qwazse

Rats! That was supposed to be +1. Love these.

Hmmm, we could have each PL compute a score: sum of camping nights + # of boys added + # aged out + flag + cheer + song + # first class scouts + # scouts with PORs ... Let's call it the Patrol-Oriented Quality Evaluation Manual Assessment Number (POQEMAN) for short. Near the end of the tenure PL's would put their POQEMAN on paper, stick it in a plastic ball. And toss it between his mates what the scribe comes around. It's the scribes job to intercept it. He's gotta catch 'em all. Troop score is the number of patrols + average POQEMAN.

@@Stosh, add to that batter-dipped deep-fried Mrs. Fields cookies (wrapping removed before dipping). Having the trailer at the end of the trail finally made up for its hassles with a stock of oil and batter redeems the commissary issued "dessert." Never see boys run so fast as when they have a bright idea and realize they have the resources to act on it.

In statistics we have a method called survival (a.k.a. Life table) analysis. It's a way of quantifying the proportion of subjects who survive up to a given point. It could be applied to ages in the program, years before dropping, or rank advancement. It's a robust way to look at dats like this. The problem is that a minority of folks would understand it.

Well, now you are moving squarely into the realm of scouting history ... If only this site had a forum for it. Oh wait, it does! http://scouter.com/index.php/forum/37-scouting-history/ Here folks post references to some really informative material. BSA does have some market and organizational research. You can see some of their published material here http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSheets.aspx. My general observations (i.e.,from the cheap seats of dealing with youth programs in my community): we have experienced some "drift" over the years, but it's nowhere near the shifts of other youth programs that were founded at the same time (e.g., GS/USA, Campfire, etc ...). I think we all agree that parents who seek us out are looking for that kind of stability. Most of us here, however, are concerned even slight drifts from our core could amount to a betrayal of public trust.

Here's a "grand scheme of things" way to look at this. Imagine the SPL continuing to fail to be proactive ... It's likely there are one or more boys who don't like it. One are more of these are thinking right now, "I could that SO much better." And he'd be right. But, the harsh reality is it may not be put in a position of responsibility to do anything about it next election cycle. Wouldn't it be nice if out there somewhere there was an ASM who knew what it was like to have to lead from behind, and was graciously modeling that behavior? Well, it sounds like in this troop there's at least one ASM who's getting that specific on-the-job training. There's nothing wrong with setting some benchmarks for an SPL, ASPL, or instructor. Then following up to see how he did them! And as these boys manage to succeed, be sure to be full of praise, especially in front of your buddy, Gunship. E.g., "Did you see that? Joey came to a meeting with a half-baked agenda. That's half more than he did last month!" Big boats turn slowly ... but not at all if the rudder isn't set.

The numbers are very much down from BSA's peak in the seventies. However, a very big youth movement cut in half still remains a very big youth movement. Lots of Eagles wind up in cubicles ... Hopefully however that scouting past gives them a vision of what all can be done to make that a more pleasant place!

Have you looked into Heritage Reservation in PA? http://www.lhc-bsa.org/camping They teach whitewater through their trek Program on the Youghogeny at Ohiopyle. Camp Mountaineer WV http://www.macbsa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=335&Itemid=9 Offers whitewater adventure (I think that includes the MB), I believe in the Cheat River. Both locations are "go to" locations when anyone mentions whitewater in these parts. These camps are probably the leading locations.

I've never seen the importance of keep up to date with NESA. Does bothering with these kinds of shenanigans have any value?

You highlight something we experience all over the country. We have an increasing number of non-joiners. Some dads I know actually find a club to belong to after they see how it helped their son's experience.

Durn thumbs! That was supposed to be a +1 to Stosh. @@Eagledad, seeing as that ship has already sailed and we're awash in mamma bears (and mamma dads, not sure which is worse), and hiking and camping independently with your mates is no longer BSA's vision of the pinnacle scouting experience, I'm not sure we're making things worse bringing in girls and their dads. If their moms weren't camping with them before, they sure won't be inclined to join us backpacking (even if my digger is unisex).

