fred8033

This bankruptcy is one of the few reasons I still read this board. I'm extremely interested in the result though I think it's years before we can look in hindsight. @Eagle1993 ... I have the same thoughts. I want the plan intact to allow scouting to move on. I don't pretend there is any justice for the victims. The settlement offers a token, but not justice. BUT ... non-consensual non-debtor releases is wrong and produces bad justice. IMHO, this case really should be thousands of individual cases against councils, charters and insurance companies. BSA should proceed as best possible via Chapter 11 or 7. Beyond that, it's about individual court cases ... OR the next organization also having to file bankruptcy. I really fear BSA paid lawyers from both sides massive amounts to reach a settlement that won't survive.

Poppycock. The legal system found BSA with it's huge insurance and property assets liable. In the same context, the parents, police, schools and the rest of society covered up too. The issue is legally tying liability to all the other conspirators. This was looting for legal profit.

I agree on avoiding an external organization propping up scouting. The charters were far more about marketing and very, very little about oversight. The issue was the paperwork did not match the intentions or the execution. Thus, massive liability. I'm not sure the leaders of a troop are ever fully protected; no matter who charters. They should be insured and trained. Also, it seems right to me. Responsibility closer to the immediate people.

The sentence is misleading. Inferring a general rule. It is the far, far exception and the outlier that proves the rule. BSA had millions of registered adults. I've read many, many of the IVF files and did not see what is inferred here. The quote was "I have reviewed information that now makes clear to me that decades ago BSA did, in at least some instances, allow individuals to return to Scouting even after credible accusations of sexual abuse." ... It was not the policy or rule. Any organization of millions of people will have "some instances". It is interesting in the same 2019 letter / testimony that he advocated for creating a government run national registry that youth organizations can use to screen volunteers. 50+ years since the 1970s laws started and in 2019 there was still no effective way for youth organizations to screen volunteers.

Undermining american institutions ... Agree BSA files were a good thing. ... Intelligible Volunteer Files were always a good idea and BSA took those files very seriously. Lots of effort was made to keep them complete and accurate. I wish BSA could keep such files still. BUT, it might be in BSA's legal interest to NOT be the gatekeeper of that information as it just creates future legal risk. Someone in the future could use those files as evidence of mistakes and liability. ... Business in the 1980s and 1990s started standardized record purging (emails, files, etc). The idea was to purge before massive litigation was conceived. Companies recognized legal shifts to liability fish. BSA should have seen this case coming. "Prior to about 1970" ... 1970s started the evolution of the laws, not the tracking. BUT, there was not and probably still is not enough of a national wide tracking database. So, I'd argue the BSA needed to track those volunteers probably until 2010 and probably still need to do that now. Government tracking pedophiles? ... I don't think there is such a list except after conviction. Maybe open cases. YPT policies faster ... Yes, BSA should have improved policies faster. BUT, I'd best BSA viewed this more as a society issue and a sick person issue. But yes, BSA should have done better on it's policies and expectations. Self-charter ... Councils should not charter troops. IMHO, troops should be chartered by immediate small groups. Perhaps a collection of parents and volunteers. BSA can be a standards body; a certification body; a resources organization. The issue is chartering infers more oversight than BSA can do. Key point is BSA needs to structurally protect itself from future liability. I truly believe leaders back then viewed it as a society issue and they were doing their honest best. Could they have done more? Absolutely. I am disappointed they did not. Then again, society was drastically different back in the 1970s and even in the 1980s. IMHO, true "awareness" started in the late 1980s and early the 1990s. Effective organizational understanding in the late 1990s.

Dang. I'm having trouble staying out. I'm trying to wean scouting out of my system. Scouting is supposed to be FUN; a bunch of friends getting together with a purpose. Yes, mtgs should prep for activities and camp outs. Making sure scouts have the needed skills. ... BUT ... It's like my wife's book club. They get together. Talk. Laugh. Eat. Choose the next book. Some talk about the book. Laugh. Talk about other things. ... A few of the ladies might read the book, but it's not really the purpose of the group. The group is fellowship and building relationships. Same for scouting. Too many adults think the big, big purpose of scouting is to earn MBs and advancement. It's pushing scouts away from scouting. Advancement is just one part of scouting. The bigger part is helping these young people build friendships, connections and get new experiences. This is what I've seen too. In addition, I've seen an annual plan ... developed by the scouts ... where there is a theme, campout, activity and MB scheduled every month. Then, the scouts "HAVE THE CHOICE" whether to participate on the campout, activity and MB. IMHO, troop meetings are absolutely NOT the venue to have scouts sit for 60 to 90 minutes listening to a MB lecture. ... Instead, a mtg is a gathering, flags/opening, scout-made announcements, activities (skills, games, MB, etc ... that the scouts and/or their patrol chooses). My ideal is a MB councilor is present as a resource to individual scouts who want MB requirement signoffs. Maybe a 5 or 10 minutes (at most) presentation by the MB councilor now and then.

