fred8033

@clbkbx ... What portion of the $368m are BSA side legal fees versus victim representative fees vs other fees ? If the court approves the fees, then it's the cost of the bankruptcy and reduces what was available at the start of the bankruptcy.

I greatly appreciate Eagle1993 adding the values together. The current fees are $368m. How much further will it go? six months more? a year? How much to setup and administer the trust? Assuming trust goes for years. What percent of individual awards go to the individual lawyers? BSA brought about $400m to the bankruptcy. So, fees will be at least 100% of the BSA bankruptcy. Effectively, the whole bankruptcy was re-invested / gambled as legal fees to negotiate with insurance companies. My big fear is ... If 3rd party releases are appealed and decided illegal and insurance companies withdraw, the available funds go to zero. ... The whole idea of large legal fee awards in cases like this is that the legal firms are taking on huge risk to pay the cost up front. ... I just don't see that in this case. I question whether we will ever understand how much went to the actual victims. I completely don't understand outside of pre-billed feels versus award sharing percentages. How much of individual awards will be split with their individual lawyers. If a victim gets awarded $100,000, will $25,000 / $30,000 go to their representing lawyer? If the lawyers firm billed fees in this case, will the lawyer also get a high percent of the award? Lower percent? No share?

Hope this will be allowed. I thought of BSA's bankruptcy when I listened to the settlement in the Florida condo collapse. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article265041154.html Lawyer hourly fees can have a 4.x multiplier in Florida The one year case had 17 law firms (132 attorneys, paralegals and assistants) who recorded 34,200 hours. ... Image of Tom Cruise Xeroxing time sheets in the Firm. Melded rate (attorney, paralegals, assistants) of $715 ... expensive paralegals and assistants. Total $24.7 million. Could have been 4.5x resulting in $100m legal fees. Judge awarded 3x for multiplier - awarded $65m legal fees Settlement was $1.1 billion Attorney fees were 6.5 % of settlement. A success considering normal 25% to 30% fees. Lots to discuss even in this case, but at least victims families did well in the settlement. Made me think about BSA's bankruptcy.

IMHO, the press repeating "fully funded" would be a continuation of the press loosely and sloppily using words to make interesting a relatively boring story about small steps in a long-running court case. We've seen that repeatedly in this case (and really most news events). I always fear press interpretations and prefer using it to get the facts. The story is the potential settlement took a small step forward, but also faced a few objections that need resolution. In this case, I see no reason why insurers would contribute if they can't get protection from future settlements / demands. Saying it's fully funded in a way to protect insurers seems very important.

I'm not suggesting to eliminate the MBs pamphlets. I'm not suggesting rewriting the requirements ... except to reduce the number of words and reduce the legalism. I'm saying the MBs should reflect more social interaction and more activity. Though okay as a fallback, I don't want to send scouts away to read a MB pamphlet.

Back to the heart of scouting. Outings and social interactions. Canoeing MB? Go canoeing. Hold the paddle. During the trip, show a j-stroke and how to properly enter and exit the canoe. Discuss the names and parts of the canoe. Bicycling MB? Go biking and fix a tire and etc, etc. Camping MB? Go camping. Work thru the requirement details in a one-on-one basis. Citizen of the nation MB? Have the conversations. Go visit historical sites. Have the discussions. MB pamphlets should be the fall back, but not the main path. Scouting is not school with assigned text books and worksheets. MB pamphlets are better for the MBC than for the scout. More like the teacher's answer guide.

Troop stopped maintaining MB book library. Extremely rarely used. Just not worth the effort. I flip-flop. Price is too much. I fear inflation pushing price even higher. It's not thifty. Also, the MB book practice is anachronistic in an online society. When scouts are driven and motivated, they won't pick up a physical book. They go-online fast. On the flip side, there is something about a physical book. Opening and seeing pictures and words with fixed locations on paper and the words will still be in that exact spot the next day. I remember the eco building with their books where scouts would work. Scouts did often open those books. ... BUT ... they opened the books when idle and absorbing the eco center. .... They never opened the books when pushed to earn a badge. As a MBC, I just can't honestly recommend the scouts get the MB book. Scouts are to learn the topic; not pushed to spend money.

We've done that too. Always was a great event. To avoid multiple setup/tear down, we chose an area with multiple activities / options ... then found a centrally located camp site (state park, national forest, private). Scouts that still wanted the standard, every-year summer camp option. They felt robbed if they could not repeat the same summer camp each year. Our "ideal" pattern was ... did not happen perfectly every year. Jun/Jul/Aug - one month - troop standard summer camp commitment. Jun/Jul/Aug - one month - patrol sized high adventure Jun/Jul/Aug - one month - troop low adventure summer camp ... similar to stated in previous post Required lots of parental support and a healthy number of leaders.

Referring to future court cases. LDS & scouting was tightly integrated. I don't see how court cases can be cleanly scouting or church. ... It feels like a future court case nightmare. ... I'm wondering how lawyers interpret liability if in one view has bankruptcy protection and the other doesn't.

So, the debate then will always be ... was it church based or was it scouting based. I can understand why they want to still be in the bankruptcy as a participating CO.

Does this mean incidents will need to be judged on whether they were "scouting" or "church"? If scouting, it's part of bankruptcy? If church, it's not?

VFC? VFW?

