fred8033

I think this is brilliant. Connects with the younger generations. Many adults in the 20s and even early 30s often see eSports tournaments bigger than NFL, etc. https://www.google.com/search?q=image+esports+tournaments&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjd3qXV5Lz6AhVuazABHU9dABUQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=image+esports+tournaments&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoECCMQJ1DsCljqD2DzEWgAcAB4AIABdogB5gOSAQMzLjKYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=KwU3Y52dOO7WwbkPz7qBqAE&bih=833&biw=1706&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS1008US1009 I still remember the first time I saw the Las Vegas Luxor (huge casino) permanently rebranded as an eSports venue. BSA eSports tournaments could ... Promotes fellowship Promotes competition. A chance for youth to aspire in the same way they see nation wide trends If rightly used, a way for troops to be more involved with their scouts. I remember multiple times Scouts at troop campfires planning online / video gaming events AND ... Scouts at troop video gaming events planning their next campout Video gaming is the new poker, canasta, uker, hearts, spades, pokemon, yugio, etc, etc. It's just part of their lives. It's really not that big of an issue. ... It would be big if this replaces a troop's outdoor program and activities.

It's slight wording like this that would make me hesitate to give permission. Asserting a parent wants to be isolated is a biased and belittling view of the parents opinion. ... I probably would give permission as my son would be boxed in. I'd truly have contempt for the situation. I'd reluctantly and grudgingly give permission. People can have real differences of opinion while being well informed and connected to society. I was in a discussion this last weekend. I expressed an opinion that was based on what I've seen and read. Instead of discussion and trying to work true the details, it was asserted I must be watching bad news sources. That similarly subverts the MB and can teach bad lessons. The scout knows the MB is looking for larger differences. I'm not sure this would teach a good lesson. BUT, it would get out of the dog house. IMHO ... scouts has a purpose of teaching how government works. Scouts should not get into controversial topics.

Well written article. Similar articles (won't list now) on the poor press coverage of such incidents. The press really coverage really added little. It stopped because no one likes unjustly being accused of being mean.

@qwazse ... We are really too far removed from the specifics to judge either direction on "truth". Inferring either way is useless. Inferring it's okay for unit leaders to routinely second guess a MBC is just bad and does NOT have any standing in the GTA. Future leaders would do well to read GTA for rules and intent. ... The rule is a MBC is the final judge on if the MB is done; not the unit leader. Unit leaders are not to second guess requirement wording / specifics / etc. As this escalated so fast, there is more going on than this discussion thread can handle.

@nolesrule ... Speaking from experience. Your scout's career is short. You have a three month suspension. You're banned from troop meetings. Then add another six months to get back to normal. Another year to stop looking over your shoulder waiting for the next problem to drop. Yet another year to build trust. And risk that it will never recover. IMHO ... move on. Things might recover, but all events for the next year will be tainted at best. It's just not worth putting your child in the middle of your pain to fix this situation. Plus, your child might benefit from seeing you leave a bad situation. ... every decision has many results and many lessons ... If your scout has an option for a strong girls troop near by, have her join. You can just be a parent and enjoy life as a scouting parent. If already established in venturing, focus on that. For those from this mess ... Be humble and kind and warm hearted when you see these people in the future. Own up to your own mistakes. Avoid reminding them of their mistakes. Even though you won't be in the same unit, try to heal the relationships. Strange thing is that scouters often re-encounter each other. I am not saying you are wrong. IMHO, if the camp issued the MB, it's done. ... but reality is this should never have escalated like it did. ... what can be done different? ... Perhaps, step back and enjoy a more personal role with your scout. Sneak a few treats together. Watch a sunset together. Go on an extra hike together. Beyond that, let others lead for a bit. ... I say that because when I've gone thru messes like this, it really damages confidence. My reactions can be based more on emotion than logic or common sense. Small issues get escalated. ... It takes time to get reground and move past events like this. Just enjoy the time. ... Being a leader is like being in a relationship. Takes time to build and grow. When it crashes, jumping into a new leadership role won't go well. Give it time.

You are right. That's what I've seen too. Council invests to help recruit. I was thinking from running the pack. Council did little to help run a pack.

Yes and no. Tigers until 2000 was essentially a friend of the pack. ... Started in 1982 as a parent/child activity. Only to attend a few pack meetings a year. No derby car. No uniform. 1986 age lowered when ranks became grade aligned. 1996 more aligned with pack. 2001 was when Tiger became an integrated part of the pack. I remember that one as my oldest son was a wolf. He was the last age to use the orange t-shirts as a uniform. I liked that t-shirt. It was cheap. "enough data"? Again, yes and no. We've seen constant declines for 20+ years. Was it bad press coverage of Dale v BSA, CSA and IVF files? Internet and all kids online all the time? Growth of youth sports? Or, the Tiger & Lion program? Causality is not clean or singular. To be fair, I don't think Lion/Tiger is the biggest cause. ... but that's just a guess.

