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Well, it all sounds as baffling as counting service hours to me . My general principle: inasmuch as scouting is a game, play by the rules as written. Inasmuch as scouting provides personal growth, guide each scout towards the next big thing. I'm barely keeping up with our Guide to Advancement, so I'm not about to dig through yours. You need to determine what latitude the written rules give you -- all the time following my Rule number 1: Don't ask for a ruling. Someone will give you one, and you'll regret it! Then you need to walk through those rules with the PLC in the most efficient way possible. (Best practice: have them read the pertinent articles to each other.) Then ask "How can we make it fair for Jane, but not too easy for Robert?" With your first aid example, I'd think you would want to plan a first aid meet or wilderness first aid weekend where scouts have to demonstrate skills from lowest to highest stages. (This includes totems for "best portrayal of a 3 year old with a cut finger", etc ...). Your camping nights example is confusing to me. That may be that is a hot-button issue on this side of the pond, as this year-full of replies to this blog post attests: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/24/ask-expert-isnt-camping-night-camping-mb/,

So, I am reviving this thread because it runs parallel to your other thread http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/28118-adult-led-troops/?p=437350. Based on what you've written there: Your older boys are not abandoning troop responsibilities because venturing is more fun than boy scouts. The troop is being lead without them. Clearly it will do just fine in their absence because the adults make sure everything runs on time and on schedule. Your SM (along with his ASMs) has sucked the air out of the room. If a young man is going to mature as a leader, he will instinctively find areas where he is solely responsible for what happens in his circle. He will shun positions of responsibility that amount to little more than a patch on his left sleeve. On the bright side, this may be an angle for you to begin to crack the cycle of adult leadership in your troop. The next time the SM gripes, tell him, "Well maybe if the boys actually had responsibilities that should they fail, real hiccups (instead of bailouts) ensue, they might feel needed in the troop like they do in the crew."

Don't apologize, this is how we get a better picture is what's going on in your troop. I think I understand your other thread about boys abandoning your troop for venturing. And the one about faster hikers leaving younger ones far behind. Your troop's older boys are looking for a space of their own, and will continue to look outside of troop so long as the adults behave this way. Let's be clear, they aren't looking for someplace to cause trouble without getting caught. (Well at least most of them probably aren't.) They are looking for a place where they can be trusted to lead. That's one reason the best troop campsite is a big old field with adults and patrols set 100 yards apart from each other. You could, at some point ask the SM or CC why the troop looks more like an *Adult* Scout troop than a *Boy* Scout troop. In my experience, the best situation is that this is a response to some tragedy in the past. A middle-ground situation is the parents are from a "tiger" culture that expects more adult association than the usual scouting model. Worst case, SM believes in authoritarian control and no amount of literature an training will change his mind. Depending on why they've gone off book may inform your next move.

1. Maintain a firm hand with whatever authority you have.2. Build a strong friendship in spite of stark disagreements. To that end, I would discourage E91 from trying to dig dish from the UC. I can't think of any scenario where knowing that history does any good. I can see no see any scenario where a UC would have all the facts to give an unbiased opinion. Finally, I can see no scenario where a UC who would know such detailed information would be inclined to divulge it to a third party. I certainly would not want any unit of mine to have such an individual as UC.

It seems to me that the responsibilities that can be applied to advancement come at a time when we expect a boy to think more widely than the eight boys with whom they've been hiking and camping over the past year or two. That's true of the PL. He's not to just qualify to take his patrol hiking and camping, he's to coordinate activities with the other patrols. That is definitely not the expectation of the APL (although we all expect him to grow into that outward-looking attitude). Same for the troop QM ... especially the one with highly functioning patrols and their respective QMs. He has to navigate the waters of multiple patrols. Maybe the Wolves have the best camp box, but the Bears have urgently need such gear. No longer is this a matter of checking out equipment from some troop storehouse, but enabling "haves" to help "have nots" with an appropriate level of accountability. And so it goes with the other responsibilities.

seen that behavior before. grubbing for sympathy. My reply: "do me a favor and find is your replacement."

I'm no expert in conflict management, but when I was in a similar position to yours I found the following (shared equally to folks favoring or opposing me) to set the tone nicely: "I'm not about to be bothered by the burrs up anyone's butt ... Especially yours." Not sure how that would come off to scouters in your neck of the woods. But the attitude carried me along pretty well.

