Sentinel947

Merry Christmas to all!

I think there is a tendency to reinforce negative thinking on a forum. Not necessarily because we're negative, but because the positive things are happening in our units, district and council, and we come here for support on the things that aren't going so well. I don't think this requires a whole new thread, but I'm greatly optimistic for my troop. The New Scoutmaster took over in May, and from May until now I've done my best to support him and pick up slack as he learns his role. I found out in November that I've been accepted to Graduate school, and that starts in January for me. I'll have classes in the evenings during the Troop meetings, so I'm going from 60 to 0 pretty quickly with Scouting and my Troop. I'm staffing NYLT this coming summer, but I'm not sure what my future in Scouting looks like beyond this summer. I will likely occasionally drop in on Eagle projects or Eagle Court of Honors. My program will take me about 2 and half years to complete, and afterwards I don't expect to return to "active duty" with my Troop. There will be several new classes of Scouts and parents that won't know me, and the current leadership I do know will be winding down their involvement. It'd be a weird time to jump back in. A few weeks ago I arranged a meeting with all of the ASM's, current Scoutmaster and the previous Scoutmaster. We talked about the Troop, the transition, what was going well, what wasn't. We also talked about our availability and interest for the 2019. The previous Scoutmaster and I are considered reserves going forward and we charted the exit for another experienced ASM who's son is almost aged out. We identified who would take over as Scoutmaster if something happened to our current SM (sons dropped out, job caused a relocation...ect.) That leaves us with about 3 active ASM's available for meetings and outings in 2019 with one other that exclusively handles high adventure stuff. We also identified a few potential candidates to become ASM's this year. Our goal with this is for the Scoutmaster to be able to focus on the Patrol method, while the other ASM's provide coaching to the ASPL's and other troop positions when needed. (We have about 60 registered Scouts.) In the past ASM duties were mostly ad hoc spur of the moment type stuff with some delegation from the Scoutmaster. Overall I'm thrilled, because I think the Troop has the adult leaders in place and the organization to really help our scouts take it's next steps into becoming more effective as a youth led troop and utilizing the patrol method. After years of pushing, things are starting to click on the patrol method. The Scouts had patrol leader elections last week, and for the first time in a long time we didn't have patrols merge, rename or significantly shuffle membership. I took a picture of the Troop and patrol flags last night, because it was the first time in a long time where the patrol identity stuff has stuck for us over a term (6 months) of life in the Troop. Short of the Scoutmaster or next SPL doing a 180 turn on the patrol method, it appears to be here to stay. (Note, we have to meet in the church's preschool room due to advent activities in the church fellowship hall, so enjoy the decorations in the background!) I'm proud of what the Scouts, ASM and current and previous SM have accomplished, the program we've put on, the lives we've changed. I'm grateful that the transition has gone mostly well, as we all know, it can be dangerous time for a troop program. I'm thrilled to see new parents step into roles on the Committee and as ASM's. I'm disappointed that for me, my time with my Troop has just about come to an end, but I'm optimistic that the Troop will continue to do great things for our Scouts and our community. I hope I've made a positive impact on the Troop, because it's definitely changed my life for the better. I know I'll continue supporting Scouting in different ways going forward, and I'm excited to see what my next chapter in Scouting will look like. Isn't that why we do all this after all?

