blw2

yeah, I'm jealous of that, stosh. I was raised by parents who both grew up on poor farms. They always had a garden up until recently. "put up" canned veggies. I grew up hunting and fishing. Helped raise chickens as a kid.... helped dad tend his bees...and even experienced farm living visiting grandparents as a young kid, milking cows and such....and got to experience their annual a hog slaughter once. I'd really love to have a small garden and more edibles in the yard.... maybe some fruit trees, blue berry bushes, etc... Sadly, I just don't seem to have the time, and living in an HOA run neighborhood I'm limited in what i could do even if I did have the time.. Also sad that i haven't been hunting or fishing in so long it would be a struggle for me to remember how to skin a deer or clean a fish. Sometimes I think worse than that is that I'm not teaching those skills to my kids. It was a struggle for us when we moved.... I wanted more space and fewer rules, but my wife wanted the neighborhood with sidewalks, neighborhood swimming pool, and more friend opportunities for the kids. She won. There are up sides to it too though.... I was thinking of another dying skill earlier today.... Drafting. I'm an engineer working in the architectural world, and have a lot of training from a long time ago in drafting.... 3 years in high school + an AA degree in Drafting and Design before I went on to get into engineering. Mostly drawing board stuff. That is an almost dead art. Engineers and Architects today just don't learn drafting skills and standards like that.... and it shows in the drawings that are produced today.

well that's just it, aint it? the only thing about the training side track is that a committee member that doesn't know the program, or is still stuck in adult lead cub mode, or whatever really doesn't know what to ask or how to interpret things in a useful way.... I think that's the only point of that You're right, the bigger question is does your committee do a formal bit on this topic for the attending scoutmaster, or does the feedback from BOR go into a black hole..... and I would add the question does the committee purposely fish for that kind of feedback when doing BORs One thing I think to remember, & I suppose I really should refresh my memory before writing this, but I believe there is a bit about BOR's being confidential so there is a bit of a tip toe dance to be done here....

so my son tells me the other day that his patrol wants to change their name to "Illuminati".... I'm scratching my head on that one.... where are they getting this stuff from??? Currently they are "Cyber Ducks" but that was not by consensus and the scout pushing that one dropped out.

having just completely IOLS (finally, took me a long time to find a course that worked) and now fully trained to be a SM.... I can say with some authority that I'm not all that sure it would help all that much..... well actually the SM specific and IOLS might serve as an ok intro to someone in an MC role I suppose.... because that's about how I would rank the whole course of study.... basic introduction. There was no real meat to any of it in teaching the patrol method.... what it is or how to use it. I'd bet a lot of MC's never look at such a book, let alone own a copy.

yeah, well not really asking so much... mostly bringing it up as a real world right-now example of the kind of thing a committee member might observe and suggest. But your are correct in a way too. Something one has to tread lightly with, from a few angles. Bucking is just one... Also, something I have been working on since I have been rather new with the troop is that I am not really in a position to drive change.... I think a person in my situation has to focus on being cooperative as much as reasonably possible.... and not complaining and such. Build trust and take little steps towards change. Now a new SM or CC is in a much better position to take those bigger steps or jumps forchange.... And I think you are also correct that committee's often don't have a good fix on things. Often CC's don't and few MC's really dig deep into the program. There's no really good training for them, and no real motivation for most to do their own research. A person has to be a scouting-nerd like me to want that.... I would suppose that usually the MC is a bunch of parents that can't or don't want to be SM but either want to help a little or get pressured into it.

exactly! Right before the anything else, it might be a standing bullet point of "feedback to the SM", just so that folks start thinking about that specifically as a need.... nothing more than that really. and I agree, that should be something the SM would address with the PLC. It's needed feedback I think in our case. My example more specifically is this....everyone knows there's a general lack of "spirit", in terms of no patrol yells, etc... That in of itself isn't that big of a deal I suppose and so it doesn't seem (to me anyway) like its being addressed. But what i am seeing is a more systemic thing. Our patrols meet only as a patrol pretty much only to plan the menu and duty roster for upcoming campouts, buy grub and cook together as a patrol. At camp, there really doesn't seem to be any formal patrol areas except friends tents are more or less next to each other. Again not really a problem in and of itself. I never see patrol flags. Again not a problem and at camporee recently there were no patrol yells or even a troop yell heard. None of these things seem like a problem by themselves.... if the scouts aren't interested in a patrol yell.... hey, that's ok I suppose...but what I don't see is patrols sticking together and bonding tightly. i don't really see much taking care of others in your patrol. I don't see any outward pride in being a member of the X,Y, or Z patrol. And I never see or hear anything of a patrol having a patrol meeting or a patrol outing. These observations have been confirmed in questions during BORs. I'm thinking that all of these things they aren't doing might be tools that could be encouraged and used to foster a better patrol method troop....and so that's what I'm planning to suggest to the SM through the 'committee'

pretty much like njcubscouter described, for us. I too really try to focus on those questions about how is it going, what the scout thinks can be improved etc..., although i have noticed the MC's doing more of that too. Honestly haven't gotten many meaningful answers yet that really needed to be passed along. We have no formal procedure, and things are pretty casual and discussed when/as needed I would like a more formal focus on this role of the committee. what I mean isn't make a big deal of it, no paperwork and no making more out of it than it needs....but just a bullet point to be mentioned at every committee meeting..."does anyone have anything re. program improvement feedback?", something like that 2 minutes or less kind of thing.... Lately have been thinking about formally suggesting some things regarding program improvement, mainly around encouraging more patrol spirit and using the patrol method more.... but these aren't really from BOR's just my own observations.