I think it's the other way around. The course director intended for the beads to be something pre-Eagle, so he decided tell the boys that they won't be available once they get their bird. Perhaps, he didn't want to one-up rank advancement. Who knows? Anyway Zuzyson has it in his head the one has to wrapped up before the other. When he finally sits and chats with the SM, I'm sure there will be some head-scratching, but it will all be approved. Now, important stuff: that girl he's interested in ... is she rich? ... can she cook?

Oh, if you got somebody who likes filling in the boxes (be it a youth or adult) let them have at it! They might generate some useful feedback!

FWIW - The Muslim parents I know intentionally seek out Christian or Jewish units over other secular CO's. Consider it a brand they trust. They can actually become insulted when you make too much of an effort to "sanitize" grace on account of them. I guess, they'd rather you spend the energy finding out what they believe than presuming that they'd take offense. And of course, your mileage may vary!

It doesn't say that the woman doing the confrontation was the SM. The way I suspect it went down is that an SM/ASM noticed, asked a female committee member to confront the nursing mom. I also would like to think the confrontation was more of the "Would you mind?" type. I'm not sure the church has any particular opinion on this. Frankly, nursing moms aren't wasting $ on formula, increasing the odds that savings make it into the collection plate. Although, I suspect the CoR would have been called by the SE about it. This is a culture clash. Not everybody is up to speed with revised laws. And although a nursing mom cannot be held for indecent exposure, the law can't stop someone from asking a woman politely to change her behavior to conform to local culture. Think about it using a neutral example. Parents can't legally be prevented from helicoptering our scouts, but we can and do often insist that they step away from the patrol. That said, it is really lame putting this on the boys. Either say, "That's making the other adults really uncomfortable." Or stay out of it.

@@Eagledad, you are making the case against GS/USA and BSA ever merging. That's not the same as a case against admitting motivated elementary and middle school girls into BSA. (Not a scenario I relish, but I'm told by our friends across the waters it's not as scary as it sounds.) The "nightmare scenario" as you describe it would have to do with scads of outdoor-phobic helicopter moms running the show. How would it be different that? We wouldn't to get droves of girls flocking to BSA. Most will still prefer GS/USA. Those girls who come will bring their dads, who may be outstanding leaders but we've missed them for having had to devote time to their daughters (maybe not in GS/USA, but in other extracurricular activities). The moms who will come will do so because they've bought into our culture. Not the other way around. The current training regimen sets the tone. For good or ill, that will continue to be the case. The advancement method sets the program. Thus I am not as worried about the consequences of going co-ed as the fact that there may be some of the nation's finest scouts out their not getting the program they deserve. If GS/USA or Campfire or BPSA step into that gap, fine. If not, that third point of the scout law is gonna nag the lot of us until we do something about it.

@@meyerc13, you are not alone. For the reasons you mention, I consider GS/USA's Gold award one of the most challenging out there for young people to achieve. Unlike Eagle, the blueprint for advancement is just not that detailed. As far as I can tell GS/USA does not demand that moms run a similar program. Some moms do take on multiple ages and no limit of girls, insist that their girls pursue outdoor activities, and push them to take leadership, earn awards, and effect change for the good in their community. But, they are generally not required to do any of that. Most do some, but few do all every month of the year. And, most girls (and their parents) are quite content with that. I wish I could get paid for every time a girl complains about her troop but will never join a crew, or if she does, once in the crew does nothing to plan an activity or do anything that would take her outside of her comfort zone. I've come to the conclusion that GS/USA has regressed to the mean expectation of their constituents. The young women who make great venturers are the ones who are fully engaged in their troop and then put extra time into their crew.

I'm not an MBC, but in some ways being a crew advisor is worse because the amount that I'm really good at is a small fraction of what my venturers want to do. In that case, I surround myself with good people, keep numbers of who I think are the best outfitters, most reliable trainers, etc... I do my part by trying to keep my lifeguard certifications up to date. So, pick one or two of the badges you are most interested in and focus on those. A fun counselor can give a boy some idea of what he knows, but also refer him to people or groups who will really make for an enjoyable experience.

