SSScout

Lots of ideas I agree with . The organization, the Scout Led, the opportunities... Make good contact with your local Scout Commissioner Corps (see the District webpage). And the most local Scout Camp. Hereabouts in Maryland, we have several Scout Camps in driving distance with cabins available for winter camping and activities. Get your scouts OUTSIDE and hiking and observing. Make contact with local naturalists, park people, bird watcheyour Scouts reading the handbook and working toward First Class. It is do-able in the winter. As your adult ideas sink in, let the Scouts take over in planning and doing. Provide maps, booklets, let'm talk to the Park Rangers and docents. Hang on, you will be dragged along, but you'll be glad you did.

Waaaay back in my Scout day, I remember that our Patrol would just do what needed to be done. If the "spoiled kid" (and he was), didn't do his share, , well, he still ate, but he took home dirty dishes, and he sat around a lot watching all the others doing stuff. My advice, if the "spoiled kid" comes camping, he carries his own gear, camps in his own tent (which he pitches), eats with the Patrol (if he paid for his share of grub), and if he refuses to carry firewood or water or help clean, well, make sure that his stuff is his stuff. He can sit and watch, but he doesn't play with us or takes his share of the prize the Patrol wins for having the "Neatest Campsite" or tying the knots the quickest or running the relay race. The other Scouts set the standard, but do not chastise the "spoiled kid" for not being cooperative. It is HIS choice to not be included. The rest of the Patrol should NOT be the ones to NOT include him.

There is a PLC training that the SM can provide. It is a mini NAYLE course, the templates are available on line, (it's called ILST) each SM really should do this at the beginning of the Scout year. see https://www.scouting.org/training/youth/ AND.... your Council should be offering the NAYLE course once or twice a year. https://www.scouting.org/programs/boy-scouts/resources/nayle/

"Okay gang, here is the duty roster. We will be at the Muddy Creek campground next weekend, and you all know what that means. Hauling in the gear, water faucet is aways to carry, campstove is HERE (show map).. Everyone pick a job (pass the roster around). If you are on the campout, ya gotta take a job. "A Scout is Trustworthy", we all do a bit, it all gets done. Jake, are you coming with your G'dad? He camps with the adults, right? You want to cook or clean up? No, you don't get served personally, EVERYBODY pulls his weight in this Patrol. Don't forget the Patrol Pitch ! We can win the movie tickets if we keep our campsite looking good. … "

When it became obvious that the Cub Pack that Scoutson had just crossed over out of was NOT going to be rechartered by the CO (a "paper" sponsor, a "courtesy" sponsor , a hospital "Foundation") , and no other parents wanted to take up the cause, we collectively decided to have one heckava BBQ picnic, and used up the remainder of the treasury. The last hundred or so dollars were signed off to the Hospital Foundation, a worthy cause none the less. Remaining Cubs transferred to other Packs. Salve our wounds, cherish our Cub Scout memories and move on.

Merlyn ! Almost thought you had dropped off the face of the earth ! I knew this discussion on the erstwhile Faith and Chaplaincy forum couldn't go by without your erudition. The debate seems to be whether one can have an ethical and moral center to one's psyche without a spiritual belief in "something bigger" then one's self. It must be noted (I'm sure friend Merlyn would agree) that every noted, named faith, from Sophocles on up to the LDS folks (with the possible exception of the Ba 'Hai ? and Buddhism? ) can claim both a peace testimony and a violent, vengeful period. The Christian Crusades, the Muslim J'had, the various Hindu - Sikh disturbances, even the Shinto-Samurai events in Japan... Hurt or Help? It is hard to find a faith category that doesn't exhibit that dichotomy. What is moral/ethical? By whose example do you judge? Atheists are certainly prone to this. Was Hitler a "believer"? Pol Pot? Sadaam Hussein? Oh, wait, he was labeled Muslim, (Sufism? Ahmadiyya?) . The rationale, the REASON for the ethics (Jesus said...) is the need here. Everyone wants an "authority" to point to. Atheism points to Humanity as it's authority, the idea that ethical, moral behavior is endemically the right thing to do, as such, by definition, should help everyone somehow and hurt no one somehow. How'm I doin' ?

There was a "Vendor" selling archery gear??? At a Scout event? Totally against everything I was taught to teach as a Range Safety Officer. "No personal gear allowed on the Scout Range." "No archery done OFF the official range, without the RSO oversight." Two and a half years later? Ach mein gott….

