fred johnson

Fully agree.

Most do. But then again we are down to twenty scouts in our troop and they are the best of friends with each other. It is really much less about what grade they are in as much as how many of their friends are in scouting. The more close friends in scouting the more they do. Similarly, the more interesting things the troop does the more scouts participate.

You made me chuckle. I absolutely agree with you. "Boy led" is a truism. But I hate the "boy led" term. It's absolutely the right goal, but the term is almost always used to explain why one adult leaders troop is doing it right and why the other adult leaders troop is doing it wrong. As soon "boy led" is tossed out, the discussion is damaged, IMHO.

I changed my icon to balance Krampus'.

Actually, yes. If the scout met the "active" requirements before that worrisome two year window, then the scout had already completed the "active" requirement. It's not "is the scout currently active". It's whether the scout met the active requirement since the last rank advancement. BSA says yes, but your troop can define "reasonable" expectations. But is it reasonable to require the scribe, or historian or librarian to camp as part of their POR? Probably not. they can fulfill those requirements very well without camping. So, then you have extra SPL requirements where the SPL to be SPL will be doing more work than a scribe or historian or librarian, but he won't be "active" enough to advance. A smart scout would say screw it and go for the lower easier POR so he can advance. I really don't think defining extra "camping" expectations for some PORs will get scouts to camp more. Instead, I think it's misplaced focus that will drive scouts away. IMHO, this is all misplaced. You avoid "parlor scouts" by doing interesting things, promoting friendships between scouts and having scouting be the place they want to be. Solving "parlor scouts" with extra requirements is misplaced. "Parlor scouts" is not something to solve. Troop program is something to solve.

And, then elections occur and new scouts come in. Do they get to redecide it again? New scouts means new standards? It would make sense as current scouts should not be bound by decisions made be scouts who are not in the troop or not in leadership roles anymore. My experience is that scouts are getting lots of feedback ... mostly from adults ... and when scouts define what is expected it is almost always from a SM, ASM or a parent who has influenced the scout. And, it's usually the adults who care about the legalism of the "active" part.

Jackdaws ... Okay. My apologies for starting us down a bad path. I've seen several units switch to ScoutBook. It's benefits are that #1 you can load it from BSA advancement and roster records. It's draw backs is it's really poor with roster details (phone, address, parent linkage, etc) and poor with calendar entries. BUT, it's good with advancement. Record as much as as little as you want. It is a very tricky user interface, but if you learn the tricks, it does work. We've used http://www.scouttrack.com/and it works good, but it is old school and I would not start down that path. Personally, if I was pack advancement coordinator again (buying awards and recording them), I'd just tell den leaders to email me. As for keeping den leaders up to date or moving status between den leaders, it's a fairly moot thing. Each year is a different program and so the status is only within the last year. Plus, you can always download and print BSA's advancement report to show what the scouts have. Beyond that, den leaders should focus less on the legalism of the requirements and more on just providing a great experience for the scout.

I always found these discussions reflecting misplaced frustration. Putting up extra road blocks is the wrong mind set. BSA has expectations. Every ... EVERY ... rank has them. Whether through defining number of activities .. or number of camp outs .. or cooking meals ... or holding positions of responsibility. Instead of drawing another line in the stand, do the best job with the existing requirements. Expect scouts to do something with their positions of responsibility. And if you don't have time to help them or work with them, don't penalize them after the fact for not being their to deal with it in a timely way. My question about scouts earning Eagle after being less active for several years is did the scout hold the position of responsibility as expected for the expected time after earning Life? If the scout did, then the discussion is just a waste of time and probably more about current leaders being frustrated that a scout is earning Eagle that they personally did not work with much. That's the misplaced frustration. Current leaders feeling lessened by scouts they think are sneaking by.