I'm burnt out on the discussion of same age / new scout / mixed age / etc for patrol design. I wanted to add though ... the worst mistake our troop ever did was rebalance the patrols where the SPL and the ASPL based on input from a strong-willed parent rebalanced by assigning scouts to new patrols. Horrible mistake. The first / second year scouts took it easy. The 16/17 year old scouts almost quit. I'm highly for letting the scouts choose their patrol ... always ... with a little bit of supportive guidance from SM / SPL. Let the scouts switch patrols if they want. I just hate telling the scouts here's who you will be your partner all weekend. It's the number one way to create scouts that ignore what you say. I still remember the 16/17 year old scouts who had strong ownership of their Wolverine patrol. Learned at an Eagle COH that they choose the name because they loved the movie Red Dawn and that was the team mascot in the movie. They had strong patrol ownership. Proud. Then, being told to (in their eyes) arbitrarily join a random new patrol. It destroyed a point of pride they had.

There must be more to the story. Did the CC ask the unit commissioner to run the mtg? There is no path for a unit commissioner or former COR to take charge without the unit putting them in that position.

... we got bounced ... ... too controversial.

That's a huge branding loss. Tabernacle choir is rather generic and few know what/where Temple Square is. I fear this will be long-term like The Artist Formerly known as Prince. We will have a choir formerly known as the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

Thank you for the answer !!!!! Wow. Even if two or three legal entities, those are massive deep, deep pockets to sue. .... FYI ... I periodically have to look up TCJC. It's not a common abbreviation for LDS without LDS tacked on.

Great insight. Reflect on the scout law and the values we want to teach. We don't want to teach our scouts to look down on others. Why would we want our marketing to lift scouting up by looking down on other choices. ... I like competitions and races and championships to find who's the best and to raise the game. BUT, I don't like pride thru snearing another person's faults. Should not be in our marketing too.

Thank you ! That explains what I thought would happen. If a CO opts out, they maintain insurance rights even against an insurance company that settled. That's what I would expect. So, if LDS opted out or for COs that are not part of the settlement, those COs still have claims against their insurance ... even if that insurance company settled ... considering previously posted time periods and insurance coverage info.

Agree. Parents are looking for the outdoors, adversity, etc. Not many parents crave the standing at attention uniforming anymore.

Hmmm ... I read the Mike Rowe article. Yep. Fully agree. ... Standing up to aversity instead of providing a safe space. ... Speaking as a parent (not a leader), I would have supported my son's troop having a boxing ring to resolve arguments. It's a very important memory from my son's boot camp experience. He was able to call out someone who did him wrong and they addressed it then and there. ... I would not have the skill to run it, but I could see that being valuable. My goal for my son's scouting experience was to get them out of their comfort zone and do new, harder things. I often describe it as experiencing canoe camping or bad weather or other outdoor challenges. Well, there is also the need for standing up for yourself and facing adversity. And yes also adversity in the face of another person. Marketing? I agree. Parents are aware of scouting. Marketing could always improve and scouting misses standing in front of 2nd grade class rooms and show pinewood derby cars to recruit scouts. But the real issue is the product. Even scouters are confused on it's value. Baseball, football, etc have clean statements of why they exist. I'm not sure scouters always know why scouting exists.

Thank you for the nice write-up. This is the part that will eternally confuse me. The insurance settlement is with the victim; not the theoretical CO. Unless the insurance company is bankrupt, why would the CO go after the settlement trust. The CO should work with the existing insurance company that insured the CO. This smells like a 100% match of the 1990s California BCBS class action. BCBS insured patients and BCBS was negotiating discounts (aka settling) on medical bills and leaving the patient out of discount (settlement). The medical providers then went after the patients for the remaining part of the original bill. The CA courts ruled (my crude summary) that BCBS breached the insurance contract by not including the patient in the negotiated discounted bills. BSA insurance settling liability claims without covering the insured CO smells like a violation of the basic insurance agreements.

Question #1 - TCJC has deep pockets but do those pockets extend to incidents that happen at a specific church temple / specific troop? I compare it to Catholic churches where collectively they have huge assets, but legally they are very separate. Diocese are individually incorporated. Many of the local churches are even not legally owned by the diocese. Is that similar with TCJC? Or is there a stronger legal ownership connection to the national TCJC ? Question #2 - Sort of still related ... and asked before ... how do insurers settle but the insured still has liability? If COs like TCJC are not in the settlement and the insurance company is not bankrupt, then TCJC should be able to go after the insurance company that insured those incidents ... it seems like the insurance company won't have full liability protection.

Shooting Sports guide. Page 100. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor Program/pdf/30931_WB.pdf ... Must be bio-degradable and ping pong sized. Ok with catapult and sling-shot. Never aimed at a person. .... It can be argued that the rule applies to only shooting events. The specific rules are under catapults and sling shots. ... So, throwing a water balloon by hand is not subject to shooting sports rules. Then, look at Guide To Safe Scouting ... https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf ... "Prohibited Activities ... 15. Activities where participants shoot or throw objects at each other, such as rock throwing, paintball, laser or archery tag, sock fights, or dodgeball" Now, that's pretty clear. It's one of those rules that we hate. But then again, scouts can easily become a lord of the flies situation where the strong gang up on the weak. It's an understandable rule from that aspect.

It's really about breaking the ice; getting the new guy up in-front with a positive experience so that they want to be up there again. And, when it's friends with friends, there is something different there. In cubs, it was mostly scout with proud parents. Now, it's the scout's peers recognizing him and the adults off to the side / back. We all nit-pick when things don't work out. The smallest issues get under our skin. I would have loved to have been part of a troop that could meet at a camp regularly. But then again, I'd imagine that gift can twist the mentality of the troop and the volunteers too. IMHO ... don't get stuck trying to make it work. If you and your scout decide to stay, great! ... but if you are already losing sleep over it, seriously considering moving on. Another troop. Another activity. In hindsight, our kids years are short. There are many paths to take. Trying to force a good result from a bad situation is not constructive. IMHO ... look at your scout and see what is best for him. At times, I wish I would have just bought a popup camper and taken the family on more adventures. Other times, I am thankful for the memories my sons have with their friends.