Sentinel947

Yup. We had a at least one outing when I was 18-20 that I counted as the second adult. Old enough to go die in war, work , but not old enough to count as an actual adult to supervise a group of teenagers camping with another trained adult. It's no wonder young adults don't continue on in American Scouting very much. There is no critical role they can do when they turn 18. Why stay doing something you aren't needed for?

That sounds fine. I don't think Gifts are typical for completing Wood Badge, but if it's something small I don't think it'd be inappropriate or awkward.

This isn't a clear cut situation, much of it depends on the CO and the Troop leadership and membership. 1,000 a year no strings attached is generous. 1,000 a year to to staff the CO's fundraiser? Maybe still. It's definitely within the CO's rights to ask for assistance and make the financial support contingent on support for their fundraiser. Depending on the troop size, that money covers rechartering and dues. The free rider principle comes into play very strongly here. If it's the same folks running this event every time, and it's mandatory, you're going to have some ticked off families. Furthermore CO's don't like being taken for granted by Scout Troops, and Scout Troops don't like being used as uncompensated (or poorly compensated) labor. So here's the questions I have: How many Scouts in your unit? How many Scouts and parents does it take to staff this fundraiser each time it's put on? How many Scouts and parents will consistently show up to the fundraiser if they are scheduled to? How long is this fundraiser? It sounds like it's on a weeknight, so maybe an hour or two? That'd be ideal. Is the cookout scheduled at a reasonable time? Not too soon after school, not so late that your Scouts can't get their homework done? The dinner hour 6pm-8pm is probably ideal. How does your Troop typically get funded? Is it through fundraising? Or is your troop families well to do enough to just cut checks for everything? What other contributions to your CO does your Troop make? Does your Troop provide any other service to the CO? Or is this the first significant request they've asked for? Is there a significant amount of families that are members of this CO, or is it a "Community Troop"? Depending on the number of Scouts, that money could be $100 per Scout or it could be $1 per Scout. In my Troop 1k a year would be about $16.66 per Scout. That might be worth it if my (fictitious) son and I spend a few hours a year at it. But if it's an hour long fundraiser, 12 times a year, for $16 a Scout, I'd decline that. (Yes I know $16.66 for more than a few hours is not "minimum wage." There is some value in service to others that doesn't strictly add up in dollars and cents.) If the Troop can set up a rotation of Scouts and parents to staff where everybody has to staff the event once or twice a year, that can become a pretty reasonable fundraiser. So do a cost benefit analysis. How many Scouts? How many people are required? How long is each event? What is the dollars per Scout? If the money doesn't line up, maybe there is another project or service your Troop can provide for that money, or maybe you let the money go, and still do some smaller service for the Troop. Whatever you decide, supportive CO's are a rare gift, so don't throw away that relationship.

Private Investigation firm hired by the Diocese of Covington released their report today. https://www.yahoo.com/news/report-covington-high-school-incident-225252440.html

I think the requirements are achievable in a single meeting, if the Scout has already been taught and kept refreshed on the material previously particularly if they were Webelos. So that's the real question, did the Scouts really demonstrate that they knew the skills to their Scoutmaster or designated leader per the Scout requirements? More than ever, with new leaders coming into the fold to lead these girls Troops, it's more important than ever that new leaders are made to understand the Aims and Methods of Scouting and the proper role of advancement. Many will not, and plenty will understand and choose to disregard it so they can race to have one of their girls be "first."

They want her to be credited for an Eagle project, and presumably all of her other requirements she "completed" from before girls were eligible for Boy Scouts.

Agreed. She wasn't a member in the program. She didn't complete the requirements. She has that opportunity now, and it should be a fairly easy process for her to use the extension and earn her Eagle. If the BSA caves here, the advancement process will be cheapened even further. How many other 16 or 17 year old youth will want credit for "prior work." Whether she tagged along at Scouting meetings before she could join the Scouts BSA program really isn't relevant. The Scout rank is clear: "All requirements for the Scout rank must be completed as a member of a troop or as a Lone Scout. If you have already completed these requirements as part of the Webelos Scouting Adventure, simply demonstrate your knowledge or skills to your Scoutmaster or other designated leader after joining the troop." At her age, she'll have no problems completing the requirements as a registered Scout. I look forward to her completing the requirements, above board, following the rules, just like all the other Eagles that came before her, and will come after her.

Glad to hear you're doing better Latin Scot! I hope your recovery will be smooth!