Krampus ... If it works for you, good. Our troop doesn't think it's necessary. We used to keep a lot more data in TroopMaster but then we realized ... no one ever looked it. So, why keep it. Scouts are just as well off with printouts of BSA's ScoutNet records. As for scout advancement tracking in 3rd party systems, my frustration is with investing energy keeping detailed scout advancement records in systems that just don't matter. And worse, push extra work or annoyance back onto the scout.

Units have to rank advancements/MBs. They don't have to track it. BSA tracks it just fine. Just have a basic system to record newly earned MBs. Our guy has a box. All new merit badge cards go in the box. All earned ranks and other special items get written on a paper sheet in the box. Periodicaly, he signs into BSA's online advancement and enters it and prints the BSA shopping form. Units didn't have to track and report service hours. Best estimate is fine. Had 10 guys there for two hours. That's 20 hours. Scouting for food 20 hours. No need to record names and credit individuals. No need to cross check at BORs. Units didn't have to track and report training. District and council tracks advancement. Multiple sources can print official training reports from BSA / council records Units didn't have to track and manage health forms, medical conditions, etc. ... Got a three ring binder for that. It sits in a plastic tote.

LCMS discussions with Trail Life are also on-hold as it sounds like they hit a roadblock there too. The issue is really that if charter orgs care about the program their scout group puts forward, then the charter org needs to be more involved in the unit and select leaders that reflect their church or organization.

It really depends "WHAT" you want to track. If it is roster, contact info, scheduling, etc with nice spreadsheets and automated weekly newsletters, SOAR is the best solution I've seen by far. If it's advancement, it's then troopmaster or ScoutBook or a few others. It really depends what you want. I also like the post from another thread ... I fully agree with BLW2. A lot of this TroopMaster stuff is "MAKE WORK" and perverts the scouting experience. The best software is the pen in the back of the scout's handbook.

ScoutBook is not ready for prime time yet. It's close, but speed, scheduling and a few other issues are killers right now.

BLW2 is dead on right. I'm a tech guy professionally. And, I've helped many units over the years adopt software and/or solve issues. I'm fairly well experienced from many years of scouting. IMHO, advancement software like "TroopMaster" (and all the wanna bees) pervert the concepts of scouting. Absolutely they are make work tools. Best way to record scout advancement ... use the back of the scout handbook. Want to sign off the service hour requirement? Ask the scout "what have you done for service". Congratulate him about what a wonderful thing to do and then sign off. No 3rd party report needed. Even worse though, software such as TroopMaster and others ... IMHO ... actually makes the experience for the scout worse. I hope I never hear again someone making some type of announcement about making sure scouts submit their service hours so the hours are properly recorded and so that the scout gets credit for them. IMHO, the discussions with the scout should NEVER be about recording service hours so that reports are right and he gets his credit. It should ALWAYS be about doing service and helping others. It's a nuance, but I think it's a critical one. Yes on doing. No on paperwork. IMHO, I hope I never hear about scouts being asked to chase records and submit forms. Scouts should always be focused on doing things. Getting out. Learning. Having new experiences. Scouting is absolutely NOT a junior MBA program. Scouting is not a certification program. And, we don't need to track it like it is. ... ScoutBook is nice because we can download scout's BSA advancement and scouts get a colorful look at what BSA knows about them. It's a positive experience. As for the rest, blah. Drop the paperwork and go for a hike.

I strongly agree. Scout ownership. Fair. ... I've seen too often troops creating a balloting process, printing ballots and having an overly formal election, with lots of adult leader involvement. Our previous scoutmaster just had a box of position patches. As kids got elected / appointed, he'd open the box and hand them their new position patch and a handshake. ... IMHO, there should be a bit of ceremony such as at the the closing flag ceremony of the troop election night, thank the previous leaders and welcome the new leaders (handing them their new position patches too).