"A Scout is Trustworthy" , I accept what you say here as what you see as truth. I am suggesting that until we see more from Todd5, we do the same for him/her. Meantime, very often assumptions are best left to real estate deals 😊

Option B point 5... It must be pointed out that not only the Scouts, but the parents must be willing to subscribe to the Scout Promise and Law. If the COR and the rest of the Troop leadership can find agreement on what EXACTLY the problems are, in light of the Scout Promise and Scout Law, then that is on which you must base the banishment . In writing. Handed to the families in question, before witnesses. I have not read thru all of the past postings on this issue, but I have the distinct impression that the Scouts from this family (two families? Am I correct in thinking two families?) are not so much the problem, but must follow in the parent's footsteps. It may come to the point where the CO may have to seek an court injunction against trespass. Pity the Scouts.

No, I would include them that they may be Scouts.

"By their fruits shall ye know them". Very often, folks do things, act as if they were consciously following the Sermon on the Mount, or the Ten Commandments, or the Bagavad Gita or the Q'ran, but will tell you, no, that's not why I act the way I do. I act this way because it is the "right" thing to do, it is good for humanity, etc. I do not judge the source of the action, only if it accomplishes something I can agree with. Some folks will say that war can be righteous, that a Christian CAN fight to protect the nation and not be in disagreement with Christ Jesus' teaching. Us Quakers might have disagreement with that. When I point out the truth verses (John 5:34, etc.) to folks, they hem and haw and often say that doesn't apply here or some such. But it is what Jesus instructed. It is either what he said or it isn't. We either have a faith or we don't. ?For a Scout to declare that his/her "duty to God" includes not believing in him/her/it I find refreshingly honest (a Scout is Trustworthy). What do they DO ?

Friend Ian: Yep, some developmental programs take time to get it right. With an unlimited research budget and lots of low paid staff grad student interns, it can be done.

Well, I think the fact that you have a Scout from the Jehovah's Witnesses is rare and wonderful. Learn from their view of the Sacred. As a Quaker, I reminded my Scoutson and other Quaker Scouts that the Scout Promise is NOT an "oath", that it does not swear BY anything (see Mathew 5:33 or John 5:12) and is therefore OK to promise to do. The so-called Pledge of Allegiance borders on idolatry (promising to be loyal to a piece of cloth?) and also (altho it is not officially so) could be considered a "loyalty Oath" which is also not in accordance with what Quakers call our Truth Testimony, as it implies a gradation of truth. I would suggest that standing respectfully might be sufficient. This is why we are willing to "affirm" our telling the truth in a court of law rather than "swearing to". One's words are important. Valleyboy, I would urge you to suggest to your Scout Leaders to consider the "Reverent" part of their Scout Law. There is no requirement in any rank for reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, only to "know it". see#1F : https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/boyscouts/pdf/524-012_BS_Requirements_WEB.pdf And may I say, I teach Flag Etiquette and History at Cub Scout Day Camp? I do not object when others recite the poem, and I have had no one complain to me when I do not. I have had folks ask me about it, and I sit down and explain my action. See you on the trail.

It is the responsibility of parents to give their progeny something to either accept or reject. The parents have very little control over that decision. I have known folks who grew up in purely atheistic/agnostic homes and became devout (something). I have known folks that were brought up in loyal, definitely (faith) and now espouse a godless world. I suggest one look to the wonder of the human eye, and convince themselves that it was created totally by an accident. Evolution directed by a "designer"? Unthinkable. If one's "duty to God" includes not believing in him/her, I can accept that as a definition. It does leave everything up to the individual, and we can see where that has led to on occasion. A reliance on ""Something Greater Than Myself"" means not relying on oneself totally. That can be a nice "out", and can lead to other possibilities. Atheism leads to very few "other" possibilities. Are there any atheist Alcoholic Anonimous(s) ? I held my father's hand as he died. All I can say is that something left the room. It was not just a cessation of the heartbeat. It was , to me, experienced. I cannot share it with you except by word. I cannot deny it or explain it away. I cannot point it out to you and say "look at this". It happened to me . Like Paul, I have to say "come and see." When I am in worship at Meeting, sometimes it is just quiet. Sometimes it works, sometimes it works really well and there is no denying it. Even the folks that come "for the meditative quality" admit there is a difference at times. That difference is the quality that requires belief. Yep, good to have a "Faith and Chaplaincy" forum to fall back on (or into, I guess). Oh, wait....

