all that much ahead of a boy walking into a troop meeting off the street. A flip side to the idea though is that the scouts might get a bit bored earlier on. If the troop guide and instructor does what it is that they do, regardless the ability of the new scouts... Or if the scouts and /or adults in the troop hold onto any preconceived notions about age and ability. As an example, our SM has started an idea of a "high adventure patrol"...Open only to older scouts.... I forget the age exactly. But the idea is sound..... let the older scouts do some fun stuff to help hold their interest. I like it a lot. but what it's really doing is throttling the younger boys. One example of a suggested activity was to canoe over to Cumberland Island, where it is possible to camp.... and it wouldn't be tailgate camping. I asked why not let any scout come along that wants to go..... I know my son would enjoy it much more than having some older scout read to him out of the book about how to do some particular thing or another....such as build a camp fire. But the answer i got back was that the younger guys wouldn't be able to handle it..... or some such thing...... so my point is this.... get them too ready and they may just get throttled back anyway to the point of being bored. Might should prepare them while you're at it with tools on how to overcome adult influenced ideas....