We currently have a glut of boys working on Star or Life, so service projects are a viable option. However, lining them up is not always easy. I needed a scout to run point for our district flag placement that our troop and crew holds. My usual venturers who run this weren't available. The SM said he had just the boy (introverted, does web stuff, ideal for a behind-the-scenes support project like this), so I asked around for him at the next meeting. He wasn't there, time was running short, so I fell back to one of the older boys who already had a POR, didn't care much about advancement, but did want to get more involved with the crew. The next week I apologized to the SM for passing over his guy. He replied "the first step in being responsible is showing up at meetings to get your assignment!" If the kid was present even that next week, I would have divide up some duties for him to still make a significant contribution to the event (and make a new friend by working with my venturer in the process). But, it didn't happen.

I would +10 @@SSScout's reply if I could. I'll restate the above because you may have missed the intended sarcasm: They have abandoned the notion of "Boy Led" for "Boy Self-Served". The flawed thinking goes like this: "If Mr. Cross-over can hold a paintbrush, he's more than welcome on my service project. But, if he's a big unknown on my 20 mile weekend through rocks and bogs, I'm under no obligation to line up an awesome overnight for him, his buddies and their dads at a nice field near my insertion/extraction point." (@@Tatung42, note that it's not just CO's with Troops and Crews). Now, this attitude may have been the result of times that they've planned activities and 1st years never joined them, or when they did most were in tears afterword. Regardless, in a small troop the dynamic has to adjust with every boy who joins. The only question is how much how fast? As far as advancement goes: one overnight (and a few other skills demonstrated/gained) will get your scout to Tenderfoot. The question is, how to make this fun for his buddy as well? All of these Eagle projects? Maybe it's time for your son to ask one or two of those boys (especially the ones in your son's patrol) if they wouldn't mind sparing an evening to help teach them all the ways to light fires, or set up tents in a back yard. Or Saturday morning take them on a hike around town where they can practice carrying full packs and working with a map and compass. Get the SM to approve the plan, and BOOM, it's a scouting event.

I'm a crew advisor in a similar configuration, and I pretty much discourage older boys as well. By that, I mean that they are responsible for filling out their own paperwork to even join, they are encouraged to find me someon who hasn't been in scouting before (or maybe left scouting) to join with them, and they do all of the heavy lifting for any program they want to implement. That leaves me with quirky scouts who just want a little extra (I have found quite a few boys with ample time for 6 meetings and 2 outings per month), and leaves the troop with boys who want to focus on the boys. @@Tatung42, before we get any further in this discussion, however, let's hear some real stats, what are the: # of boys in your troop, # of boys age 14+ # of those actually registered with the crew # in Order of The Arrow # of young (age under 18) male venturers in the crew # of young male venturers total in the crew. Maybe that will help us get a better handle on what you're dealing with.

I once tried to pitch backpacking in Dolly Sods as "just like Skyrim, only you move your character with your feet instead of your thumbs." At the end of a day of rocks and bogs, the most-avid video-gamer in the crew (for her, this was her first back-country hike) gave me a most evil stare.

If only BP spoke Yiddish ... Mensch Scouts!

Kid calls camp director: "Sir, as opposed to your published program, we'd like the entire week at outpost camp and will bring our own MBs, food and shelter to the camp who makes us the best offer. What will yours be?" Follow-up: "Your offer was accepted, can you draw up a contract for me to give to whomever you need in our unit for sign-off? In what amount should I tell our treasurer to draft the check for the deposit?" I just saw a scout (also staff's camp) going over with the CC the list of MB's the boys need to schedule. Man-hours could have been cut in half, just loan the boy the labtop!

To the broader issue: The goal should be 1st class scout. The option should be continue on in rank advancement. If the boy says, "Hey, I can do better!" Then he could: Work on that National Outdoor Award. (I do not think they and Eagle should be one in the same.) Set sights on Hornaday. Go for STEM NOVA. Get a job to support his family, or save up for an HA triple crown. Put more time in school to make for poor grads up until now. Found a ship, crew, or lab. Become a musical protege'. Earn the next boy scout rank, then the next, and the next, then some palms. Every weekend play chess at the VA or some other bastion of loneliness. Do any combination of good in the world. The 5% stat (approximately, up from the traditional 2%) has me worried. Whereas before a troop had 40 boys just hanging around for each 1 keyed up to earn that medal, it now has only 20. That means it's very likely we've built us a program for boys who like awards rather than sought to award boys who build our program.

One fine point (but may exemplify an overarching problem that at times certain subtractions are ignored): The swimming requirements stipulate "in a strong manner". There should be no signing off, nor coloring buddy tags, if the attempt could best be described as feeble. Any guardian of an aquatics area knows that's a set-up for catastrophe and will be unphased by any amount of adult-blown smoke.

