blw2

I'm thinking scuba diving shops would be a source for cheap webbing belts and buckles similar o what I remember old packs having for waist belts... like this https://www.amazon.com/Scuba-Choice-Diving-Webbing-Plastic/dp/B006UMNWES/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1484579846&sr=8-4&keywords=scuba+weight+belt a bit of retrofitting required, but maybe an option

snow camping experience..... I can imagine a lot of folks checking that off even when there's just a dusting of snow...... or even a few inches. Maybe that it the intention.... or maybe it's more like what I'm picturing.... deeper snow, where it's not really practical to build a fire on the dirt. deeper snow, where it's conceivable that one could build a snow cave or igloo type shelter..... or dig down a bit and set up a tent in and on the snow, perhaps banking the snow around .... a bit different than setting the tent up on the ground with just a few inches of snow With just a dusting or just a few inches of snow, i would tend to think of that as just messy cold weather camping.

Or, how about forming a venturing crew that is operating more like a venturing patrol in the troop for the purposes of summer camp? This is a question to others here, not to the OP, since I don't really know how or if this would float.... I'm just basing this on the understanding that venturing goes up to 21 years old and it seems like it could be a way for you to focus your energies on doing fun high adventure stuff with your friends.

'Speed Writing' is not something I'm familiar with.... although i do write pretty fast but IMO it sounds like something that should be taught ahead of cursive seems that it would be useful for taking notes in class or in a business mtg, an all sorts of other times in life that such a thing would be useful. I'm a private pilot, although i'm sad to admit I haven't flown in many years. Now days we get plain language weather printouts, but back in those days we learned to read and write the codes and abbreviations that the weather service (and FAA) use.....as well as a abbreviation or code system for writing routes, wayponts, etc... It was very handy to know this sort of "shorthand" when jotting down a note on our knee board about something the controller just told us while bouncing around in the clouds doing about 4 things at once and all while thinking ahead two or three steps along the route

my 3rd grade daughter is learning it. but I can barely read or write it myself. I started using nothing but printing in high school when I was taking drafting classes. This was the days of pencil or ink on paper using T-Squares and triangles. For mechanical drawings, we were taught to print in all caps, and had to re-learn to print in all caps "block letters". TOM Q. VAXY I haven't printed that neatly in a long time, but I still print in all caps. Never have seen a point in cursive. I always think of my mom when it comes to cursive.... she would write so slowly and so consistently. Still very hard to read though.... what's the point?

Just thinking "out loud", but I'm thinking a smaller candle might be the trick... like a birthday candle. Wouldn't burn very long so the thing's not likely to leave your sight I'd guess.

and then there's the different types of learners to consider..... visual, auditory, kinesthetic, etc... ha ha, yeah, I suppose it's not only power point. Your post reminds me of see one of our older scouts trying to "teach" some of the younger scouts by reading to them out of the book..... then later hearing that same older scout in a BOR express frustration that the younger scouts don't listen and don't want to learn. Is that death by Scout Handbook?

all very valid points of course.... and I agree, great post SSScout .... and I'll add one more angle of all this "credit mentailty" that is damaging in a way..... between direct deposit and the concept of "takehome pay", a lot of folks don't really know how much they make, or how much they pay in taxes. I think this one little statement might cut to the crux of the issue in my mind anyway. and this isn't really a new thing either.... I recall many fundraisers through the years of my childhood.... between band, scouts, and probably a few other groups from time to time.... But even back then did I really get much out of it? Maybe a little... but mostly I hated it. I probably made my parents miserable for pushing me to go knock on those doors.... I sold some, but never really made all that much money selling stuff we didn't want to sell, stuff thought up by some unknown adult that we didn't believe in, that was over priced, to people who really didn't want the product, and making in the end not really all that much money for a lot of work and stress. and ok, it does say he pays his own way. I stand corrected. I suppose one could say it's "part of the program". But I still feel like it's not really part of the core of it..... maybe that's my mistake. (For what it's worth, they way I take that though isn't that paying ones way is the definition of "thrifty".... I read the intent as likely more like a list of things...... he thrifty, works to pay, helps others, etc.....) My thought on this is only that a scout can do a lot of things to pay his own way, one of which is negotiating a business loan from the bank of mom...... or asking his "employer-mom" for a little overtime and extra work to make a little extra cash. Fundraising is only one way.... and while it is an interesting opportunity from several angles..... I have never really seen it done well I guess.....