Always the option of finding another Troop if you don't like the leadership of the current one. The other option is to talk directly to the Committee Chair about your concerns. They decide who sits on the committee, and in what capacity. A third option is talk to to a district commissioner if your unit has one, they may be able to help mediate. As for the boat, it's pretty straight cut and dry for me. Either it belongs to the Troop( actually the CO), and the Troop should fix it, then retain control of the boat after it's repaired. Or it's privately held, and the owner lets the Troop use it. If the Scouts didn't actually damage the boat, then the Troop isn't obligated to pay for repairs, but might contribute since the owner lets the Scouts borrow the boat and that put some wear and tear on the boat. "Contribute" doesn't mean pay for the whole repair. If there was a Scout who damaged the boat by being careless or reckless, I'd be more inclined to have the Troop cover a more substantial amount or all of it. I'm extremely uncomfortable with an arrangement where Troop (CO) owned property, is titled to somebody affiliated with the Troop, and not the Troop(CO) itself. I'm in a similar spot to the "old guard" types. I'm an adult in the program without any kids in the Troop. Even at 25, I'm the 2nd longest active tenured member of the Troop. I've learned through the last Scoutmaster transition that my role needs to become less active and more advisory in a nature. Part of that is starting Graduate school, but part of that is also that I've had my shot to influence the Troop as an adult from 2011-2017, and it's time to make room for others to leave their mark on the Troop. The previous Scoutmaster feels similarly, we need to create room for the new Scoutmaster to create his own team, and chase his own vision of success for our Scouts. I think it's important for "Old Guard' members of a troop to be open minded to new ideas from newer parents and Scouts, and if they cannot tolerate the direction a new Scoutmaster or Committee Chair wants to go in, they should use their power of giving helpful advice, or maybe it's time to move on to other areas of Scouting (District, Council level volunteering.) It's important for new parents and leaders to respect and consider the advise of the "Old Guard." Many on this forum would qualify as "old Guard". Leaders with a decade or more in the Scouting program, without kids in the program. They've seen some things. They've been that optimistic and big dreaming new leader before. Some have been that parent with questions and concerns before. Long tenured leaders an important link to the history of a unit, and those who are truly ""Old" Guard" have an important link to the history of the district, council and development and changes of Scouting as a whole. Just my two cents. I've yet to have a problem infiltrating the old guard.

I think it'd be hard to sell too. It's in the middle of nowhere. People only come their because it's Philmont. People only work there for low pay because it's Philmont. Remove the property from being a BSA property, and it loses much of it's value. The only thing it would be sold for is resource extraction, and that'd be a darn shame.

What effect would National's bankruptcy have on the Councils?

World War one also had the loss of German and Ottoman possessions in Africa and the Middle East. The arbitrary borders drawn by England and France creates many of the problems those regions have today.

This lines up at what I was told at the WoodBadge/NYLT CDC last month.

I was in your shoes. Eagle at 17. Did some Scouter reserve and jumped in as an ASM officially at late 18 or 19 years old. Wait on Wood Badge. It would be more helpful later on as a refresher. I took it at 22. As for IOLS and SM specific, you have to take them to be an ASM, and if you're anything like me, I helped teach my IOLs. Made some lemonade out of those lemons. Also, sometimes troops are bad. So the training can be corrective for folks who had weak troops as a youth. I definitely learned a few things from SM specific and I was in one of the "good" troops. If you didn't, great! That's a positive sign for your unit. Being a young ASM has been incredibly rewarding. My troop is better for my efforts and I'd be a much lesser man today if I didn't do it. Happy to talk more about it! Keep after it!

@Eagle94-A1 This is for the best. Both for you and your sons. Find a unit that gets it and appreciates your help.

I thought Wood Badge had some helpful offerings in how to run a unit, but they were incidental and part of other topics. It certainly wasn't the nuts and bolts of how to plan a program or run a unit. I think that's actually a huge hole in the training curriculum of SM Specific/IOLS --> Wood Badge. Conversations/presentations on Sample Troop/Patrol meetings, conflict resolution, coaching and mentoring of youth, servant leadership concepts. At least in my course, one of the five tickets could be a personal goal. One of the five needed to be related to diversity in scouting. The other three needed to be related to scouting at the unit, district or council level. 4 of mine were connected to my unit, and one other was for other was for the council summer camp. I definitely grant that if you've received good leadership training through work or the military, many of the training tools will be familiar. I didn't really feel like the program taught me much about managing adult volunteers, other than providing a sense of what our common purpose was. The course does teach various leadership concepts like EDGE, Communication skills or Stages of Team development, but I think those things are in the course to mirror NYLT. The purpose of teaching those in Wood Badge are to help Scouts utilize those concepts in their leadership of the troop just as much as managing adult volunteers. For me, Wood Badge's value is definitely tied to whether a unit encourages their Scouts to go to NYLT. Wood Badge loses a lot of it's value otherwise if the purpose of Wood Badge is about giving adults tools and experiences to work with youth. I think experienced Scouters moving on to the district or council can be helpful as long as they don't under-staff the units. There are many units that could use support from the district or council, so there's a definite need for experienced Scouters to help plan camporees, provide training, or mentor unit leaders as District Commissioners. It also keeps Scouters from sitting in units forever and denying new adult leadership the opportunity to be part of the unit leadership. (Directly or indirectly). Unfortunately, I've also seen the wrong folks gravitate towards the District and Council, who are always so desperate for volunteers they'll never say no.