There's hostility on every forum. Towards every conceivable demographic and category. This forum is very civil and polite vs most forums that I've been on. There are a few members that like to stir up hostilities, but thankfully they aren't regular contributors. Now I'm on my soapbox, so feel free to just skip the rest of my post. There has always been In group- out group status in people. The last couple decades have really stirred up "identity politics." This case from DC over the weekend is just the next chapter. The initial report was reported as a cut and dry case of racism, and harassment. When I first saw the first articles and the pictures, that's really what it looked like. As others involved made their statements and more videos turned up, the situation became much more murky and hard to define. Both sides of the political spectrum have taken the situation and blown it up as a chance to rally the wagons and stir up people's passions. There are folks dredging up stories from former alumni with axes to grind to try to paint the whole school as racist. Taking pictures from a basketball game as a sign of racism. Bomb threats against the school. There are celebrities and journalists who either don't like the Pro-Life movement or don't like white people, or don't like Trump, or got triggered by the boys expression. Lawsuits are definitely going to be filed by Mr. Sandmann and his family. On the right wing all sorts of stuff is coming out about Mr. Phillips and his legal record, his background, his military service. I'm seeing articles about "How the media and the liberals are out to destroy the Catholic Church." It's all a chance to again, rally the wagons, us vs them. Hate "the other" and donate lots of money to the "team." We all have to take a side, or we're racist conservatives, or evil communists. Even the President of the United States is commenting on a public situation that decades ago would never have been reported on. 20 years ago, before social media, this maybe wouldn't have even been written about in local DC papers let alone international news media. Mr. Phillips shouldn't have entered the group of teenagers. The teenagers shouldn't have been jumped, whooped and made hand chopping motions at Mr. Phillips and his group. The Black Israelite's were maybe the worst offenders of the whole thing, shouting some pretty terrible stuff at the students and the Native American group but in particular one of the students who is African American. Part of this falls on the impact of media organizations rushing to publish "scoops" before cross interviewing, verifying information. For them it's just about making money, and outrage sells. Then there are social media networks, which are held to an even lower standard of journalistic integrity, where most things posted are basically made up. Add in celebrities and politicians who see stuff that is useful to them, and then crap is out in the public discourse, making everybody angry and lowering all of our IQ's in the process. I don't really know how much longer society can continue with this constant outrage, the hate and the counter hate. It's not about disagreement anymore, it's about destroying an "enemy". It's not about understanding the other, its about scoring points. It's about flashing our partisan bona-fides so we fit in to our in group. Societal politics have become blood-sport, and we're all going to be less happy, less safe and less prosperous for it. A ship that sinks takes with it all of it's passengers. Or maybe I'm just a pessimist and need to spend less time on the internet. Relating it all back to Scouting. Scouting is part of the antidote to some of this. Scouting's values of brotherhood and friendship to all is even more necessary today than it has been in many decades.

Great explanation. You don't owe her that explanation, and as others mentioned, it likely will not change anything. Feedback is a two way street and the receiver in this case has shown no signs she's willing to receive that feedback. Again, you do not owe her an explanation, no matter how much she demands one. You don't owe anybody from the troop an explanation unless you like them enough to let them in on it. Do not worry about the Troop dying. Almost no institutions last forever. You made attempts above and beyond to help that troop, and the committee nor the Scoutmaster, or the COR were willing to do what you believed was necessary. It was time for a split to happen. Don't look back. Enjoy your new trip, your Sons enjoying Scouting again, and reclaiming your sanity. You put up with way more than I ever would have.

Hey all! When I was reading the Feedback for Adult leader thread I was thinking about resources that have helped me learn more about Scouting and grow as an adult volunteer. I'm hoping members of the forum can contribute things they found helpful here so that we create a wiki resource for folks visiting the forum. As I said in that thread, I think the resources for folks to learn more about Scouting are out there, but people may not know where to look for them. Suggested materials (books, videos, podcasts, websites, blogs, ect.) to post: Any official BSA resources you've found helpful. Any official Scouting resources from overseas. Any historical Scouting resources you've found helpful. Any unofficial Scouting resources you've come across and found helpful. Any materials you or another Scouter have created that you find helpful. Non-Scouting materials that support the mission of Scouting. Please feel free to elaborate on why you found that resource helpful. Ground rules: Please do not post anything that violates Scouter.com's terms of service. Please do not post anything that contradicts official BSA rules and regulations. (Exception being historical materials, like old handbooks.) Please credit the original creator if you're citing their work. Not really necessary for official publications of a Scout Association. My contribution: "Working the Patrol Method" by four Eagle Scouts. Great book that outlines the role of adults in a patrol method troop. Has insightful short stories that illustrate concepts. "The Scoutmaster Podcast" by Clarke Green. Long running podcast that covers a variety of topics in American Scouting. Episodes are sorted by topic, making them easy to find. "Baden-Powell: Two Lives of a Hero" by William Hillcourt. - I found it helpful to have historical perspective on the life and motivations of the founder of the Scouting movement from one of the people who knew B.P best. What has helped you in your Scouting journey?