Group photo, signed by all the Scouts, and adults possible, nicely framed. My wife has one from her days as CSDC Director. When Scoutson joined the Troop I had Scouted in (50 years previously !) , I often sat in the rear of the room with the other parents. The Scoutmaster at the time was perhaps the fourth or so SM since my time. I noticed, during one opening flag ceremony, that the flags seemed overly saggy. After the meeting, I inspected them more closely and discovered (!!) that the American Flag had 48 (!) stars, and the Troop flag seemed to be a woolen fabric (!). They were the SAME flags from MY period ! I mentioned this to the SM and CCh, and they marveled at it. When the CCh retired that year, (he had been CCh for about twelve years at that point), he was presented with the old Troop flag, several members signed it, me among them, a new nylon one being procured.... The American flag was replaced with a 50 star one, and the 48 star one joined the Troops "historic flag" set (13 star, 15 star, 34 star, 48 star, 50 star).

Twenty three pages of angst. What does that say about the topic and the commentators?

I concur with the previous comments. 1) Reflect on what might have triggered such a response. Over the phone and not in person? Interesting.... 2) Reflect on the Scout Promise and Law. Those are upon which Scout Leaders should base their behavior . 3) Speak (as recommended) in person with the Committee Chair and the Charter Organization Representative. Your sponsoring Charter Organization ( the church or school or club that sponsors your Cub Pack) is supposed to be represented by the COR to the Scout world. Many CORs are merely "signers" on the paperwork, but you have a right to require their participation here. The Committee Chair , with the Committee, helps decide the activities of the Pack that the Cubmaster leads. The CCh needs to hear of this event post haste. Next in the line of responsibility for the Cub Pack is the Institution Head, or as mentioned above, the Executive Officer. This might be the club president, or the church Head Pastor, or the Fire Department Chief, who ever heads the Charter Organization. They will want to hear of your travail. 4) Bullying? I would consider it so. Certainly not the action of a "reasonable" adult Scout Leader. Reflect on how these folks act toward your Cubs. Is there another problem ? 5) Go on line and find the District Leadership. You may know your Unit Commissioner, or not, but you can find the name and contact your District Commissioner, who would be the next resource to contact about this event. 6) Keep notes. Write down when and what was said by whom. Such notes may come in handy later. 7) Try to remember, "it's for the kids".

Lots of issues here. If the church is dissolved, who does your Troop really belong to? DE and Council need to be advised and consulted. In my home Troop's case, whoever shows up (except for SM and ASMs, ) to the Committee meeting ARE the committee. Registered? How do you gauge that? If you would support the Troop, you show up. Let the owner take care of his own boat. Thank him for his "support of Scouting" with a plaque and testimonial dinner. $4,000. will buy at least 5 ABS canoes and needed gear. Paddles, PFDs, waterproofs, rope, cartop racks, and MAYBE even a rack and shed to store things in and on. The start of a really good canoeing program and a "specialist" Troop... You might become famous in your area ! The Scouts want to go boating, let'm propel themselves. Canoeing MB is a fun thing. What rivers and lakes are nearby?

When I received Surbaugh's letter (email), it reminded me of one of my favorite Monty Python skits. We see two pilots in the cockpit of their airliner, obviously bored on a long flight. One says, " here we go" and he picks up the microphone for the PA system. He says, "Good morning, this is your captain speaking. There is absolutely no cause for alarm". and hangs up the mike. ???!!! So captain Surbaugh assures us there is no cause for alarm. I feel the BSA has a 'lotta 'splainin' " to do, to use another media reference some of us older folks may recognize. It is sad he has inherited such a bag of expensive worms. "All Scouting is local" may have to be the mantra we live by . Problems: Unattended sexual abuse scandals. Overly paid folks who might not have been really devoted to the "idea" of Scouting. Inside folks that did not really know what the ideals of the Scout Promise and Law entailed as applied to "REAL LIFE". The GSUSA set the scene by not allowing fathers to help their daughters be Girl Scouts. The GSUSA not promoting "outdoor adventure" in addition to "indoor leadership" for their Scouts. BSA trying to adjust the "program" to match the new kids on the block, rather than staying to what they were good at. Some faiths not agreeing with the idea of true equality among humans. Societal attitudes changing. I know I have left some things out, but so long as we can provide kids with guidance "on the trail", I think Scouting, if not the BSA and GSUSA and the World Organization of the Scouting Movement as we now see it, will evolve and be there for the future.