@Summitdog Welcome to Scouter.com. Full disclosure, I've attended Wood Badge, will probably staff it in the next few years. I like @qwazse's list. We've actually recently discussed some support and objections to Wood Badge in a thread located here. https://www.scouter.com/topic/30580-wood-badge-roses-and-thorns/?page=1 . The value of the course is dependent on your local area and the culture created by your council and staff. I recommend talking to Scouters you know and respect in your council to get the scoop. If your council's program is not good, a neighboring council may have a convenient course. There are two different and separate critiques of the program. One is that the material isn't useful, which I dispute. I found it useful. The other is that the course is poorly ran or clickish, which I absolutely grant. It's a local problem. Many of the Scouters on this website who are critical of Wood Badge already have high performing units, and have been treated poorly by Wood Badge staff who are missing the point of what the training is for. Wood Badge is a means to an end of helping Scouters by giving them leadership training and encouragement to take back to running their units. It's not about creating some special club of Wood Badge graduates. Wood Badge, like the district or council, exists to serve the units. Not the other way around. For plenty of these folks, Wood Badge would have very limited value at this point in their Scouting. They've learned anything Wood Badge would teach them, which is a testament to their self education or the culture of their unit! In my personal opinion the biggest value to Wood Badge is to newer Scouters but not brand new ones. Maybe in your second or third year in the unit. Done properly it should provide a good example to you of the patrol method and some leadership training to help you organize your unit to be a youth conceived and lead program. Wood Badge has strong value because it is tied to the youth training in NYLT. If you have youth from your unit in leadership positions of responsibility roles like Patrol Leader, Guide, Assistant Senior Patrol Leader, or Senior Patrol Leader, you taking Wood Badge will give you the equivalent training so you will understand their experiences and what they learned from NYLT if your Scouts partake in that program. You'll also get some strong doses of Scouting culture, plenty of silly games and songs. I enjoy that aspect of stuff, but it can definitely turn people off. So how did Wood Badge help me? In short, I met some great mentors I still look to for guidance. It gave me a refresher on leadership training skills my scouts are taught at NYLT. It gave me some shared knowledge and experience with my troop's past and present Scoutmaster, both of whom were pretty new to the Boy Scout program. Despite some comments otherwise here, your tickets can and should be aimed at your unit. My tickets were not terribly hard, but were items primarily to assist the troop. There were also things I'd likely do anyways in my role as an Assistant Scoutmaster. It was helpful for me to fully understand my role as an Adult volunteer in Scouting, and unlearn some sub optimal practices my unit practiced at the time. You're not a lesser Scouter if you choose not attend Wood Badge, but I encourage you to do some research into your councils offering and if the culture sounds healthy, you are in the target audience with the most to gain from the course.

When it comes to athletic endeavors? Maybe your Scouts and Scouters are above average athletically, and certainly some of mine are, but plenty of them are not. Hence, average.