Okay. I thought I heard all the issues ... at least in our pack. Well, the new one is the elementary school has been emphasizing how much kids should sleep and the appropriate bed time. Our pack meets from 6:30pm (gathering games) to 8pm. Well the Lion (K) and tigers (1st grade) are supposed to go to bed before our pack meeting is done. People on this forum know that I think the younger grades lower the maturity of the pack just too much. ... but ... this is a new twist. ... not to mention we've had several parents who say probably rightfully so that their kids are not ready for Cub Scouts in kindergarten or 1st grade. Between bed time and maturity, it affects our getting critical mass at those ages. Argh.

That's a huge sale incentive. And, seeing what the scout "could" do. I know several parents that avoiding any solution until we had it. Now they periodically peak. The big negative is the system is still very immature, inefficient, slow and putzy to use. Hopefully, that improves over the next year or two. Not to mention a few more "reports" is a minimum expectation.

Coin collecting is an interesting example. I'd fully expect that a MBC for coin collecting would bring some coins. Bring some valuation books. Bring some guides on how to grade coins. Bring interest and excitement to the topic. There are merit badges I could council as an expert ... and ... my expertise and the resources I've acquired over the years as part of becoming an expert would allow me to extremely quickly do an interesting MB experience. There are others because I know well, but I would really have to work hard for me to add value to the MBC experience. For those I know but I not an expert, I would not be adding much value except signing off requirements.

You've chosen a generally demonic icon to represent yourself to a group where goodwill, friendship and positive values are the goal. It's like Facebook pictures of people flipping the bird.

Agreed, but most requirements are extremely subjective. "Discuss", "Explain", "show" are all subjective and based on the age / level / capability / situation of the scout. Non-subjective is "earn $10 and save $5". Subjective is earn money and save half. I would expect a 17 year old scout to earn and save more than an eleven year old. And if the 17 year old is working, I would expect more.

I must have missed your post originally. Every badge is different to some degree. Swimming is one of those badges there it is not too necessary to demonstrate as most kids learn to swim before taking the badge. So scouts get the badge for something they can generally do before they approach the counselor. But if the scout wants to learn the skill as part of earning the badge, then it really really helps and is almost expected that the MBC will be in the water. Otherwise, it's a check-in with the MBC, now go find another way to learn it and report back. ... but .. the whole point was to have the MBC as a mentor for the badge.

Agreed. ... I am just frustrated with MBCs that really have no topical knowledge, interest or drive. It produces lame experiences. Essentially, it's the situation where one person says "WE A MBC for XXXX" and someone volunteers. Well, if they are just a warm body acting as a MBC and not bringing anything to the table as an MBC, they should not be volunteering.

I am so sorry. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

MB are generally introductory. But that's a different topic. I am just raising the topic of lame MB experiences.

Per BSA from http://www.scouting....selorGuide.aspx ... "As a merit badge counselor, your mission is to join fun with learning. You are both a teacher and mentor as the Scout works on a merit badge and learns by doing. Your hands-on involvement could inspire a Scout to develop a lifelong hobby, pursue a particular career, or become an independent, self-supporting adult." [Emphasis added] Scouting is active. The swimming MBC should be in the water with the scout. The astronomy MBC should be up late viewing the stars with the scout. The chess MBC should play chess with the scout. The horseback MBC should ride a horse with the scout. ... or similar to accomodate the situation. If the MBC's only job is to check progress, sign-off and/or be a resource when the scout is stuck, then the whole MB program is pretty lame and fairly worthless. I strongly disagree. The MB program is a journey done together as a partnership between the scout and the counselor / mentor / teacher. ... if nothing else, think of it as EDGE. Perhaps a confusion is with the long-term badges (personal fitness, personal mgmt, family life, communications, etc). For example personal fitness, ... YES .. I believe the MBC should do some exercises with the scout (push ups, run laps, sit ups, etc). Now if a requirement is do 12 weeks of exercise, yes of course it's the scout's job to do the 12 weeks and report back. But I'd fully expect the MBC to use EDGE which includes doing some sit ups, push ups and running some laps at least to get the scout started down the right path. If the Personal Fitness MBC counselor does it all sitting down, then it's a pretty lame experience.