fred8033

Me too. Shooting sports rules have always been seriously followed. This incident sounds like negligence. The question is how egregious. We are missing lots on this story. ... Examples ... how many scouts were present? Three adults sounds like minimum to open a shooting range for a troop shoot at the camp. If the troop brought 20 to 30 scouts and the range had 8 to 10 shooting spots, then having 18 guns could be reasonable. Spares. Not sure which are shooting well or which sights were well aligned. privately owned? could be shooting instructor let

Well said earlier. This statement is extremely poignant. Some of scouting's worst moments and when we try to force the learning.

This is what I believe 100%. Absolutely.

I've heard about that research, but not seen it. I question reaching the conclusion from the research. We may be losing opportunity with some families that become committed to other programs, but I think we lose far more from burn-out and from a too-early meaningless program. I see lots of families drop out of baseball, soccer and other activities after the first few years. I'd argue that when a child enters 3rd grade, those parents are looking for something new, fresh and the next bigger step. IMHO, that should be scouting with knives, fire, outdoors and shooting sports.

That's my biggest fear. It starts to break the scout's commitment to scouting. The scout showed up. The scout did as instructed. The scout fulfilled their end. Now they don't get what was promised. It breaks the scout's commitment and kills their excitement. The specific badge just does not matter that much. The path to get the badge does though. IMHO, it's got to be pretty extreme for troops to say no. A scout or family knowing they did something wrong. A paperwork error the scout agrees with. This though is a MBC doing as planned and the scout fulfilling that.

IMHO ... I think this is the exact problem killing scouting. Kudos to @5thGenTexan. IMHO, Cubs starting so young is burning out the adults and burning out families. IMHO, the program should start in 3rd grade. 2nd grade is a gray area. K & 1st are just wrong and damages the program and burns out the adults. Scouting should start when the scouts can socialize and be responsible. Until then, let families have their time together. Let them try out soccer and baseball and the other activities. THEN, when they are ready, let them come to scouts. I think the biggest scouti

From what I read so far ... the scout is not in question. The SM/CC is questioning the camp program. And I'm assuming ... you are not overly inserting yourself and that the SM/CC is not also correcting your being involved too much. #1 Using this understanding, I assert ... GTA 7.0.4.7 is about clearly failed situations. GTA 7.0.4.7 is not about differences of opinion where people don't think the camp staff are doing it right. ... Of course, I absolutely prefer scouts and camp staff work to draw while sitting in the dark and watching the sky. There is a special experience g

Yeah. Sadly, I see this as a key issue. Sometimes people volunteer or step-up because they want to be there for their kids ... BUT it's their kids that are the issue ... and their (parent) behavior becomes then part of the issue too. Scouting is really a simple program. Scouting is about activities and learning to socialize. Bad behavior is not for scouting. ASMs/SM need to be there to stop it. When incidients happen, explicitly state what was wrong and what is expected. If the situation involved a group, do it together so they all know. If you need to call out a single pe

Ahhh... Thank you. This was a new way of asking a previous question. Now I'm connecting it with a previous answer. THANK YOU !!!!

BSA should already be paying cash for new expenses. I thought up-front paying of new expenses was common for companies in bankruptcy proceedings. My question had to do with claims failed between the claim deadline and BSA emerging bankruptcy. Is it possible those victims will have less recourse for their damages? I'm hoping the newly established trust allow new victims to submit claims on equal footing with the submitted 80,000+ submitted claims. Otherwise, it feels like there is a gap that removes victim recourse.

Cub scouting is expensive comparatively. Easy $100 for a uniform and book. Add activities that each are priced individually. etc, etc, etc. Floor hockey in the gym is $30 or $40 for several months. Less work too. That itself causes an issue. Our unit did communicate that too (and I was part of it). It's not really a good choice either. Uniforming differences causes judgmental attitudes from all sides to other sides and affects the commitment (from all sides). Scout shop subverts the pack message. Asking parents to make the choice infers they don't have money

Wow. ... That's a massive hit. Sounds like archery could still happen? Slingshot? Really massive.

Nice. I come from a different school of thought. I'd prefer to not have that class and to not help the scout too much. Don't be an obstacle, but let's not create an overly structured scout experience. Rather, filling out blue cards is a great chance to have conversations with the scout and to give him things to look at and work on. It's a chance for the scout to improve and solve things. ... Another way to work it. If the scout brings you a blue card that is not cleanly filled at the start, give them a new blue card and walk them thru filling it out neatly.