Thank you and I wish everyone the best. I've been involved with scouting for 23+ years and I'm transitioning out for new adventures. Scouting will ALWAYS hold a special place in my heart. My wife says I can't walk into a store without buying scout popcorn, cookies or wreaths. Under the auspices of scouting, I've camped 300+ nights; often on scout properties. Sometimes in national, state or county parks. Sometimes on military bases. Sometimes in thunderstorms, floods, hurricanes and more than one blizzard. I've loved sharing these adventures with my sons and the other scouts. I've loved being a quiet helper in the background. On a hopeful note, I see a good change coming. My scouting years were always overshadowed by controversy. BSA v Dale. Groups misrepresenting BSA to affect political and societal change. Then, the abuse lawsuits and bankruptcies. Though issues still exist, I feel like a big cloud is shifting away from BSA. Perhaps, BSA can get back to teaching youth values thru outdoor adventures and group membership. Perhaps, the next 20+ years can be about getting scouts outside running, hiking and exploring. I wish everyone the best. I may post now and then. I may read now and then. Mostly though ... Back to Gilwell, happy land. I'll work my ticket if I can.

Great answer !!!!!

We want to succeed with most scouts. So, ... outside scout meetings / camping / activities ... expecting the scouts to coordinate too much with parents, off-line planning is not realistic. Schools and other orgs push communication to the parents and expect parents to push the scouts. IMHO, this is part of extended childhood / helicopter parenting / modern teaching. I wish this was 1950s where we'd expect the scout to follow thru and they would. IMHO, scout leaders should expect scout responsibility inside scouting (meetings, camps, activities). Responsible for cooking, participating, setting up tents, cleaning). etc, etc. etc ... .... For outside coordination (home life, scheduling), we need to do like school, etc. Send detailed information. Keep parents informed. Help parents help their scouts. ... BUT, then use the inside / outside scouting as an iron curtain. Parents can watch their scouts at inside scouting activities, but we expect scouts to be responsible for their stuff inside scouting. I just think it's too much of a shock to expect kids to interact with their parents and outside life differently with scouting than with everything else.

It's a nothing-burger is a mostly accurate representation. Youth and parents won't join scouting because of the diversity MB. IMHO, it's a check box for the modern era. It's a slight negative because it's yet another paperwork / school like MB. Scouts can enjoy the conversation just like most people enjoy complaining about school / work or espousing expertise on hot air topics. Scout's join to have fun, be active and get bragging rights. IMHO, this MB does none of that. It strongly overlaps with school and 1000 other pipelines. Generally, the MB is a nothing burger except that some will complain about politics or wasting time. Some will have an interesting conversation; but then again, scouts should have having interesting conversations around every camp fire. IMHO ... for the love of all that is scouting ... Condense these school MBs into fewer MBs !!! More bow and arrow. More camp fire cooking. More hiking. More swimming. etc, etc, etc

Lots of small, friendly conversations over coffee with the SM and CC. ... AND ... if they don't sign-on, don't subvert their direction. Perhaps you can help like in the above ideas such as bringing your sewing machine. Otherwise, the most important point in my view is slowly getting everyone on the same page.

Glad to read this. I'm often frustrated with portrayals of conservative groups as it's not an accurate image of what I've seen or what exists. Sorry for saying this but those portrayals are coming from politically acceptable hate mongering and bigotry; politically acceptable hypocrisy. Glad your scout is having a good experience. Such stories are exciting to hear and offer a glimpse of a constructive future. I really hope that someday the only acceptable group to hate are the Green Bay Packers.

ASPL functions as SPL when SPL is absent. https://troopleader.scouting.org/assistant-senior-patrol-leader/ FYI ... This also respects the scout's choices. The scouts elected the SPL. The SPL selects his ASPL(s). The SPL knew the ASPL was to fill in when needed. The Troop Guide was assigned to help new scouts, not to fill in for the SPL. ... So, ASPL respects the scouts' choices. IMHO, perhaps have the Troop Guide support and mentor the ASPL. That is the job of a troop guide.

#1 Size & deep pockets. #2 Long-standing, history of being insured at the national level. From what I've seen, church-based youth camps DO have the same issues. I'd be surprised if hard, difficult cases like the BSA liability case get resurrected for an individual camp that might have 5 or 10 cases from 30 or 40 years ago; especially as most youth camps barely make money and the affiliated churches are not cash rich either. Simply put, lawyers need big cash incentives to get involved.

I've seen this before with Knights of Columbus and their squires program. KofC Squires or Elks Antlers are too niche without broad visibility. Heck, I know zero adults who are Elks. I know far more that are active in KofC, but I've never heard of a youth using Squires. IMHO, Antlers and Squires are not a BSA replacement. Also, Elks (like many fraternal organizations) has membership issues of their own. PLUS ... if Elks' Antlers program was successful, it would be facing much of the same liability issues that BSA has had. IMHO, the issue is insuring a massive scale youth program.