Well, not being pre-packaged, there is a risk of profit loss due to increased waste. Or, is it increased waist due to profit loss?

OU got my daughter. Got her back for a year, and now she'll work in TX. Any chance your scout will want to roll specialty steel in PA three years from now? Heck, who are we kidding? Some VA tech grad will have built a robot to do his job by then.

KDD, your view of the margin in cookies is exaggerated. GS trips are rarely as costly as big-ticket scouting. Far fewer girls participate in GS/USA jamborees. Look, if you think cookies are that great, your patrols could bake and distribute them at will.

Treat it as only one bridge burnt! Your younger son may approach the game completely different ... irrespective of any salt in old wounds. The troop's new participation policies may suit him perfectly.

Congratulations! FYI, he wouldn't have to redo requirements for the ranks he's already earned ... only do any additional new requirements for the rank he's working on, which for Eagle there weren't any. But, if it scared him straight, nice work mom. Sounds like if he keeps it up, he'll have one Palm to add three months after his conference. But the really huge deal is that he's taking what he learned in NYLT to heart and earning the trust of his peers and his SM.

@@meyerc13, Nice speech. Wasted breath. The SM and CC are rules-oriented ... as long as they are making the rules. UC's are never perceived as welcome guests in this kind of conversation. The only things that might prevail upon them to change are: 1. Other SMs in the district telling them openly at a round-table that they are going off the rails (using language that @@Krampus suggests) and maybe no small number of them offering to accept the boy's transfer application, find him a counselor to wrap up that last MB, conference with him, and arrange his BoR. 2. The lad's patrol rallying around him to plan 10 overnights in this month tailored around his schedule and interests and friends. (Using brute force scout spirit that @@Beavah and I suggest.) Then he can come back to the SM with an "With all due respect, I now believe a conference and review is in order." The DAC and CAC are basically implementing #1 on behalf of the scouters in the district and council, respectively. However, this SM and CC are unlikely to see it that way. They want a fiefdom, and any naysayers are just throwing missiles over the walls.

Don't see how it's silly. If some 17-year-olds have a good 3-day hike plan and need some competent adults for the sake of legitimacy, I always look at skills over age. (That said if the plan is really good ... knowing how some of my boys can cook ... I might all-but-beg to be invited along. )

The one lifeguard I provided (thanks to the Laurel Highland Council's VOA network) and I were welcomed (and fed quite nicely ) at a camporee that one of my venturers organized for her Gold award. This is a vicious cycle, many girls who leave the program, when interviewed, claimed they did so due to a lack of outdoor activities. This leaves the girls who remain to dictate the program, unless the moms set boundaries that guide them outdoors. Sometimes the outdoors-women take the reigns and form challenging programs. Other times, they hit an upper limit to how far their troop will go (a "glass canopy" if you will). That does not mean the question goes unasked. From a 2012 study (http://www.girlscouts.org/content/dam/girlscouts-gsusa/forms-and-documents/about-girl-scouts/research/GSRI_More_than_Smores-Outdoor_Experiences.pdf): Outdoors Once a Month in Girl Scouts: A Key to Leadership Development Monthly involvement in the outdoors contributes to girls’ lead-ership development. Experiences such as playing and walking outdoors and taking outdoor field trips do not demand much specialized equipment or training, but they may provide girls with a very low-stakes, socially supportive context in which to improve their health, practice cooperation and teamwork, and try things they thought they couldn’t do. Environmental service also seems to provide girls with a sense of purpose and to socialize them into an environmentalist mindset—one that promotes connection with, concern for, and conservation of the environment. However, only about 40 percent of Girl Scouts participate in monthly outdoor activities through Girl Scouts. What about the other 60 percent? Why are the majority of Girl Scouts not getting outdoors regularly in Girl Scouts? So, I don't think what you are seeing is not merely a reaction to a bunch of bloggers. Comprehensive studies of girls in the program are driving organizers to ask "why not more?" A nation-wide Girl Scout Voices survey this year (nearing conclusion this month) might offer some insights as to if and how things are moving on that front.

The litigious path is very hard emotionally. Being right does not always equate to feeling right. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail. Frankly if I were your son, I'd line up ten nights of camping with my buddies and their girlfriends and sisters ... Starting on my 18th birthday!

Of the 30k members lost, one wonders how many want to be scouts?(Yes, that numerical reality is pitted against the estimated losses if the state's DA of NY shut down every scout camp for equal employment violations.)