14/15 year olds just don't care much about resume building. Give them adventure, friendships and fun. They will come. The rest is just decoration.

@nolesrule ... Ugh. Kids can easily tell when their parents are upset about something. Often they hear pieces of conversation and pickup fast. What could have been a torn could have become a stopping point for her. Is there another girl's troop near by to join? Is the other ASM just out-right quitting along with his daughter quitting? Or would they consider another troop? Have you already paid your Jamboree money? At some point ... and I should have said this earlier ... take a look at your scout's overall experience. Is it good or bad with the SM/CC? If neutral to good, this becomes a lesson in working with other people. The specific MB is just not that important. Though I have contempt for what happened, this might not be the war you want to fight. I'd be more concerned with keeping your daughter on the path toward a positive experience and growing as a positive good person. The rest is just not critical. FYI ... Doesn't sound like the COR handled this the best either. There is no need for trials or asking people to leave the room when presenting their views on what happened. IMHO ... that's a sign of already bad things that will end scouting careers. It's no way to resolve a MB. ... This sounds like major personality conflict inside the unit.

1) Volunteers. ... Agree with earlier. Simplify as much as possible. Look for free community events and/or resources. If your city is having a big vehicle day when your city shows off it's big stuff, somehow find a way to get the whole pack to meetup there. Maybe grab an area off to the side for a rally point. Find a city park and have a pack game day. 2) Facility ... Us too. We rented a school space. It was cheap. Dens met at their own choice. 3) Council ... Councils don't do anything for individual packs. Period. Don't expect different. 4) Cost ... Agree with earlier. Reduce the cost. Don't need to buy books until the troop years. Maybe webelos. Uniform? It gets clumsy. Some don't want to spend. Some expect everyone uniformed. It's a really screwed up expectation. ... but you are right, pack scouts reap huge revenue for BSA where troop scouts is less but the big focus. 5) Ages. ... "This is the one easy one. @Armymutt is correct" ... but I also agree with your assertion. There is zero learning K-3 that is useful later. Even 4th and 5th grades are an excuse to start younger boys that want to join their older brother's troops. IMHO, youth could join a troop never having been in a pack and no one would notice a difference after the first week. 6) Indoors/outdoors. ..."Do what's fun for the scouts. Getting them comfortable being outside while having fun is the best preparation for scouts." ... love that answer. 7) Religion. Yep. Focus on scout law. Leave religion for the families.

You are right. If other packs have a Lions den OR if your council advertises Lions, you are basically forced (for the health of your pack) to have a Lions den. Or, those dedicated families will go to other packs and start drawing away from your pack. Fully agree. Even before Lions (and essentially Tigers ... or girls ... or ...), packs often had multiple "family" events per year. There was no need to make Lions and Tigers official ranks or registered members.

Wrong. It has a bad influence. Tigers is similar, but not as extremely evident. ... IMHO ... start'em when you can give them a knife, fire or bow-and-arrow.

Yes. It is NOT the unit leader's job to second guess the MBC or the camp staff. A unit leader after-the-fact second-guessing the camp staff / MBC sucks the life out of the scout. It's an enthusiasm killer. Camp staff often design accommodations to allow doing a MB in a camp setting and with a group. The best example often is when a group is sampled for requirement "discuss" answers instead of requiring each and every scout to answer the question. Other flexibility is done to focus on giving the scout a positive, rewarding experience while still teaching the content of the MB. I'm absolutely okay with partials. BUT, that's the choice of the MBC; not the unit leader. A key point is the MBs are a council / district program. MBs are NOT a unit program. MBCs are council registered; not unit registered. Unit leaders are absolutely NOT there to "monitor the specifics of the verbs" or second guess the MBCs. That's a clear sign of overstepping boundaries. Unit leaders need to focus on unit program quality. If unit leaders don't like the MBC choices, then the unit leader lets their council know. They do NOT take it out on the scout.

Key to finding adults is it's mainly a chat with the scout. Encouraging the scout and collecting casual feedback on how the troop is doing. So, it's really nothing more than a relaxed chat. One experienced adult and two other adults are enough. It's really not "asking for help" as much as having someone just sit in.