If you take a slice of any group of American adults, the majority would be overweight. Given the sedentary nature of work in America today, and the large amount of calories in processed food, it's inevitable that many Americans are overweight. Most of the Scouters I know are overweight to some degree. Some of the best Scouters I've volunteered with on the district or council level were overweight folks. I'd hike circles around them on a backpacking trip, but they have excellent character and are fantastic mentors of youth that I've been honored to know. Certainly physical fitness is something we should encourage in our Scouts and our adult leadership. For better or for worse, Scouting is going to reflect the average of society. That includes our adult leadership. Many of my assistant Scoutmasters and Scoutmasters growing up were on the heavier side. Not morbidly so, but certainly overweight. Many of them worked quite hard to be in enough shape to do trips like Northern Tier or Philmont. Being Scouters was a big part of what forced them to get their acts together, eat better, exercise more, and become healthier.

You've done your best to work through it. You've ensured there is adequate succession for the pack. Well done. Going forward, from Cubs to Boy Scouts, it's a big transition if you haven't already been involved with the Troop. Take some time to get adjusted, and to de-stress from your cub pack time.

That may be folks at your local council. I took NRA Rifle Instructor training and didn't get anything close to that amount of advertising materials. It was straightforward apolitical training.

I'm not a SM, but I've been an ASM for a while now. My only advice is to build up your ASM team, develop them. And figure out which ones would be your substitute SM when you cannot make an event. There are some things in your marriage or the lives of your family that are more important than a Scout trip or outing, so build up the team that will help you achieve that. The current SM and Committee Chair can help you get that process going. Best of luck to you!

My troop typically does one outing in August that is open to families. Any more than that is my breaking point. I'm not in this to chaperone family camping trips, nor would I be necessary.

I'm glad I met your expectations. I've got a nasty tongue. It's a personal character flaw of mine. I'm not sure I'd have your discipline.

I'd add http://scoutleadership.com/ "Working the Patrol Method." It's an easy read, digestible book. The Scoutmaster is the top guy, so if you want to effect change, you have to lead from behind, or below, without undermining him. The ideal position for you to be in is an ASM, where you can serve as an adviser to the Scoutmaster and potential work with the Scouts, with the Scoutmasters approval. The issues your troop are having is common for troops. There are few extremes from my experience. There's what I call "Webelos 3" which is where the adults treat Boy Scouts like cub scouts, and smother them with advancement and doing things for them. There's "Lord of the Flies", where the adults are overly hands off with the Scouts. The Scouts flounder because they have no training and no framework to operate in. It's much like trying to play a game where you don't know the rules, only nobody's refereeing anyways. In a situation like your's I advise Scoutmasters to start from the SPL down. Get the SPL trained and proper coaching from the adults, and allow him to build up his patrol leaders, who will in turn build up their patrols. A few ASM's to support and coach other troop leadership positions are helpful so the SM can focus on the SPL and PLs. Your troop is small enough that really the Scoutmaster and another ASM or two are sufficient. Too many cooks in the kitchen can cause confusion for the Scouts.