um, yeah.... valid point jasong172

thinking "out loud" the definition of "active scout" seems a bit light to me. 1/6 of the campouts and none of the patrol meetings and none of the troop meetings..... hummm It speaks of "patrol based" campouts. What does that mean? Anything beyond the "job" thing?... I don't see much that encourages anything beyond KP as a patrol (like our troop does) Nothing encouraging setting up tents in a patrol area, patrol activities, etc... Patrol spirit? maybe that could be wormed in there someplace.... patrol yell, flag, etc... Regardless, i applaud your efforts in thinking about strengthening patrols. but all that being said, I'm not sure that developing another checklist really helps a program any..... (somebody else made that statement in another post today, sorry don't remember who it was...)

seems to be IOS only, I'm not seeing it in the playstore for android...... wonder why they don't have a web based version?

I remember a post or comment some time ago about this, but not sure how to search for it. My question.... is there a map showing where all the council reservations are, even if my region and not nationally? I think it would be interesting to look geographically at options of places a troop could go... & I suppose this isn't necessarily only for summer camp but that's my primary thought. Am I correct to assume that every council runs a summer camp program at their reservation?

I wish I could go back and un-post that bit about speculating why NSP's don't work...... as I think this through some more, i can't begin to understand the dynamics in someone else's troop or situation. Admitting that is a huge step...one that a lot of folks will never take. Curious, what tipped you over to understanding that what you had learned was wrong? I agree about an additional checklist not helping one bit.... but a dilemma, especially for that new leader or new scouter in any role, is how to counteract that well intentioned list maker??? I'll point the finger at myself, as "people that obsess about creating the perfect PLC, patrols, and other troop structures. " But I think I do a pretty good job most of the time about being "mellow". I'm not one to charge in and try to fix it.... mainly because I'm not in a position to do so as a relatively new MC, but also because often I'm just not sure how to FIX it...... but we have other MC's that all up in it. I obsecc more behind the scenes and dry to drop a hint or suggestion now and then, when the opportunity seems right....and meanwhile I get frustrated at times but I try not to let it show to the troop or scouters.

you know, I think the thing that really cemented the understanding of patrol method for me was actually very basic and easy. A quick and easy read.... BP's Aides to Scoutmastership. that one book told me more about it than days and days of official required BSA training has. I had scouting experience as a youth, but admittedly only a couple years and it wasn't necessarily in a strong troop either..... THAT I am assuming is the problem in relying on youth experience for a scouter. There is a whole spectrum between really bad and really great, and likely very few troop are really great so most folks pick up some bad assumptions and habits along the way.

actually this topic comes with good timing. I'm finding myself at one of those low points, very disillusioned with scouting at the moment Just yesterday evening, after picking up my son from PLC it hit me.... If you can't beat them, go camping. I should just start focusing on taking my son and daughters camping more and not stressing about the troop so much and fixing what seems like can't be fixed from my position.... I think I'll work on getting my own backpacking equipment collection built up and start working up to doing some fun outings. I have found that the training is so very lacking that it is absolutely no wonder that even highly trained wood beaded Eagle Scout scouters don't get it. and you can't rely on those with experience as scouts either..... since the human condition is to do thing the way you know based on what you have seen. So I pick up son at PLC last night, and there they are as usual, with several adults gathered tightly around the table, and not just ASM's... an MC or two as well. With an Adult sitting at the front leading the show. We have patrols but about the only thing they do as patrols is KP. Even that is usually some mix of a hybrid adhoc patrol. Patrols don't meet together. They don't set up their tents in patrol areas together at camp, they don't have patrol yells, or in any outward way really show pride in being a member. I suspect your new scout patrols don't work because they are too forced. Probably micromanaged a bit and they don't get the chance to figure things out for themselves that well....and perhaps the older guys aren't fostered to really be helpful to them. Patrols are supposed to be groups of friends that want to hang out together...... and no 16 or 17 year old wants to be best buds with an 11 year old.... or visa versa.... no way around that! What is the biggest challenge? in my estimation, it's either the lack of good training lack of clear and simple definition of what the program should be... the aim and method. or scouters that think they know but don't have time or interest enough to continue looking for answers and thinking things through

Scouters not understanding what a patrol or the patrol method is

Sadly, in our troop the adults will steer things to those that "need" a POR for advancement, and steer with the "give another the chance" mentality.... If I were SM, I would try really hard to make sure the SPL and PLC understand the concept of taking care of their scouts...and that all scouts in general understood that too.... and make sure they are aware that there is a book to describe such things.... and then leave it to them.

