fred johnson

It's only discrimination in the same way that you need to be Jewish to be a rabbi or Catholic to be priest or usually a Christian to be a pastor. IMHO, a church that wants to remove local option either choose which religions are acceptable or remove faith from core part of BSA. You just can't force "unit" level membership and also keep it as a faith based program.

This is not about the venue. It's more about the MBC investment. Riffle and Shotgun MBs - We expect them to be something similar to a NRA instructor. I'd expect the MBC to bring training posters, different types of guns and other training tools. I'd also expect a fair amount of shooting supervised by the MBC. Archery - Similar. Training tools. Equipment. Skills practice. Swimming - Similar. Hiking - Similar. Examples of shoes, backpacks, resources. Go hiking. Biking - similar. Bikes. Trip planning. Scouts is an active program. Why do MBCs ever expect to mainly talk about "merit badge" requirements and then send the scout away? IMHO, the best merit badges are where the MBC never says the word "requirement".

As much as I hate Krampus's icon, he has the right view. It less about disability and more about capability. We expect the scout to make an effort and to hopefully stretch. In another words, all things are not equal. What we may accept from an eleven year old scout is different than what I would expect from a seventeen year old and this is absolutely reasonable. The whole purpose of the advancement program is to get the scout to grow. Each scout starts at a different place and reaches a different place at the end. So, when it says discuss, explain, demonstrate, etc, ... IMHO, .... --> .... all things are not equal. A good example is anything that includes writing. I expect a better job done by a seventeen year old scout than an eleven year old scout. Each to his ability. Now if some requirements can't be done at all because of a medical issue, then pursue an exception. Otherwise, work to the potential ability of the scout.

I strongly disagree. Eagle94-A1 is right to bring BSA's statement into it. From http://www.scouting....selorGuide.aspx As a merit badge counselor, your mission is to join fun with learning. You are both a teacher and mentor as the Scout works on a merit badge and learns by doing. Your hands-on involvement could inspire a Scout to develop a lifelong hobby, pursue a particular career, or become an independent, self-supporting adult. [Emphasis added] Not to pick on you at all, but I think this reflects on the fundamental issue of advancement versus adult interaction and mentoring and experiences. IMHO, if the main MBC role is to check that requirements are done, then the whole MB program is pretty worthless. Instead of saying it's the boy who's doing the work, I'd say the scout is "actively participating" in the merit badge experience.

I don't see MBUs or group settings as the issue. IMHO, completing or not completing on the same day is not the same issue. I see it as lame efforts. I have seen some great group merit badges. Chess ... Moderate size class. Lots of chess boards. Part learning about the game. Part tournament. Cool music played during the tournaments. Theater ... Drama done in a fun way Archaeology ... Done with a park ranger that was excavating an indian camp Archery ... Multiple people building and others shooting at the same time Indian lore ... Stories and information that locked the attention of the scouts Weather ... Done at the national weather service Photography ... Scouts brought cameras and spent a large part taking pictures Astronomy ... Late night star parties Architecture ... Class left the classroom and started touring the local area Fingerprinting ... Teacher brought multiple finger printing devices and finger print sensor devices. Brought flash cards to teach major patterns. I have seen some done great one year and lame the next. First Aid Good - One year taught by med students that brought break-out body mannequins, CPR dummies, AEDs and lots of other stuff Bad - Taught by freshman / softmore pre-med students that had relatively little experience, no resources and invested little in the effort IMHO, it's less about the venue. It's about the MBC's investment and/or ability to make it a great experience. IMHO, counselors need to be vetted and on-boarded as part of counseling. At minimum, a phone call communicating expectations. If they can't fulfill expectations, then they should not teach the badge. Period.