Okay, here is where I'm parting ways. This sentiment is a scouter's burden, and we should encourage every boy with that heartfelt desire when we see them faltering. Same holds for coaches, band directors, youth leaders, etc ... But, it's not a mom's place. A boy needs his parents to only focus on the REALLY important stuff. Things like wanting to quit school., improper relationships with the opposite sex, despising religion, debauchery, violence, self-harm. If your child has steered clear of those, you are really blessed and should be extremely pleased. Your very competent son needs to know that you care about him enough to not care about awards and recognition until he says it's time to care about it. Just let his SM or a scouter he respects know that he could use a little encouragement. I would not know what to think about having earned Eagle if for a moment I thought that I would cause Momma an ounce of anguish bu not making it.

Yep, you just lost me there. Look, I don't need my troop to brag about how much service they've done. I don't need my Eagles to be burdened with anything except understanding the concept of man-hours in a relatively straightforward task. (Having tallied their project, they may be better aware of or the "cost" of other public works. Hopefully that knowledge will make them better citizens.) I've got no problem incentivizing the process of logging hours so national can have bragging rights. Talk up the Good Turn for America all you want. But the minute it turns into some mandatory exercise for some accountability or bragging rights is the minute bogus data starts to flood the system. It's a lousy one-page form people! Eyeball your numbers. Circle the rating you think fits your troop in each category. Run it by your youth leaders to see if it's about right. Boom. Done.

@@zuzy, it sounds like you have two problems: 1. A burnt out young man. 2. An SM (and troop) who are stuck in a rut. For the first one, support your son by assuring him that this (along with NYLT beads, etc ...) is entirely his award to earn or shelve. In the broader scheme of things, he needs to decide his priorities and work on those. That might mean putting sports aside for a season so he can be part of a troop he enjoys. Or it might mean putting sports first, then these scouting awards will come slower, or not at all, and that's okay. It's his program to operate how he sees fit. It is really hard for many mid-teens to fit in with their peer groups. It often takes much more time than boys realize. I suspect that the boys in the troop have a feeling that for your son, it's "just bushiness" ... that he's only gonna put in the time he needs for advancement and nothing more. Few boys will invest their time in someone like that. We can discuss that further if this really seems to be part of the problem. For the second one. Your husband rightly stepped away from excessive involvement as a UC. That position should have been assigned to someone else in the district the minute his son joined that troop. That way he could serve as a committee member in good faith. However, he can still give a call to the SM, let him know that the boy is feeling like throwing in the towel, you all don't quite know what to do, and ask him if he or the troop's SPL could give the boy a word of encouragement. Don't ask for signatures. This isn't about that. It's about the boy realizing there are caring adults around, and he may be one of them in not too many years.

Those pencil and paper badges are not nearly as complicated as they seem ... especially for an avid reader. There is plenty of time between camping weekends to work on them.As far as the outdoor activities themselves ... they give a boy a microcosm to practically work out what it means to be a good citizen.

Welcome! Hope you all enjoy this new regime. We're here to help with wisdom and experience that may apply about half the time! And don't worry, @@Zaphod, As long as your son knows where his towel is, he'll do just fine.

http://www.resourcefinder4u.com/basic_knots/snell_knot_a.php Or something close to that. When I first tried it, I thought, "I'm wasting a box of hooks today." But it held on my ultralight rod for quite a few fishing days, snags and all.

Honestly, however, the profusion of youth clubs and taxpayer-funded outdoor-ish activities (e.g. our school installed a climbing wall) the flawed thinking of Pack camping as a recruiting tool. Take the school climbing wall. When that came in, I had more youth already safety trained so that we could hire a guide and hit some rocks first thing ... knocking out a hearty climb in one morning. But most of those youth looked at the opportunity that our crew provided and thought, "Meh, been their done that. How much different than school can it be?" My pointing out that with us, you learn your figure eights and rope yourself in, you hug real granite, road trips are cool, we cook better than the cafeteria (don't say that too loud, SM's wife is a lunch lady) ... does not add enough value to the event to someone who can arrange for all of those sensations without lugging biner and rope. Well, cub family campouts are not much different. Families team up to knock out some weekends camping. That itch gets scratched. Parents continue make plans to bring you and your buddies to the family cabin. Why bother doing the same thing in a troop?