I had not heard the news.... I'm saddened by it for sure. I had the pleasure of hearing Captain Cernan speak once. It was a rather small audience at Airventure several years ago. He spoke at length about the very subject you touched on NJcubScouter. How sad it is that we have not been continuing to explore more than we have. Also as I recall he spoke about the way things had become so routine.... how the world stopped to watch those first missions, but by the time of his last mission.... and for the majority of the shuttle missions, it was old hat. It's like many people weren't aware it was even happening. I don't recall it all, but as I remember it was a very nice motivational talk encouraging further exploration. I hope that someday someone will go back and see his bootprints that are surely still up there.

well, whatever it is..... if my scouts wanted to do a snow camping experience and it was an experience in deep snow, sleeping in snow caves or igloos (as long as it's not a 'barely igloo' made form not quite enough snow so that everything is a muddy mess....) then count me in.... I would love to get that experience myself! I lived in the North as a kid, and have spent some quality time as an adult living a few months in the dead of winter... and I have gone on several ski trip vacations So I understand snow, snow forts, sledding, and so on. Even made a snow cave once as a kid into a drift on the side of the hill in my backyard but it wasn't a proper snow cave with low entrance, sleeping shelves, etc.... and I didn't sleep in it. I would love to check that one off!

ha ha.... sorry to say, yes it has changed since then. Now the rules have been carefully crafted by some lawyer, probably a buddy of said machinist I forget how it was worded, but in my district a few years ago anyway.... basically it very cleverly says you can's modify the wheels but yet you can. The average parent, not to even mention kid, would read it to mean that you can't touch the wheels..... but if you were clever you would see that you can....

I might even argue that 30's and raining is more challenging than camping in several feet of powder. That can be brutal! Is that the point? Is that the goal? These things are true enough I suppose, in the spirit of the overlying requirement but "A snow camping experience" is the question.... and I can think of all sorts of extreme weather, different, and situations with lots of variety that are absolutely NOT snow experience in any way.....

well there you go.... well, cost maybe, and it looks like those might still require some rigging to attach to an old frame but much better than a diving weight belt!

OK, so it was a good weekend. Now I'm officially fully trained. Good bunch of folks putting on the class Sadly, I can't honestly point to any one thing I learned and didn't know before.... and I regrettably can't say that i am any better prepared in any way to be a SM. Not the instructors' fault or doing at all....just the nature of the class. Everything was just a gloss over general introduction to some core concepts.... ditto for the SM specifics course In fact I'm bothered a bit that it's possible for a person to be fully trained and yet be so ill-prepared for the job I did pick up a memory aid this weekend, to remember which way to flip the loop for a bowline....seems like I always get it wrong at first....and a fellow student taught be a one handed bowline trick while we were goofing around on the side... I have come to the conclusion that very few scouters really truly know what it means when a person says patrol method. It was touched on during my SM specifics....and touched on even less in IOLS....and in observing the other troops (this course was held at/during a camporee) I'm doubtful that many troops have tight functioning and cohesive patrols. We have more of a troop mentality than a patrol mentality I think, as a general rule.... There was really nothing in the IOLS class to teach how to teach, how to apply the patrol method, working with scouts, or any of it.... I honestly think that doing three very easy things would prepare any potential scouter to be an effective SM, much more than the required training 1) read BP's "Aides to Scoutmastership" 2) read Clark Green's "So Far So Good" 3) regularly spend time participating here on this discussion forum I might add a 3a)spending time over at scoutmastercg.com listening to podcasts and such.... and maybe a couple other scouting blogs too. I guess really though, a good SM needs to bring with them a lot of outside leadership and woodsman knowledge ....and they need a lot of passion to consider ideas, do some thinking, reading, and research, etc... outside of the meetings...... they have to have a passion for the stuff that scouts do because sadly, they won't get the knowledge from the BSA's training.

A general purpose hand cut saw (cross cut even) and a rasp, and a bit of sandpaper is all that's needed... a cheap little hand coping saw helps for fancier shapes. Most folks have a hand drill motor or even an old fashioned manual auger.... no need for a drill press. Actually one can get by without a drill at all. band saws and power tools really aren't necessary.

I have the same problem, don't like a mummy bag.... I have a slumberjack model that's similar. Probably discontinues as I've had it a long time. 20 degree rectangular bag with a hood. I don't use it often but used it this weekend. It had been colder earlier in the week so I brought it instead of my 40 degree quit just in case. Glad I did, even though it wasn't nearly that cold it worked well, even snuggled up the hood for a few hours in the early AM.

even more than that, I'm bothered by the high number of premade kits being entered.....and even winning the most creative awards and similar....