Yet another lame merit badge class. I've seen the ups and downs of merit badges. But lately, it's just negatives. Way too much focus and/or concern about earning the badge and completing the requirements. Way too little focus on making it interesting and/or a great experience. ** TAUGHT BY PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT SKILLED IN THE TOPIC ** A year ago, one of my sons really wanted to learn about a topic that was covered by a merit badge. He went out of his way to ask to be signed up for it. Interesting? Not at all. All power point and class room droning. All to the requirements --> POINT BY POINT. Little useful or meaningful or even a reason to attend. Yesterday, some very good people ... very good ... put on merit badge sessions for scouts. Dozens of scouts showed up. A few of the merit badges were taught by people with very special skills in the topic and a long fascinating history. Those would have been great. My sons took classes that should have been interesting, but they were taught by someone with no experience, no tools or anything unique. Just there to address the requirements. Not even someone who was in a related field. Just a willing helpful very nice person who wanted to help. The result was my sons had yet another bad scouting experience. We looked and asked about how the second one was to be done. It was the same. Same person teaching in fact. So, we left before the second started. They did not want to stay. They did not need either badge. We just thought it would be a fun way to spend Saturday and that the topics were cool. It would be nice to have the merit badge on their sash, but that's just a reflection of an experience. I WANT MY SONS TO HAVE FASCINATING EXPERIENCES. I want them to WANT to go to these merit badge sessions. Otherwise, why even have a merit badge program. I am offering a merit badge to our scouts in December. I've done it before and scouts have said it's fun and enjoyable. I've even had scouts who had the badge see how we will be covering the badge and have come with anyhow. I PROMISE I WILL NOT TEACH A BADGE UNLESS I CAN MAKE IT INTERESTING AND A GOOD EXPERIENCE.

Yeah, I see that too. When we have activities, the youth participants are almost 30% girls. It would be 50/50 if they could be official members. Venturing is co-ed. Leadership is co-ed. Cub Scouts is in many ways co-ed. Sooner or later, girls will be allowed as full members. Heck, as someone pointed out to me recently, the Boy Scout Handbook now just says Scout Handbook.

IMHO, today is not 1979. Society has different expectations. When school related activity schedules change, communication is sent through multiple channels. Same with sports and many different things. You can choose to communicate like it was 1979, but your group will be viewed badly because of it. Times change. I agree there were values in the lessons from back then. But then again, we have many lessons that can still be taught such as remembering to bring extra shoes or coordinating who is bringing the tent or the food shopping or .... Times change. Our scout communication is face-to-face and/or through printed newsletters or camp sign-up permission forms. Scouts may choose to use text messages, but not all our scouts have phones. Many do not have email. Adult communication is through email and Facebook.

Unless you leave your at 2pm or 3pm Friday, there is no reason boys should be making a Friday dinner. You only have three or four hours before bed time Friday. Between setting up, plan changes, getting organized, there is just too little time for a major Friday night cooking, eating and cleaning. Where is the fun time of just sitting by the camp fire and enjoying each other's company. Agreed though. Don't nit-pick the scoutmaster. People will have opinions and change can happen. But, there is a way to do it.

Going on a tangent ... but I believe it's related because BSA is wrong to position scouts such that it competes with sports. BSA needs to market itself in a different way because BSA just can't compete head-on with sports for discipline, skills, etc. BSA needs to market itself on ... outdoor experiences building life-long friendships leaders teaching values taking scouts out of their comfort zone IMHO, the direct effect is ... Move Cub scouts to start in 2nd or 3rd grade. Kindergarten and 1st graders are too young to develop those strong bonds outside their own families. Stop competing with other programs earlier and earlier to get scouts. Even Tiger cub is too young to get the direct benefit of Cub Scouts. Recruiting too young forces an early choice between scouts and sports. ​The choices happens when sports experiences look challenging and disciplined and kindergarten and 1st grade cub scouts looks like unorganized mess. Starting too young burns out both the scout because the cub scout program is so repetitive. Starting too young burns out the adults because cub scouts takes a lot of adult commitment. three years is a stretch but doable. Five+ or six+ years of Cub Scouts is just too too too long. I've seen multiple dedicated families quit when one boy transitions up to boy scouts and the younger kids have already seen Cub Scouts for five plus years. Families get burned out keeping the cub scout program going. Start Cub Scouts at the age when we can teach knives and fire and how to setup a tent. Focus on what scouting is really about. The patrol. aka ... a set of close friends that want to do things together. We restarted that focus recently and it is a huge hit. Growing those friendships between the scouts is INVALUABLE. Plan times the scouts can just hang together to play games, watch movies or do what kids CURRENTLY want to do. Heck, even Magic card tournaments is a good idea. For scouts to succeed, the program needs to grow the strong friendships between our scouts. Teaching values Scouts can't really compete on physical fitness or teaching discipline or teaming or reaching to do your best. Sports is an excellent structure to do those things. We can value it and have it as a goal, but it's not a winning comparison with sports. Scouts competes on teaching character. But we really need to think and develop HOW to teach character. IMHO, so much of what I see defeats those lessons. By HOW, I think we need to consider other programs scouts should mimic. Wrong comparison Sports teams - We don't want leaders yelling at members and treating it as a competition. Scouting is not competitive. ROTC - We don't want scouts being commanded. Scouts choose to participate and can choose to not participate. Good comparison Sunday school - Talking about values and beliefs. Going out to do service and activities so members can practice values. My experience is the best leadership in scouts is helpful and asking questions such as "How did that work for you?" To teach character, we need to almost continually talk about character. To teach character, we can use the teaching of skills (knots, fire, first aid, etc) and how we teach those different things to communicate character lessons. To often we say scouting is about character, but we then try to compete where sports is strong. Taking scouts out of their comfort zone Repetitive programs are a killer. No scout wants to do more than three district camporees. Heck, repetitive sports is a big negative too. Keeping scouting fresh is important. ... IMHO ... that's one reason cub scouts being 5+ years is really bad.