I'd rather the Districts/Council not have an inquisitorial staff. Rather this shouldn't be something adversarial in nature. It shouldn't be a performance review like at work. Rather, the BSA requires the basics (YPT, SM Specific, IOLS). Those need to be made stronger and more impactful. Beyond that, the leadership of a troop should desire self improvement. The resources are honestly in place in many places. Wood Badge can be part of that. Participating in Round tables if your district has ones that are useful. Participating in forums like these. There a number of wonderful books to read about Scouting that can make us better at what we do. Just like at work, we're at our best when we continue to grow, take on new challenges and learn new things. Is it unfortunate that some Troops run terrible programs, cause Scouts to leave Scouting and burnout otherwise excellent volunteers? Sure. But remember, Districts and Councils are equally capable of achieving that too. I generally think a soft power approach for this would work more effectively than a hard power approach.

This incident strikes close to home, as I live in that area, and I know some folks from Covington Catholic. Not sure I know any of the youth involved. As has been said, there are a lot of different interpretations one can draw from the various video's floating around based on which cut you watch. Most folks are going to sort into whichever camp supports their "tribe." For a lot of folks in my area the original headlines were pretty easy to take at face value, we've had some racially charged incidents across the Northern Kentucky/South Western Ohio region make the news over the last couple years. After watching some of the videos I'm not sure it's as clear cut as the headlines make it out to be. But as a Republican Catholic from the same area as the youth in question, I'm not sure I'm the most impartial arbiter of the truth in this situation. Other thoughts, if you're an activist of any stripe, why approach a bunch of teenagers? What were they expecting to accomplish? Where were the chaperones? Where was a law enforcement which normally makes sure various demonstrations and counter demonstrations don't overlap? Going a bit deeper in my own opinions, I'm a little disappointed to see all the MAGA hats at the March for Life. For those of us in the Pro Life camp, we've got to continue to win hearts and minds of folks that don't agree with us currently, and I can't think of any accessory that would close off opposing hearts and minds quite like a MAGA hat.

I'm not sure if you're trying to make my point for me, or rebut. 🤣 Either way. My point is that there are much bigger and more powerful forces at play than just "The Improved Scouting Program Sucked." Which I believe it did hurt Scouting. I don't believe it was a decisive as some folks make it out to be. I could be wrong, and I am generalizing, but it's my understanding that the BSA is less successful in the inner cities as it is in the suburbs and rural areas of America. That's not to say there aren't strong pockets of Scouting in urban areas, or areas where there are significant non-white membership. That's also not to say there's something wrong with white people being the majority of membership in the BSA. It would follow that since the US is majority white and historically has been, and the BSA plays host to many generational families of Scouts, that the BSA would be majority white. The BSA doesn't publish member demographics that I could find easily, but they do publish data on "Available youth." Notice that for the millennial and generation X folks, the ones who are having Scout age children now, are less likely to white than their previous generations. You can find that stat on page 22 of the report. Almost a 10% drop from Boomers to Millenials/Gen X, which would make up the last 20-30 years or so of Scouting youth. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/media/ES_American_Households.pdf This data is for the late 2000's early 2010's. US Demographic data over time can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States In short, my argument is that the BSA is primarily a less urban, majority white organization, that many immigrants and non-whites don't feel a particular connection to. Give the decline in birth rates, stagnating of white population in the US, increasing urbanization, and population growth via immigration of non-white people, the BSA has failed to adapt in far more ways than just the poorly thought out "Improved" Scouting program. There's an element of failure to market the program to people who aren't part of that core constituency. That's not to say the BSA hasn't tried, but I'd argue that they've failed. That's both a BSA failure, and local leadership failure to broaden the tent and recruit a more diverse membership. We can see by Scouting's global reach, that Scouting's message and ideals are about as close to universal as we could hope for. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Organization_of_the_Scout_Movement_members Combine that with all youth organizations in the US facing membership declines, slap on some poorly managed sex abuse, some culture war controversy, and it's pretty easy to see how the BSA's decline in membership is multifaceted and complex. It's far too simple to say "Improved Scouting Program killed the BSA.There's a bunch of variables and those things may or may not be a significant contributing factor.

The birthrate of American children also nearly halved in that time period. It's difficult to pinpoint how much of the decline was based on the "Improved' Scouting program, and how much of it was demographic destiny.