Even though the original topic is no longer relevant (re flying fire)..... I've never done that, but always thought it would probably be interesting to do and see. It would bother me sending off something that wasn't quickly biodegradable, but personally I wouldn't have a huge problem in doing it if done carefully and responsibly and not over populated or built up areas and not during a drought with very small candles perhaps, that wouldn't burn long (and far) etc.... perhaps tether them to a fishing reel?

Honestly, if I step back and look at this thing as a parent I'd rather in the time he has available for scouting each week, that my son get to practice independence with his buddys, have some fun in the outdoors, get some leadership experience, and learn some woodsman skills, and maybe gain a little character along the way than have him waste that precious little time struggling to sell something that nobody wants and generating more work for the volunteers that are spending their precious time to help the troop. I'm figuring there is enough to be gained if the boys were just turned loose with the patrol method focusing on doing the fun stuff that scouts are supposed to do The rest of that stuff they'll learn in other venues.....

good point davidco, live in the present! another difference is availability of work for youngsters used to be common for boys to mow lawns for a buck as an example. Now, at least around here, there are so many adult "professional" lawn services doing nearly all the lawns that can be hired out. The remaining folks do it themselves..... I'd assume there's concerns over quality of work, dependability, and liability with a young kid doing that sort of work. Then, as the kids get older I've gotta believe fewer minimum wage type jobs out there restaurants can't afford to pay some kid the minimum rate now to refill salt and pepper shakers, so they just buy disposable pre-filled ones.... I'm just guessing here, maybe the jobs have shifted into other areas that I'm just not aware of yet....

our troop is similar, although I haven't in my limited experience camping with the troop, seen them abuse gear. As with any group of boys I would suppose, there are a few that are a 'handfull' but for the most part I would say they are fairly well grounded considering. Several at least, i happen to know are very responsible with their money. With that being 'said' though....One things for sure, I doubt if many of them have a true appreciation for the cost of things or in paying their own way really. Fundraising is probably seen as an activity not a necessity, and its something that historically is always adult driven

nothing...... in fact it's admirable except it's really not part of the program is it?

@@SSScout mentions "death by power point". I guess that's the fear we all have walking into something like this....hoping that this one will not be PPT based and not 1 days worth of stuff stretched to fill 3! and I surely didn't mean to imply I know it all. basics I've got down fairly well i suppose, but there's much that i don't know or have only read about.... But all this mention of WB teaching the Patrol Method.... then why is it that we have so many bead wearers, that are also IOLS trained and experienced but still don't really practice the patrol method? And I don't mean just my unit.... a lot that I have seen a simple concept but very hard to hurdle to jump I suppose Thanks for this reminder, that one can never really "know it all". I'm reminded of a course I took a long time ago through work on threaded fasteners. I went into this thing as a degreed mechanical engineer that had focused on machine design, and at that point in time had a few years experience as a Maintenance Engineer....and above all that i had grown up since I was small swinging wrenches, completely rebuilding small engines and working on cars.... All I can say is that i never knew that there was so much to know about tightening a nut or a screw! I was thinking about this thread earlier this AM. The challenge really with classes like this, is that it really needs to be many different classes because of the wide variation of targeted students. you have the folks that have never camped, were never a scout, and know nothing about the scouting program, and nothing about the outdoors you have the folks that are avid and experienced campers, but do not know scouts or the scouting way and you have folks that have been around scouting in one form or another, but have never camped or the long term scouters that don't know that they don't know the patrol method or folks that are very much up to speed on scouting and the patrol method and are avid campers/outdoorsmen or the experienced cub scouters, in their various experience levels with camping and outdoors and on and on.... I suppose the seemingly infinite combinations could be simplified down to maybe 4 scouters or not outdoorsman or not but still..... all of these need to be lumped together into a class where they can all benefit seems like a hard nut to crack, and so my hat is off already, to those teaching the course for even trying!!!