Yeah. As much as the troop does outings are important, the purpose of the troop is to teach character and values. We use outings to take scouts out of their comfort zone so they will be open to lessons about character and values. At such an outing ... or for that matter anywhere ... for the scoutmaster to speak badly in front of the troop is a horrible example in my book. Horrible. ... but then again ... I was not there. Maybe it was not as bad as worded. I don't know. I just know the job of the scoutmaster is to live an example to teach others. ... I'd also immediately be wondering what is the scoutmaster saying about me. Or, is it just his modus operandi. In any event, it would raise big red flags for me. I myself have less issue with a crew and a troop leveraging each other's program. It's all a matter of how it's done. IMHO, it would be easier to go to a unit that doesn't camp and help your son plan some simple outings and invite the rest of the troop than to fix a troop that does not want to be fixed. If it's a matter of having his friends with him, he should invite his friends with him to check out the other troop.

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Thank you for the useful comments. I appreciate them.

Good advice. Our scout was sick for awhile and might be a few weeks short on leadership since Eagle. We'd like to make it as simple as possible and would rather not go yet again for another advancement exception. We already had to do one for him for a merit badge that everyone agreed (doctors, family, etc) he just could not do. That took a bit. The other alternative is what someone else suggested. Just back date the position a bit. I guess scout leaders do that at times. I'm just not sure how comfortable I am with it.

I just noticed this when looking at Eagle rank position of responsibility requirement. "Likewise, a unit leader–assigned leadership project should not be used in lieu of serving in a position of responsibility." I swear this was an option before. It still says "should". Outside pontification and painful debates, does anyone have specific knowledge on using a unit a leader assigned leadership project?

In my opinion, it's not that simple at all. Venturing requires a leader of each gender to be present on outings. Well, is that the physical gender, the chosen gender or the opposite of the sexual attraction gender. Just because someone is transsexual, that does not address which sex they are attracted too. IMHO, I would find it EXTREMELY difficult if I had a daughter to be at all comforted that this person was the "female" chaperon. As the father of sons, I am not really any relieved either. IMHO, you are in a no-win position. The two families with most of the leaders knew what they were doing and wanted to avoid any potential conflict. If it was me as committee chair, I'd strongly talk to my son about finding another troop ... if for no other reason than I'd be really upset with how this all occurred. Even if I was not committee chair and as someone who is working with people of many different orientations, I'd be strongly driven to pull my kids. Young kids just don't need to the drama, confusion and complexities that many of these situations can introduce.

Well said.

Great thoughts. People are individuals. So are situations. Be open and friendly and it should go fine.