There ya go. A non-topic Topic, if I ever saw one. Personally, I need all the blessing I can get, I do not differentiate from whence they come. 😊 Some years ago, I was moved to seek and was approved as a Scout Chaplain to the Nat Jam in 2005. The title stuck, and I have been trying to explain Scout religiosity ever since. I find that if one does not come across as "my way is the only possible way", people can get along nicely. Every faith I have come across has somewhere in it's precepts the idea that THIS is the best way to the godhead. And it seems to be true for those people. As the carney barker says, ya pays yer money and ya takes yer cherce. Our faith is dependent on three things: First, Our upbringing, who our parents/family (if we had any to claim) were, what they taught and espoused and exampled ((I tell new parents it is their DUTY and RESPONSIBILTY to give their kids something to either claim as their own or reject outright)) . After that, second, our own experience and search, should we do any.... and third, our revelationary experience, our "vision" or "voice" or metaphoric "tap on the shoulder". By these three things , our faith is formed. Duty to God? If there is one.... or many?... When I got hip high deep into Scouting, I offered my experience to the IOLS leader in our District. We are good friends now. I soon realized, IOLS had NO discussion included about "Reverent", so I offered to do one, and have been for the last, (?) ten years. Here is the outline I now hand out. I have had good comments from my Christian, Jewish and Islamic Scouters. https://www.dropbox.com/s/76zk9ri7glgu9gt/ScoutsOwnDutytoGod.docx?dl=0 Here we are in the best, possibly the most successful democracy humanity has created, and we pray about a "King of Kings". Is there any irony in that? Lord? lower case lord? father? Mother? See you on the trail.

Yes, sometimes we have to be reminded that "God ain't done with me yet". Scoutson worked hard to buy the truck of his dreams, a nice 1996 4wd F250. Cleaned it up, touched up the paint, daily driver to school and work. He set off to school (junior college) one late March morning, met the last patch of ice on the road, touched the guard rail and another on coming truck, and flipped and rolled thru all three axis, landed on it's wheels, not two miles from home. He called us cell phone and by the time mom and I got there, he was sitting on the side of the road being tended by the EMTs, as we watched a police car slip on the same ice patch and slam into the same guard rail. Truck was crushed, totaled, glass all broken out, not a single piece of sheet metal unaffected. The other truck went off the road, stayed right side up and that driver also walked away... Scoutson had a badly bruised knee. How he came out of the wreck so unaffected, no one can say. There were no other witnesses. At the hospital, Scoutson and mom and dad agreed there was more than a seatbelt at work. He said he "woke up" outside his truck, does not remember how he got out. Both doors were smashed and not easily openable. Yes, we prayed alittle more that week.

Transferring this worthy question to the Faith and Chaplaincy Forum.... oh, wait....

SCOUTS. Five types of SCOUT in the BSA : CUB, . . . . . , Venture, Explorer, Sea,,,,, The problem is that second classification. What to call the female Tenderfoot? THAT is the problem, to my mind. I can name a female Wolf or Bear Cub, I can name a female Venturererer, but how to refer to a young lady First Class... ?

John-in KC, good to see you around again. Ideally, WB is supposed to MODEL the Patrol Method (did BP really use that term?). As a Scout Leader and Sub Teacher I continue to be surprised and disappointed when I see kids that have to be practically knocked up side the head to work together and plan and make decisions AS A PATROL..... Most of our kids seem to be unable to think for themselves in the lower and middle grades. They have been so browbeat into WAITING for instruction, to be told what to do.... The idea of a Scout deciding , with his/her buds to go somewhere, do something as a team is foreign to them. WB should, if it doesn't usually, encourage the adult leader to permit the Scout to think and make mistakes (and deal with the results) themselves.

Absolutely, as he continues as a DC, one would hope he gains experience and skill. Same Cubs? As they move up, he moves with them? What better recruiting example. AND... encourage him to serve as a "Visual Aid" 😉 for the DC training in your area....