Male or Female, I'm going to refer to Scouts that are ages 11-17 "Scouts." Just like I have since I became an adult leader. I don't have a problem with referring to it as Scouts BSA if that's what the BSA wants it to be called, but otherwise I plan to refer to the program for 11-17 year olds as "Boy Scouts." If there are girls involved, I'm calling it "Scouts" or "Scouting" or "Scouts BSA." I've effectively "retired" from my Troop, but we're staying all Boys. We have no intention to start a Girls Troop. So for us, it's remaining "Boy Scouts." We'll refer any interested girls to a troop in town that has a very successful venturing crew and is starting a girls troop. To start our own at this juncture might simply cripple both groups. Our troop leadership wishes the other troop starting a girls unit great success.

It's happened at both of my council's camps in 2016 on the same night. One tent was unoccupied. The other had a Scout in it. His patrol mates jumped into action and got help, and he made it through well, and he can still walk, play sports and is involved in Scouting still. We are very fortunate and grateful. My council has since aggressively targeted dangerous trees that are near campsites for removal, but as @JoeBob stated, that can have some unintended consequences. A buddy of mine sent me a shot of the tree that landed on the unoccupied tent. I've included an article about the Scout that was struck and survived. https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2017/06/15/boy-scout-survives-tree-fall/399519001/

Especially after Fascist Italy coped all the Imperial Roman Imagery during their regime. Native American imagery was the right move for the OA at it's founding. It was something distinctly American. I think the OA has some bigger challenges facing it than what symbols it uses. @sst3rd summed it up pretty well. I liked the video. I remember hearing something similar, but I can't remember where I heard that story of the first OA ceremony. Good stuff.

Nah. US media will spin it. Positive stories don't get clicks. Only scandal and destruction. The headline will be: "BSA throws expensive international event while declaring bankruptcy to avoid creditors."

I've always heard it as the "12 points" of the "Scout Law." Ymmv.

For Philmont stoves I second @69RoadRunner, I do not recommend jetboils or pocket rocket style stoves that screw onto the top of the canisters. Philmont encourages cooking in one or two large pots. Putting a large pot on top of a canister stove is going to be a tipping hazard. A pocket rocket's arms literally cannot take the reflected heat and weight. Last Philmont trek I went on, we used one of these. https://www.msrgear.com/windpro-ii Other manufacturers make similar models with similar or better performance for less cost. These are more stable, while still getting to use the ispro butane vs white gas. I believe my crew of 12 went through about 4-6 canisters of the 13 ounce variety. @69RoadRunner recommended a similiar lower cost version. If I was outfitting a Scout group, I'd go with something like that. At least when I was at Philmont in 2015, the availability of the isopro containers wasn't an issue at the commissarys.

Yikes

The other thing we aren't considering is the boondoggle that is the Summit. This article is a few years old, and predates the loss of the LDS partnership. I can only imagine these numbers are even more grim today. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boyscouts-finances-specialreport/special-report-a-439-million-camp-adds-to-boy-scouts-money-crunch-idUSBRE96E08B20130715

As a Catholic, I've seen several dioceses declare bankruptcy due to the sex abuse crisis. Victims deserved to be heard and compensated for the failures of leadership to protect them and hold predators accountable for their crimes. For the church, I think of the beautiful old churches closed, sold and demolished. The charities damaged by the declining donations from scandalized Catholics. The elderly Priests and other religious who have spent their lives serving others, and now some diocese struggle to financially care for them. The people who will reject the teachings of Jesus because of the association with child molesters and sex abusers. You can see a list of Catholic diocese's that have paid out settlements or declared bankruptcy here: https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/catholic-dioceses-and-orders-filed-bankruptcy-and-other-major-settlements. If the scope of abuse and damages are similar for the BSA, I'm not sure how the BSA survives, especially with states retroactively increasing the statute of limitations for these sorts of crimes. We'll see where it goes for the BSA, but I've seen this movie before and haven't made it to the ending quite yet, and now I get to watch a parade of damaged victims and another institution I deeply care about be destroyed by the evil deeds of predators, and the weakness of leadership that put reputation over people. I'm not sure there is any sense to make out of this. All we can do is be vigilant in our own neck of the woods, hope the victims find peace and receive justice, and that Scouting continues in some form or another.

I'd consider myself fairly religious. I guess you could consider it a prayer of sorts. I do ask God to help me identify what is will is for my life. I appreciate your kind words. I should also thank the many members of this forum. I've learned a great deal of things about Scouting and life from my time here. I will still be dropping in from time to time here, but like my Troop, I'll have less to contribute as I scale back how much time I spend on Scouting.