I won't take that much credit. I'm following the leadership of folks in my council. I'm trying to learn for when I get tapped to take on Scoutmaster at NYLT or higher level positions at Wood Badge. I've been turning down requests to volunteer at the district, but with my time in the troop starting to reach it's natural conclusion, I may pick up some district volunteering as a chance to keep involved while I'm working my MBA. So while I have good role models in those programs to learn from, people on this forum who have very different experience are important to hear from and learn from as well. This forum is such a wonderful opportunity to share those experiences. Scouting isn't a unique environment in regards to forming clicks or good ole boy (or gal) clubs. I saw it in college with fraternities and sororities. I've seen it with politics and religion. I've seen it in the workplace with gender or department. All this stuff creates a breakdown of trust between the in-group and the out-group, and that breakdown leads to contempt of those who are being treated as lesser. In Scouting if we're being treated as lesser while volunteering our time and talent, contempt builds pretty quickly. It's a natural human behavior to build sub cultures, to build in groups, special classes of peoples. In some organizations that might even be desirable, but in the Scouting, I think we can all agree it most certainly is not. I think the Scout Oath, Law, and Servant Leadership concepts are an obvious guidepost for us to measure our behavior. In NYLT (again I'm sure there was something similar in Wood Badge, I'm just not as familiar with the syllabus) there is a presentation about "Making Ethical decisions." It encourages the use of the Scout Oath and Law as a framework for making decisions and evaluating behavior. Is high pressure tactics, being dismissive of others without beads, making sexual innuendo around other scouters, teasing folks with inside jokes, public humiliation, and taking the spotlight away from other events to focus on themselves living the Scout Oath and Law? Most of us would say it's not. The problem with this approach is it requires either one of two things, self awareness, or somebody to buck the group think and call out inappropriate behavior. Given my (admittedly short) life experience I'm not holding my breath that folks will do either of those things because of the social costs. So it's important to build the right culture from the beginning. I remember one of my ASM's lectures from when I was a youth. I'd screwed up, put myself and others in danger. He told me "Having memorized and repeating the Scout Oath and Law each week is one thing, but understanding it and living it is the more important thing." He also gave me the typical lecture that "I was an older scout (I was 14 or so) and that other scouts in the troop were always watching me, and that they looked up to me and whether I believe him or not. " He was typically a pretty friendly easy going guy, so that particular adult correction stuck with me because of his sincerity and that fact he was expecting me to act like a leader and role model, not a dumb kid. This comes back to my earlier comment about being ambassadors for Scouting. One of my favorite compliments I ever receive is when a co-worker or acquaintance finds out I'm an Eagle Scout and goes "Yea, that's not a surprise." Some of it is probably because I'm a dork, I camp a lot, but also because (at least I think) I conduct myself with respect to others and integrity. My final thought (see @desertrat77 I told you I had a lot of long rambling thoughts on this subject!) is that sometimes we have to run into the metaphorical burning building. I encourage a lot of the type 1 folks to seriously reconsider taking Wood Badge. The course needs Scouters of your caliber and experience. Potentially in the future, it gives you the opportunity to help lead your council's WB or NYLT program to a better place if they're in sore shape now. If all the good people run away from Wood Badge, then only the self important good ole boys will remain. Easier said than done for me, because my council doesn't have that uphill slog to fight. But something for folks to consider. Like I said earlier, the council pros who oversee those courses in your council are responsible for the volunteers, their conduct, the outcome of the course and the culture that is being built there. Some folks on the forums here are probably old enough when the sex abuse cases for the BSA started getting press in the news and probably had a question asked of them. "How can you be part of an organization like that?" Why'd you stay? Because Scouting is important and worth fighting for. In my opinion a training like Wood Badge, that can orient newer leaders and refresh more experienced leaders is something worth fighting for. I think for once I'm out of two cents to give on a topic. @desertrat77 or @RememberSchiff maybe these last few pages regarding Wood Badge could be spun off as a new thread to the Training sub forum? I think we've(mostly me?) have strayed really off the original topic!

Yea. Again, a lot of this are local situations, so it's hard to pull hard data on this kind of thing. As for general criticisms, I've learned to not take it personally. I try to look at where people's opinions come from, and take them as a challenge for my own conduct, and an opportunity to effect things I can control. Maybe there are misconceptions I can correct. I come back to religion as a similar parallel to Scouting, and Wood Badge in general. Like proselyting a religion, we're trying to sell folks on an idea and program of self improvement and growth. If the messenger is flawed, the message, however good, will not received well. Looking at my religion, Roman Catholicism as an example, look at the many spineless bureaucrats and outright predators wearing the cardinals cassock, the church has been closing off the hearts and minds to many of the salvation possible through Jesus Christ. Not because the message is bad, but because the messengers do not inspire confidence in the listener. Even when there are faithful, pious and good clergy and laity, we cannot separate ourselves in the public perception from the shameful and evil behavior of our coreligionists. To use Scouting as example, I have an acquaintance through a mutual friend that jokingly calls me a pedophile anytime I mention Scouting. That's his perception of Scouting. How does one fix that sort of thing?