no, but an interesting question to ponder..... my guess is that neither would know how to answer such a question. The cc isn't really overly knowledgeable about the program other than having been involved as an interested and active parent (don't intend that as an insult or complaint in any way, just fact as I see it) and the SM already know what he knows, whey would he need me to bring anything... AND I haven't been asked to be an ASM. I'm only doing it to be a better MC (BOR's, etc...), and because it's where my interest really lies...... I enjoy the stuff that scouts do, not MC stuff really. still an interesting question to ponder......

would it be more appropriate to say that it should concentrate on how to teach those basic nuts and bolts? or based on how other have defined it maybe it should concentrate on how to apply the patrol method (meaning hands-on)?

ok, valid points that I can understand based on that logic. but the kink is this we're adults, with adult experience and knowledge, not boys. and even though we might ideally be the boy-man that BP described (wasn't that the term he used?). we still can't truly look at it from the boy perspective fully (unless perhaps if we're an 18-20ish year old) and we are coming into this very often with extensive camping and outdoor knowledge and experience. granted maybe not the best experience sets, but still..... it certainly seems like a challenge to balance and get this thing "right". Should be fun to see how it goes. if done properly. I don't want to be so much the pessimist going in, but I have seen very little to none of the bsa training I've had to date really shine as being "done properly". I'm not sure what "proper" should be in this case really, so we'll see..... at least it'll be a good try! I don't know.... that could be a great classroom exercise.....ok class, grab your notebooks, we're gonna tour the camp for the next hour and observe different troops form afar....

I guess this is exactly the logic I'm struggling with. Seems like in a pure sense this is how it should be if it's truly led by the scouts I think that somewhere along the line fundraising has evolved into actually being part of the program for most parents. It's what we grew up doing, and what we see..... girl scouts sell cookie's, right.... So at the CM when emotions were flaring a bit and someone threw out that we ARE boy lead and so they should be deciding I struggled and failed at how to effectively respond to that statement...... feeling that all of this whole thing is exactly opposite of led by the scouts. I channeled you @@Stosh, on at least three different occasions durring the meeting when I made mention and proposed the idea of considering doing things on our own rather than going to a formal BSA high adventure. I hope the seed was planted at least. I know that as it is, the mindset is that one goes to a BSA camp and signs up for MB's, because that's just the way it is done. There is no thought of anything outside that box. I could tell by the reactions that this is exactly how this idea was perceived. I just hope that the idea, now planted, has a chance to grow in the back of some minds.... I think that I want to tend towards disagreement here. Thrifty means "not wasteful" in my thinking. Nothing more really. In fact, as I'm stewing on these ideas, I have to say I can't really see where money really has any role in the aim or methods of the scouting program..... except perhaps as a part of some of the MB's..... so I'm really struggling to see the harm in not letting money enter into it anymore than in the scenario you outlined in your first few paragraphs @@Stosh. Let the scouts figure out their own goals and budgets, and earn the money in the form of their own allowances or jobs at home, or however it is that they can figure to get what they need.

haha, yeah, I've geocached already a little bit.... then a couple years ago took geocaching with my son at U of Scouting. I'd like to do more of it from time to time but its not something I see myself really ever getting in deep with.... Actually it's role playing that I might dislike the worst about things like this.... so the whole "playing patrol" doesn't sound like much fun to me. Playing is very different that really doing it I think. I'm already and avid camper and have always liked doing most of the things that scouts do so I'm just hoping this isn't a repeat of baloo. No doubt there will be some nuggets, and I'll be looking for them. I just wish they were tagging on wilderness 1st aid to the class too. that'll be the only other formal training I'm looking to check off....

