fred8033

Lots of small, friendly conversations over coffee with the SM and CC. ... AND ... if they don't sign-on, don't subvert their direction. Perhaps you can help like in the above ideas such as bringing your sewing machine. Otherwise, the most important point in my view is slowly getting everyone on the same page.

Glad to read this. I'm often frustrated with portrayals of conservative groups as it's not an accurate image of what I've seen or what exists. Sorry for saying this but those portrayals are coming from politically acceptable hate mongering and bigotry; politically acceptable hypocrisy. Glad your scout is having a good experience. Such stories are exciting to hear and offer a glimpse of a constructive future. I really hope that someday the only acceptable group to hate are the Green Bay Packers.

ASPL functions as SPL when SPL is absent. https://troopleader.scouting.org/assistant-senior-patrol-leader/ FYI ... This also respects the scout's choices. The scouts elected the SPL. The SPL selects his ASPL(s). The SPL knew the ASPL was to fill in when needed. The Troop Guide was assigned to help new scouts, not to fill in for the SPL. ... So, ASPL respects the scouts' choices. IMHO, perhaps have the Troop Guide support and mentor the ASPL. That is the job of a troop guide.

#1 Size & deep pockets. #2 Long-standing, history of being insured at the national level. From what I've seen, church-based youth camps DO have the same issues. I'd be surprised if hard, difficult cases like the BSA liability case get resurrected for an individual camp that might have 5 or 10 cases from 30 or 40 years ago; especially as most youth camps barely make money and the affiliated churches are not cash rich either. Simply put, lawyers need big cash incentives to get involved.

I've seen this before with Knights of Columbus and their squires program. KofC Squires or Elks Antlers are too niche without broad visibility. Heck, I know zero adults who are Elks. I know far more that are active in KofC, but I've never heard of a youth using Squires. IMHO, Antlers and Squires are not a BSA replacement. Also, Elks (like many fraternal organizations) has membership issues of their own. PLUS ... if Elks' Antlers program was successful, it would be facing much of the same liability issues that BSA has had. IMHO, the issue is insuring a massive scale youth program.

Probably smaller organizations that start up and shut down. That purchase insurance on their own. Maybe it would be good that a troop would startup and dissolve over 10 or 20 years. BSA has long been a lightning rod for all the society ills for the last 100+ years. It bankrupted and nearly killed BSA. Maybe BSA should oversee camps that outside organizations use; if they come with their own insurance, etc. Or, have the camps as individual on-going non-profit organizations that run themselves. Or, petition government to own special state and national parks that specialize in hosting youth groups. I fear that structurally BSA may not be compatible with the current legal system. I think BSA needs to re-think how it exists structurally.

IMHO ... It's not at all that national is clueless or making decisions in a vacuum. This is 100% about legal liability for a great youth program run loosely by outside volunteers and BSA being held liable for societal ills. This is why "I think" BSA should NOT be a membership organization. It should be a certifying body. BSA should certify that the outside youth in an outside organization (Troop ###) completed rank requirements. They should not be certifying safety or membership or liable for each and every camp out. BSA will never wield enough control to be able to legally protect themselves and their members.

I'm glad I'm transitioned now. At one point, we had four actively registered scouts in my family and two registered adults. That would have been $440 in national fees. Probably another $320 in council fees at least. $760 for just registration and before Boy's Life magazine, camping, uniforms, activities, miscellaneous AND fundraising to keep the unit viable. Wow! In hind sight, I am sure there were many years that scouting cost was at least $5000 a year and some that must have been near twice that. Jamboree. High adventures. Four summer camps. ... and the miscellaneous cost for all those sleeping bags, tents and garage full of gear. The real issue is moving these costs up front. It makes it a decision factor. I'm sure baseball and other activities would have been similar in cost for four active kids. BUT, the cost is now very visible. Perhaps BSA should move more and more toward a certification model. Here is the intellectual property and the requirements. Send proof that you completed the requirements. Then, BSA publishes the certificate confirming your achievement. No taking responsibility for adult leaders. Heck, having all MBCs as pre-registered BSA members defeats the concept of a MBC.

I'm sure your son faced enough judgements over those two years between suspension and the Eagle application. If after the suspension, the troop kept the scout registered, then the suspension should not be used against him. Key point is keeping the scout registered and participating is tacit agreement that the scout could earn Eagle if he stays active and working the requirements. It's too late at the EBOR to use the suspension against the scout. ... It might be very different if the incident was a month before the EBOR.

Ongoing i Ongoing improvement is good. Practice is good. Finding a reason to perfect and grow skills is good. The problem is referring to it as a test. In the SMC, it's not. It's part of the conversation and not a pass or fail condition.