@nolesrule ... You will not get an exact procedure. There is none. Scouting is very much a social experiment where kind people with kind hearts work with each other. We try not to apply rules or procedures against each other. The idea is the SM should be talking with those involved and talking with the scout. With thoughtfulness. With a kind heart. With consideration and a listening ear. The idea is to build connection and teach a lesson. If I were SM, I should not fight a battle about an Astronomy MB earned at summer camp using scouting staff and a standard program offered to all troops. It sounds more like a dispute between SM and camp programming. If so, the scout should not be in the middle. GTA 7.0.4.7 is titled "Limited recourse" as it's supposed to be rare and not used like this. GTA 7.0.4.7 is for obvious errors that everyone agrees a mistake happened ... OR .. a liar liar pants on fire situation. This is not your case. Your case is a debate if the MBC (camp staff) correctly interpreted the requirement. ... GTA 7.0.4.7 is not to dispute a camp staff MB program.

Ouch. The bankruptcy process itself is a business killer. It's like hospital fears some of my extended relatives have --> don't go into the hospital because the hospital might kill you. Sadly, there is some basis in fact with that. Bankruptcy legal process is similar. ... Sometimes companies have to invest in loss leaders for strategic reasons.

Our troop too. I don't think it's that unusual in a good sized troop.

#1 ... not only extorting defendants ... it biases juries. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is to convict on a single charge; but situations are rarely clear cut. A jury can feel good about their decision if they feel they proportionately convict. ... Thinking being we're not really sure if the accused is really guilty. So, let's convict on one of five of the charges. That way the decision to not convict on the 4 of 5 reflects the doubt and feels like a fair decision. In addition, juries think he must be guilty of one of these. Let's choose the closest match. ... Even worse, these situations are ugly. It's hard for a jury to see an ugly situation and not convict on any of multiple charges. #2 Fair punishment is always hard to decide. Even harder deciding on fair without having a single fact.

Don't judge. It's not scout like either. ... It's a tragedy. ... We're trying to understand what happened. ... Also be careful, responsible adults are not automatically criminals. ... I suspect real negligence happened here. But, we don't know that yet as the news article has not provided any meaningful details. No matter what, it's a tragedy for all involved.

Me too. Shooting sports rules have always been seriously followed. This incident sounds like negligence. The question is how egregious. We are missing lots on this story. ... Examples ... how many scouts were present? Three adults sounds like minimum to open a shooting range for a troop shoot at the camp. If the troop brought 20 to 30 scouts and the range had 8 to 10 shooting spots, then having 18 guns could be reasonable. Spares. Not sure which are shooting well or which sights were well aligned. privately owned? could be shooting instructor let his personal collection of 22s be used. 23 charges? Were there really 23 different issues or one or two issues and trying to find the right charge? My gut says journalism written to be inflammatory. Sounds like 5 or more against each of three men, somehow totaling 23. Also prosecutors could be charging all even slightly possible crimes. Then, let it resolve thru a trial or plea deals. My gut says the men failed to follow required procedures and failed to secure ammunition. With today's attitude on blame and guns, the death of a youth with a gun will result in a charges whether or not someone could be convicted of a crime.

Well said earlier. This statement is extremely poignant. Some of scouting's worst moments and when we try to force the learning.

This is what I believe 100%. Absolutely.

I've heard about that research, but not seen it. I question reaching the conclusion from the research. We may be losing opportunity with some families that become committed to other programs, but I think we lose far more from burn-out and from a too-early meaningless program. I see lots of families drop out of baseball, soccer and other activities after the first few years. I'd argue that when a child enters 3rd grade, those parents are looking for something new, fresh and the next bigger step. IMHO, that should be scouting with knives, fire, outdoors and shooting sports. Instead of waiting for the youth to be ready for the program, we've dumbed down the program to the point the program loses it's benefit and it's attraction.

That's my biggest fear. It starts to break the scout's commitment to scouting. The scout showed up. The scout did as instructed. The scout fulfilled their end. Now they don't get what was promised. It breaks the scout's commitment and kills their excitement. The specific badge just does not matter that much. The path to get the badge does though. IMHO, it's got to be pretty extreme for troops to say no. A scout or family knowing they did something wrong. A paperwork error the scout agrees with. This though is a MBC doing as planned and the scout fulfilling that. IMHO, in cases like these, the blue card is signed validly and it's a done badge.

IMHO ... I think this is the exact problem killing scouting. Kudos to @5thGenTexan. IMHO, Cubs starting so young is burning out the adults and burning out families. IMHO, the program should start in 3rd grade. 2nd grade is a gray area. K & 1st are just wrong and damages the program and burns out the adults. Scouting should start when the scouts can socialize and be responsible. Until then, let families have their time together. Let them try out soccer and baseball and the other activities. THEN, when they are ready, let them come to scouts. I think the biggest scouting killer is pushing scouting down to such young ages where parents treat scouting more like baby sitting and the benefits at that age are not that significant. By the scouts get to the key ages that make huge differences, the whole family is burnt out on the program.