Thanks! I really enjoyed Wood Badge, but I try to be open minded about where it can be better. I had "type 1" and "type 2" adults in my unit when I was a scout growing up. I jumped into Wood Badge at 22 mostly as a way to encourage our Scoutmaster to go. He needed it. It made him a better Scoutmaster, but it wasn't some enlightening experience for either of us. Good training, fun, I still keep in touch with many staff and participants from my course, but not anything the way some folks rave about Wood Badge. Still, I have a pretty positive impression of it. I don't even know if I was a Scout when that happened. I do know with the updates they are making to WB21, they won't require folks to retake WB to be "current." My expanded thoughts are more based around NYLT than Wood Badge, because I haven't staffed Wood Badge, but I think they apply to both. Selling the course I think folks sell Wood Badge pretty poorly. "It's a mountain top experience." "It's my Eagle", that sorta stuff. It sets folks up to be underwhelmed by Wood Badge. Hopefully it's good training. It should be fun. It should challenge us to improve our units and give us some ideas on how to accomplish that. It's not the pinnacle Scouting experience. Wood Badge is a means to an end, not an end unto on it's own. It's equipping us to help our youth have those great Scouting experiences. My "greatest accomplishments" as a Scouter were working with and coaching my Scouts. Seeing them grow, develop, learn and overcome challenges. That's both true for Scouts in my unit, and some of the youth I staffed with last summer at NYLT. Working with those youth has changed my life, more than participating in Wood Badge ever could have. There's some threads on this website about "Scouting Wins", "Scoutmaster paychecks." Those are the real "Mountaintop experiences" for a Scouter. We've all had those, Wood Badger or not. NYLT is a bit more of a pinnacle experience for Scouts because it's something really fresh to them. Most troops do not run the patrol method, as we all know. Scouts haven't likely experienced something like NYLT. I know when I was a Scout it really changed my perception of leadership from that of a boss or a taskmaster to that of somebody who is a servant leader who puts others first and helps them achieve their (and our) goals. If their troop is really adult ran, then it's also a fresh opportunity for them to see what Scouting is really supposed to be like. NYLT changed my perception of what Scouting was about, and kept me fully engaged when I was 16-17 and finishing up my Eagle. It motivated me to keep active and provide service to my troop vs just hunker down and work on my Eagle. I've caught my own Scouts doing the NYLT click thing. My troop has a Court of Honor in August. We sent 5 Scouts to NYLT this summer. We have our Scouts come up, be recognized for what summer camps, high adventure, NYLT things they did over the summer. My NYLT scouts talked about how much fun the course was, but they also decided to sing a particularly annoying song they learned at NYLT, that nobody else in my Troop knows. It wasn't quite the Critter song level of pain (because it was brief) but it definitely is a similar situation. Thankfully, my Scouts "walk the walk" from what they learned at NYLT, and it's made a strong difference in my unit. My unit has 4 scouts who have applied to be on staff, and two scouters from my unit going back to staff for 2019. I sell Wood Badge to Scouters through NYLT. I encourage them to send their Scouts to NYLT. I think the best place for this is at training events. Our NYLT youth staff are awesome, and help scouters teach many of our courses like UOS classes, IOLS, SM Specific, and even some skills training at Wood Badge. They staff many of our council and district events like camporees. Hopefully seeing these Scouts in action encourages leaders to offer NYLT to their Scouts, who often don't know much about NYLT unless a leader, parent or older Scout tells them. Then the sales pitch for Wood Badge is less about joining the WB cult and more of "If you're not sure how you can support and reinforce what your Scout has learned at NYLT, come to Wood Badge." I do think there is a place for silly inside jokes like the Critter song and other Wood Badge jokes, but they need to be used in their proper places and times, and should not be used to sell the program. Scouting about the youth, and Wood Badge and NYLT should also be about how we serve youth. They are for no other purpose in my opinion. Selling Wood Badge feels similar to me as religious evangelism. If I "walk the walk", if I'm friendly, helpful, courteous and kind, then selling the course to others around me should be pretty easy. No hard sales pitch needed. Without that personal connection, I might as well be selling cutco knives, or cable tv to people. How do you fix it? I honestly think it comes down to the pros shaping the Wood Badge/NYLT culture in their councils. They need to have folks who care about the participants more than themselves, who teach the material as it is in the syllabus (AKA give people what they paid for), but also get experienced and knowledgeable folks who can tie the material and simulations of Wood Badge to the actual thing in a unit. Then there's having the logistics aspects (FOOD) on point, and a trained staff that doesn't kill braincells via powerpoint. There is room in each course syllabus to add little local flavors to things, if those are things that further the goals of the course. I wish there was more skills training at Wood Badge, but that's beyond my scope of control, so I won't hold that against the current course. This is all predicated on a WB or NYLT staff having the right intentions. I helped my staff do interviews for our upcoming NYLT course. We had one Scout who interviewed, and much of the time he talked about how being on staff would benefit him, not how he'd help others by being on staff. Very similar to some adults who want to staff WB/NYLT staff so they can get their 3rd bead. The SPL for our course will pick his staff with his ASPLS, but I'll strongly encourage him to avoid folks like that. Yes being on staff will help the staffers, but that's a secondary effect, not a primary reason. The participants are the primary reason. If our course staffs have the right intentions, much of the rudeness, the lack of "walking the walk", and the special club nature of things should lessen. As I said in my earlier post. Humility, friendliness, helpfulness, knowledge are what we need out of WB or NYLT staff. By and large most of the staff I've worked with are those kind of people, but I also know a few staffers who were not. They were caught up in Wood Badge as an end, not WB as a means to an end. All of us as Scouters are ambassadors for Scouting, whether we realize it or not. When other people know we are Scouters, that colors their perception of Scouting. The same is true of Wood Badge. We are ambassadors for the course, and other people's perceptions of that are based of how we act and treat others. My council: My council NYLT and WB leadership has the right idea. They know that the courses exist to serve the units. Particularly NYLT has gone through a culture shift over the last 5 years as the folks who'd made it a good ole boys club have been put out to pasture. We've done quite a bit to break up stale cultures. Scouters can only be a Scoutmaster/Course director twice. Youth can only be SPL once. SPL's can only choose one staffer to be ASPL that they staffed with the previous year. We don't have as formal a rule on the adult side, but due to a shortage of adults volunteering for NYLT, we don't exactly need one. This has gone a long way to break up clics in our NYLT program. I'm not sure whats in place for our WB program, but I think it's similar. My council also doesn't allow a Scouter to staff Wood Badge and NYLT in the same year, in order to keep a handful of folks from controlling both programs. We're definitely not perfect, but I know things have improved quite a bit from where they were a few years ago culture wise. Another thing that helps in my council is we have an annual Wood Badge dinner. We pair it with a dinner at a NYLT development weekend. It serves a few purposes. It helps us advertise NYLT to troop leadership. It helps us recruit adults to NYLT staff (since most folks at the dinner are Wood Badgers.) It's also an opportunity to do a mass beading ceremony in front of people who won't be bored and it won't hijack another event. I got my beads there, because I knew my Scouts from my Troop wouldn't really care, and my Wood Badge Scoutmaster had a habit for being long-winded. We also do some silent auctioning of Scouting and WB items, the money goes to scholarships for NYLT and Wood Badge. Again, just my opinions and experiences, Feel free to agree or disagree. I like the feedback. As an ASM of program for an NYLT course this year, it gives me things to be on the lookout for in how we sell WB/NYLT and how we train the staff.