I wish I could provide more detail. Four months seems long, but I'm not sure. QUESTION - Did you appeal to national via your council? Or did you directly appeal to national? I'm curious about procedures. I ask as I'm wondering if and when national received the appeal. Was there a middle man? Did it really get there?

Wow !!! I wanted to comment that books and uniforms are profit centers that are not subsidized by national fees. So, I was curious. What is the price of a new handbooks from scout shop? $23.99 for Wolf, Bear, Webelos, etc. All ring bound. No hard bound. $24.99 for troop handbooks. Our pack used to buy cubs their books. We stopped when they were around $12 or $15. Most cubs went without. At $24.99 and the online scoutbook, I'd be tempted to go without for the troop scout level paper copy too. I'd be tempted to create a nice thin, small troop level pamphlet where scouts could keep their advancement signatures. What is really disgusting to me is the $20 for the online scout handbook. Online versions of this stuff should be free! In fact, let a well structured group of volunteers manage all the scout literature. If it works for Linux, it can definitely work for scout literature. Then, partner with Kinkos or FedEx to print copies for individuals that really want paper.

Saw this in our council too. Every non-profit is fundraising so much and scouting is not the darling child anymore. Maybe 20 years from now, scouting will find it's roots and do better again. Until then, council fees are in vogue. IMHO, the real issue is the market does not support big council staffs anymore. Like camera film development and fax machine sales, the market has shifted. Time for the councils to re-think their business models. National too. The real question is does the individual scout get value from the $75 national and $100+ council fees which their own units are staffed by volunteers and the camp fees are separate. For example, maybe scouting could partner with other organizations on the annual background checks, incident reporting and youth protection. I've had multiple years where I had three or four or five background checks run. I always think about the wasted cost. I'm sure there are many, many ways to restructure the administration.

I agree. Also, it would help address borderline units where the unit has a low number of boys or a low number of girls. Critical mass of numbers is so so important in scouting to make it a fun program.

Minimizing council administrative cost per scout is the biggest argument for merging councils. If scout exec is $46 per scout, then double or triple that for all the council staff combined. So, it would be $100 or more per scout for council administrative staff. Especially recognizing that camp staffing should be from a different bucket. Scout shop is a different bucket.

We need to transition to a troop is a troop. Troops can choose to be boys only, girls only OR boys & girls. IMHO, we're in 2023. If YPT is address, this should not be an issue.

I had an interesting experience yesterday. I have a part-time weekend job. One of my co-worker is a 71 years old retired cop. Great guy. ... I somehow referenced scouting and he asked "oh, you were in scouting?" I briefly explained. I asked if he was in scouting. His comment was ... without using "only" ... Yes. He made it to Life Scout, but that was back when scouting was fun. ... I really found that interesting. Unprompted, his first comment was about that scouting was not fun anymore.

Interesting how this becomes a point of discussion. My point is someone who works with scouts, is not registered; and claims they are YPT trained is missing a fundamental key element of YPT; the registration and background check. It's an oxymoron and a sign the system has failed. Perhaps the registration never went thru. Perhaps a snafu. Fundamentally, someone didn't learn or worse "accept" a key point of YPT.

Registration quirks aside, my point is claiming someone is YPT trained but not registered is a contradiction.

I was thinking ... YPT, but NOT registered ... it's an oxymoron. An automatic statement that the YPT points did not sink in. There is no YPT meat without the person being registered. It's like attending law school, but never passing the bar.

You are dead on correct. Only a slight correction. Tigers are also bad for numbers. . Not just about burn-out. The first-look to impress parents/scouts is impressive as the program is so drastically watered down for Lions and Tigers. Many parents after Lions and Tigers are asking why scouts?

Fair enough. I've been out of the scout office too long. I swear they were, but maybe it's only the scout shop employees. I thought registrars were too. Goes to show my knowledge is fading. Perhaps time to ride into the scouting sunset.

Registrars are national employees. A small council might need one or two. A larger council can function smoother with 2 or three. I believe there are a few other similar national roles. Economies of scale is not just national cost. It's variety and quality. Small councils can't offer the number of camps or training or opportunities. Larger councils can benefit by targeting objectives that small councils can't staff correctly. Many, many reasons. It's not 100% about cost. By improving quality, then scout retention and national membership goes up. That helps the bottom line.

Merging councils is long overdue to reduce cost and benefit from economies of scale. If anything, bankruptcy delayed some mergers and bankruptcy could help national by driving more mergers.

Often circumvented by having a member of council shooting sports committee (who has right certifications) oversee the event. Thus, it becomes a council event that only one unit attends.