Looks like I'll be finally checking off IOLS this weekend. Doing a last minute sign-up to the course they are running concurrent with our troop's camporee. Wasn't planning to attend camporee since they didn't need more adults, but figured this is maybe a more efficient use of the weekend.... I can camp and eat with the troop and go to "school" while they are having fun. Not too exciting looking at the agenda, but i am hopeful that it'll be fun and that I'll learn some good tips, maybe a different twist on doing things the BSA way, make some friends, etc.... But didn't I see rumblings that IOLS was switching to a shorter course length.....as in maybe a day course or something? This is still a Friday evening to Sunday thing.....

So this whole thing came up at our committee meeting, when discussing if we want to do our big spring mulch fundraiser or not. A lot of mixed emotions on the whole thing.... "boy lead, we are" and so they should be deciding / it's a very adult centered thing / nobody really wants to do it / we make decent money at it / but it's a lot of work and not worth it / it's a great opportunity for the scouts to practice their leadership and get some good fellowship while working together / but fundraising isn't really part of the core scout program purpose & method anyway / the scouts should be deciding and doing / can we parents just stroke a check and make it go away / but if we are going to start doing some "high adventure seabase or philmont trips" we'll need more $ /..... back and forth to no real end..... very tiring.

thanks for all the responses and input. OK, so it seems very typical to have individual scouts pay as they go for events, so we're good there. As I read through this and think about it, I keep going back to a feeling that the troop should be using the bank balance though, to fund scouting for the scouts. unfortunately, I don't have enough data yet on true costs of events vs what we take in but when I step back and look at big picture it's clear that we take in what we need, and we continue with a big balance in the bank. On one hand I feel like while we have money in the bank we shouldn't be charging $x for food or $y for that camp..... thinking that these are "troop expenses" and the "troop" should just pay it. So perhaps we should instead of charging for each event or activity, it might be better just work with the scouts so that they set themselves a budget.... such as "we can't spend any more than X per person for grub, and we can't spend any more than Y per person for admission or fees for an event." Then if the scouts later decided they wanted to spend more for a particular special event, they could then do their own subsidizing.... This strikes me that this is how it "should" be. Pay dues + fund-raise up front, then use that money to make the troop go, budgeting as you go.... But on the other hand, I can imagine folks bringing up the "it's not fair argument".... using troop general money for only those few going on the trip (because we never have the WHOLE troop attend at once). No matter if this is valid or not, you know it will be brought up.... Also, while I don't have sufficient data yet my gut tells me that we would over time spend more than we take in so our current balance would dwindle We did have one more twist regarding the balance. Our troop trailer was smashed by a tree in a storm, so we were fundraising this year primarily to offset the expense of a new trailer. It was looking like we were going to eat into the balance a bit but were still going to be strong enough.... a good reason to maintain extra money in reserve, right? But in the end, we received a donation for the trailer in full so now we are really sitting strong now..... and so that's what it's bothering me to put on my debt collector hat and go chasing for $10 from 'Johnny Scout' for grub, or worse yet $20 or whatever for the scoutmaster to pay his way into camporee

checked out your twitter posts looks like fun! I especially liked the leave no trace parting shot of your campsite! and the tanks looks like they could have been a blast. And carnival rides too?!?

I think if you can take it back to that simple/basic extreme it might make a little sense.... If all the adults do is oversee and coach regarding the menu, drive them to the store and watch.... and it's all handled scout to scout with cash, then that piece of it makes some good sense as a responsibility lesson, money handling, etc... but it kinda needs to be 100% scout planned, scout budgeted, scout collected, scout paid, etc.... for it to have any teeth. But as soon as the parents pay, or the money goes to the bank, the adults pay by debit card, etc...... then for the scouts it's just going through the motion and handing off. We have individual accounts in our troop (funded by the scout's parent). The scouts' accounts are charged for grub, or it's collected prior to the camp. It goes to the treasurer (me) for bank deposit. The grubmaster goes to the store and a responsible adult with debit card does the paying (or hands cash to the scouts). There's no real teeth in that, IMO anyway....

I've had that feeling a few times, during various scout events when the scouts are having fun. It's good knowing that I had a part in it even if I've not had a specific "scout said to me...." Had a few great conversations with my son coming back from cub scout camps when I knew he was treasuring that time with just me without the girls.