Probably smaller organizations that start up and shut down. That purchase insurance on their own. Maybe it would be good that a troop would startup and dissolve over 10 or 20 years. BSA has long been a lightning rod for all the society ills for the last 100+ years. It bankrupted and nearly killed BSA. Maybe BSA should oversee camps that outside organizations use; if they come with their own insurance, etc. Or, have the camps as individual on-going non-profit organizations that run themselves. Or, petition government to own special state and national parks that specialize in hosting youth groups. I fear that structurally BSA may not be compatible with the current legal system. I think BSA needs to re-think how it exists structurally.

IMHO ... It's not at all that national is clueless or making decisions in a vacuum. This is 100% about legal liability for a great youth program run loosely by outside volunteers and BSA being held liable for societal ills. This is why "I think" BSA should NOT be a membership organization. It should be a certifying body. BSA should certify that the outside youth in an outside organization (Troop ###) completed rank requirements. They should not be certifying safety or membership or liable for each and every camp out. BSA will never wield enough control to be able to legally protect themselves and their members.

I'm glad I'm transitioned now. At one point, we had four actively registered scouts in my family and two registered adults. That would have been $440 in national fees. Probably another $320 in council fees at least. $760 for just registration and before Boy's Life magazine, camping, uniforms, activities, miscellaneous AND fundraising to keep the unit viable. Wow! In hind sight, I am sure there were many years that scouting cost was at least $5000 a year and some that must have been near twice that. Jamboree. High adventures. Four summer camps. ... and the miscellaneous cost for all those sleeping bags, tents and garage full of gear. The real issue is moving these costs up front. It makes it a decision factor. I'm sure baseball and other activities would have been similar in cost for four active kids. BUT, the cost is now very visible. Perhaps BSA should move more and more toward a certification model. Here is the intellectual property and the requirements. Send proof that you completed the requirements. Then, BSA publishes the certificate confirming your achievement. No taking responsibility for adult leaders. Heck, having all MBCs as pre-registered BSA members defeats the concept of a MBC.

I'm sure your son faced enough judgements over those two years between suspension and the Eagle application. If after the suspension, the troop kept the scout registered, then the suspension should not be used against him. Key point is keeping the scout registered and participating is tacit agreement that the scout could earn Eagle if he stays active and working the requirements. It's too late at the EBOR to use the suspension against the scout. ... It might be very different if the incident was a month before the EBOR.

Ongoing i Ongoing improvement is good. Practice is good. Finding a reason to perfect and grow skills is good. The problem is referring to it as a test. In the SMC, it's not. It's part of the conversation and not a pass or fail condition.

I wish I could provide more detail. Four months seems long, but I'm not sure. QUESTION - Did you appeal to national via your council? Or did you directly appeal to national? I'm curious about procedures. I ask as I'm wondering if and when national received the appeal. Was there a middle man? Did it really get there?

Wow !!! I wanted to comment that books and uniforms are profit centers that are not subsidized by national fees. So, I was curious. What is the price of a new handbooks from scout shop? $23.99 for Wolf, Bear, Webelos, etc. All ring bound. No hard bound. $24.99 for troop handbooks. Our pack used to buy cubs their books. We stopped when they were around $12 or $15. Most cubs went without. At $24.99 and the online scoutbook, I'd be tempted to go without for the troop scout level paper copy too. I'd be tempted to create a nice thin, small troop level pamphlet where scouts could keep their advancement signatures. What is really disgusting to me is the $20 for the online scout handbook. Online versions of this stuff should be free! In fact, let a well structured group of volunteers manage all the scout literature. If it works for Linux, it can definitely work for scout literature. Then, partner with Kinkos or FedEx to print copies for individuals that really want paper.

Saw this in our council too. Every non-profit is fundraising so much and scouting is not the darling child anymore. Maybe 20 years from now, scouting will find it's roots and do better again. Until then, council fees are in vogue. IMHO, the real issue is the market does not support big council staffs anymore. Like camera film development and fax machine sales, the market has shifted. Time for the councils to re-think their business models. National too. The real question is does the individual scout get value from the $75 national and $100+ council fees which their own units are staffed by volunteers and the camp fees are separate. For example, maybe scouting could partner with other organizations on the annual background checks, incident reporting and youth protection. I've had multiple years where I had three or four or five background checks run. I always think about the wasted cost. I'm sure there are many, many ways to restructure the administration.

I agree. Also, it would help address borderline units where the unit has a low number of boys or a low number of girls. Critical mass of numbers is so so important in scouting to make it a fun program.

Minimizing council administrative cost per scout is the biggest argument for merging councils. If scout exec is $46 per scout, then double or triple that for all the council staff combined. So, it would be $100 or more per scout for council administrative staff. Especially recognizing that camp staffing should be from a different bucket. Scout shop is a different bucket.