IMHO, it's going to happen. You are working with their kids. I'd almost be more annoyed and concerned with parents who dump and run and never show any interest. Turn it into a positive. It's a chance for you to get to know the parent and to get the parent on the same page. Perhaps then, you both can influence the scout the same direction. Dump immediately jump to assuming the parent is trying to get the sign-off done for the scout. That very well may not be the case. they may just be trying to understand a different perspective than what they hear from their own son. Probably won't take an hour. Approach it with a smile and an open hand shake.

If a unit wants to have all male leaders, it can. It can be done now but it's an anachronistic idea, out of place in today's society. Heck, if you did it in business or government, you would be sued and fired at the same time. It's just not what society values today. I think MattR had nailed several items. Essentially, BSA's advancement program does twist the program. Pushy parents, yes. Greedy advancement, yes. Heck, I've seen far more bad and lame merit badge experiences than good experiences and way too few great experiences. I really wish being a merit badge counselor was a commitment to provide an inspiring experience. Perhaps, the best way to improve the scout ranks is to just simplify and focus on the basics. Ranks are way too legalistic right now. Way too many detailed putzy requirements. Change the focus to be outdoors, activities and service oriented. For Eagle scout, we only require effectively 20 nights in a tent, essentially the same as the camping merit badge. When my first son finished scouts, he had 250+ overnights. 20 with Cub Scouts. Probably another 100+ as camp staff. Over 150 with the boy scout troop. Of those 150, some were cabin camping, but at least 120 were tents. So, why not say a star scout requires 25 nights camping. Life requires 50. Eagle requires 75. An active troop should have 30 overnights a year. One weekend a month. Seven at a long-term camp. Some higher challenging events too. So getting 75 overnights is just not that hard. Plus, it gets troops back focusing on what counts: getting out and doing things.

I always view this question as a two sided coin. First side ... Consensus. Having the right leaders affects a lot of people. The "Troop Committee Guidebook" describes a good process to get everyone bought into the idea. An open process. Reference checks. Involving multiple people in the process. "Appointing" the next leader can really upset people. Second side ... Authority. Someone once said if you really want to know, look at who signs the document. The BSA adult leader application is signed by the applicant, the committee chair, the charter org rep and the council. So, those are really the deciding people. The applicant decides if he wants to do it. The council does a quick background check. The committee chair and the charter org rep decide that the person is the right person. Their decision may be based on the input of others, but it's their decision. Even then, the charter org rep has the authority to install a new committee chair and can even be the committee chair. As such, it's really the charter org rep's authority and final choice.

I probably went on a bit of a tangent. I didn't volunteer my 1st year. My 2nd year I helped some. My 3rd year I jumped in fully and I really didn't get it for several more years. I really don't know how to speed the process up. It takes time to get the "perception". And, lots of it is filtering out the dozens of viewpoints thrown at you and finding your own perspective of how it's supposed to work successfully. This whole training and getting leaders-up-to-speed is one reason I really think packs and troops need to be strongly partnered with one committee. The idea being then the pack leaders can leverage the boy scout leaders 10+ years of experience each.

From what I've learned of how it worked before, this has always been a problem. But years ago den leaders were relieved somewhere around 2.5 to 3.5 years when the boys started transitioning into Boy Scouts. Now, it's 4.5 or 5.5 years. That's a darn long commitment for an adult. Before, they joined Boy Scouts just before burn out. Now they have two more years. IMHO, that's one big reason for the decline in membership. I hate seeing propping up the numbers by recruiting younger scouts. IMHO, it just puts fewer boys in Boy Scouts which is the program that makes the big difference in their lives. IMHO, if my boys had not joined Cub Scouts, that would have been fine. As long as they joined Boy Scouts.

It will eventually happen as society itself has mostly gone coed. This is more about how and when. Not if.

Yes. Multiple times. It happens. But, I've never seen the beneficiary hire a contractor to fix the damage. The last I saw was when the beneficiary signed-off on a project. Then changed attitude and wanted it done with different materials that the scout was not comfortable using. I could not blame him. To remedy the situation, local adult leaders came up with a list of other projects that could be done. The scout contacted one of the beneficiaries and worked the project. The only reason the adult leaders made suggestions was because the scout was within two months of turning 18.