Absolutely. My comment here has some bolding for emphasis and clarity. As a lot of Wood Badgers in my area like to say "Feedback is a gift." I've actually really enjoyed this thread, because it gives me things to look for in my own Councils' NYLT and Wood Badge programs. Obviously not all these critiques apply to every Wood Badger or every Wood Badge program, but it's still great feedback. I obviously can't speak for every Council, but I think mine has a decent handle on some of these things with our Wood Badge and NYLT programs. I definitely do see some of these critiques in my council. To summarize: Lack of humility Being dismissive of non Woodbadgers/NYLT Treating other Wood Badgers poorly. Co-opting other events to do Wood Badge stuff. Frankly the youth don't care. I know I didn't when I was a Scout. Not "Walking the Walk" Hazing of participants. Stealing items, singing for lost items, talking smack about people. Inside jokes in public. -The Critter song, Beading ceremonies are examples of this. Not using the stuff taught in Wood Badge in their units. Any Wood Badge graduate who is not attempting to use the patrol method in their troop should "retire". Being one of those who just sits around at council/district events and act like an authority figure. Sales tactics Overselling/over pushing Wood Badge/NYLT. -Guilt tripping. Being secretive about the course vs transparent. It's a training course, not a secret fraternity. There are two different types of Scouters that dislike Wood Badge I think. Their reasons are similar, but not the same. Type one are the ones on this forum, are the kind that have been treated poorly by Wood Badge folks, and they have a the right ideas on how to run their troops anyways. Wood Badge is already preaching to the choir for them. So it's less about the material and more about the time the program takes, the fact they won't learn much from it, and that the Wood Badge folks in their area aren't good ambassadors for the program. The second type are folks who are out running their own programs, not a Scout troop. They look as Wood Badge as threatening because it'll contradict their own little fiefdoms. These folks are going to be really rare on a forum like this, because they already think they know everything. It's critical not to lump type 1 and type 2 together. Like most things in life, the way to fix the divide between type one people and Wood Badge is for us as Wood Badge folks to listen seriously to their concerns, and do our best to adapt our behavior. Ultimately, Type 1 and Wood Badge folks are on the same side. We have the same goals for the program, so to let a training course get in the way of that is really shortsighted. One of the best Assistant Scoutmaster I had as a youth never went to Wood Badge. He was to put off by the behavior of some of the staff. The best form of advertising of most things is for it to perform. For Wood Badge, that means that we're helpful to other scouters, we run our troops according to the principles we promote, and that we're humble, friendly and encouraging, vs acting like elitists. There's so much more I could probably say on this topic, but I don't want to make this comment even longer and harder to read.