I sympathize. I also have contempt for the legal process being used in this bankruptcy. Even before the victim infomercials, this has been a boon-doggle and a money grab. There is no way this bankruptcy will make victims whole. The awareness was raised years / decades ago. Nothing is gained except re-opening old wounds yet again for several more years. I'd rather see BSA go thru bankruptcy on their own. BUT, at this point, the money has been spent on the settlement with a gamble of huge payouts by insurance companies and co-defendants. ... BSA on it's own has little to give def

Until something like the 1992 congressional debate (forgot about that) was passed as law, BSA ... even if liquidated and had no employees or records ... could be spun back up. We think of the Congressional Charter as honorific ... and it mostly is ... but it adds a nebulous legal state that can be used to re-hydrate a failed BSA. That is my point. Congress doesn't have to give another company a congressional charter. BSA has perpetual existence until the charter is withdrawn by congress passing another law. A patriotic president could effectively spin up BSA without a law

If I played the game, what would happen if BSA went chapter 7 ... My big fear is that victims of the current settlement would get less and it would take much longer. Chapter 7 means no victim settlement and no funds anytime soon. Chapter 7 means hundreds of millions were spent trying to get a settlement, without success. A new set of lawsuits would start against the insurance companies. BSA chapter 11 bankruptcy pulls everyone together into a settlement. Without that, I could easily see every insurance company going on their own. The chapter 11 bankruptc

I don't think you can "declare" an act of congress ended. Laws can be found unconstitutional, but courts can't end laws. Congress would need to a pass a new bill ending the charter. ... And no President would want to have their name on the bill ending BSA. And few congressmen or senators would vote to end BSA. Until then, the current law states perpetual existence. Very much like laws. Laws have perpetual existence. Similar, BSA has perpetual existence. Even if BSA sold all assets, the company "BSA" has the right to continue. Time would wait for the next patriotic Preside

$1000 is for the youth scout who is very active. ... Add another $1000 for the very active parent ... or more as that active parent often introduces extra costs like neat gear, special extra foods, etc, etc. When I had four active kids in scouting where we did everything and sometimes in two or three different units, I'd bet we spent $5000 to $7000 a year. At least the cost of a major family vacation.

Thank you. I really appreciate the detail.

Ahhh ... that makes sense. Essentially, there is a transition time. To pay the settlement, an amount will be coming from new membership and scout shop sales. Such as parents paying dues for their seven-year-old to be a Tiger scout and then buying him a uniform and books. Or money from scouts attending national events and high adventure camps. ... The days of BSA having cash savings are in the past. The days of big donors won't exist while BSA is fundraising for a settlement. Money will be coming from the current and new kids and their parents.

"Standard" policies can be extended by special permission. In the past, units doing shooting sports training have worked with the camp, council and shooting sports credentialed leaders to bring unique or varied guns to camp. There were often limits such as the gun would not be shot; ammunition that fit the gun would not be brought; the gun would be secured when not being demonstrated; and, that the camp ranger and others would do a special check-in for the unit.

Agreed that future abuse after bankruptcy emergence is new liability. ... but is there some connection between the new liability / new financial awards and the settlement trust being created? Are future victims somehow pulled into this pending settlement? I just don't understand the details of @yknot saying "BSA is also on the hook to make some kind of continuing future contributions to the settlement"

"Looking backward, no" ... Yep. that's my understanding. "Forward, yes" ... I don't understand. Are you saying the post-bankruptcy BSA would pay into the bankruptcy trust for abuse that happened after the bankruptcy? ... I don't understand how that would work. Mixing trust dollars targeting past abuse with some type of money / protection for abuse yet to happen?

I've been following this from since it started. I'm amazed how much I still hear that I did not know and still can't understand. This is a bankruptcy. Old company legally stops existing and a legally new company exits bankruptcy. QUESTION - Would be the post-bankruptcy (successful bankruptcy) BSA be able to have any future liability ? I thought that violated the fundamentals of how bankruptcy works.

$100 plus monthly is a stopper. My ideal is the generic monthly camp out should (at that time) have been $20 or less. Now, $30 or less would be reasonable. Bigger adventures a few times a year are great, but few families can afford. Our "ideal" ... when I was in troop planning was that every patrol have every month an option for one camp out and one activity. Sometimes if at the troop level, then patrols often had the option of more than one camp out and more than one activity; such as patrol camp out and a troop camp out. Or a patrol game night and a troop swim night. or ... I