I've completed NYLT (2009), and Wood Badge (2015) and also served as adult staff on NYLT(2018). They are incredibly similar courses. Their content is similar. Where they differ (or should if they're done right) is the mindset the participant should be in. NYLT a Scout is supposed to live the life of a scout in a model troop and participate in the activities that challenge them and their patrol. Wood Badge is similar, but it's more about witnessing and participating in how a model troop is run, and the presentations are tied back to how adults can coach youth in leading the troop. Wood Badge in 2015 was a great chance for me to review the things I'd learned at NYLT and how they applied to me as an adult working with youth, instead of the soon to be SPL I was back in 2009. I'm excited to be sharing that experience with another great group of staff and participants in 2019. To be frank, we're fighting an uphill battle here. The reality is new adult leaders do not go straight off to the training. They enter a cub scout pack or boy scout troop, and that is there default experience against which they view any subsequent training. If that adult was a Scout in their youth, than they are also viewing the training through the prism of their own scout experience (for better or for worse.) When I took Scoutmaster Specific Training and IOLs in 2012, I was basically able to teach IOLS (and did help the instructor.) Scoutmaster Fundamentals was a revelation for me, because I realized how much room my troop had for improvement from the adult side of the program. It was a pretty good troop when I was growing up, but it's patrol method was lacking ( and in many ways still is, despite many efforts over the last 6 years.) If a leader is not the Scoutmaster, they are pretty powerless to effect change in a unit, they can only influence through persuasion. Then there is a ton of friction and challenge to getting an organizations adults and scouts to accept a change AND get it to stick. Many leaders are going into Boy Scout Troops where the patrol method is only given lip service, and where the Scouts are executing the plans of adults (best case scenario). Worst case it's a camping club with scout advancement run by adults. Even the best training is going to have an uphill battle against that kind of ingrained expectations. In places where training isn't well done, or the trainers aren't strong, knowledgeable, or helpful, I'm not really sure what impact changing the training would have.

So they utterly missed the fact that the staff is roleplaying the role of scouts and not adults? 🙃