fred johnson

I'm confused. I did not see the data from the other thread. You are not the scoutmaster. You and your son are new to the troop. And you are yelling at the scouts, trying to organize patrol meetings and/or patrol camp outs? On what basis is that being done? IMHO, parents need to work through the scoutmaster and/or committee chair. It's worse than adult led if the adults are not on the same page.

CherokeeScouter - Take this to the council registrar or director of advancement. I'd also copy the district advancement chair, but I'd take this up a level immediately as you need to get it in the hands of someone who's going to have more decision making with the issue. IMHO, on this board, you'll get lots of information and both sides of the story ... but you won't get an answer. Good luck. As for my own opinion ... if the scout was registered by BSA, he was registered. Should he have been? Probably not. But they accepted money, processed the registration, processed advancement, etc. IMHO, it's water over the dam and now how do we deal the best with the current rank. But you need to also make sure his advancement record is clean enough for national to handle if he earns Eagle.

The situation is what it is. Treat it just as any other Life BOR. Did the scout have time in rank, volunteer hours, POR, MBs and etc to earn Life? I would not read more into it. I like #1. It gets everyone onto the same page to help resolve things. It averts issues if there are any. It might help your troop leaders get on the same page too. I'd avoid #2. Star rank is done and awarded. Your job is to focus on the Life requirements. Confirm this with the council and then just move on. Focus on the scout having positive and growing experiences.

Wow. I agree with Krampus for once. Bad sign-offs means focus on fixing who's signing off. IMHO, this is why I prefer troops with just a few ASMs. It's hard to keep just a few people (SM and a few ASMs) on the same page. Troops with 10+ or 20+ or 30+ ASMs are just all over the map.

We have a similar situation with our summer camp. But unlike Webelos and Cub Scouts where we that report is pretty much accepted as it's done, that report is only informational in our troop. Scouts sit with higher rank scouts (preferred) or an ASM who confirms they learned what they are supposed to learn. Call it a test or a demonstrate what you learned. That's when their books get signed off in our troop. And to be honest, I've never seen summer camp staff ever approach signing off on a scout's book.

Read the Guide To Advancement .... It's the only way to find the BSA answer and the answer that the scouts expect per what they will find in their Boy Scout Handbook. Too many people have it wrong and are too insistent that their way is right even though it will directly conflict what is documented. Read the Guide To Advancement. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf A few key comments ... - SMC is a friendly conversation. It's not a test. It's not pass or fail. It can be 5 minutes or 30 minutes. It's a conversation. Read pages 122-123 in the Scoutmaster Handbook. I know it has been updated this year and republished, but the methods are the same. http://www.bsa888.com/files/troop_888/Documents/Books%20and%20Guides/ScoutmastersHandbook2of3%20sm.pdf. - Signing off requirements .... If you want to reserve signing off on "requirements" to be done by the SM at the SMC, that's your choice. But it's hard for the scout to know when to request advancement when things do not get progressively signed off. The only one our SM reserves for the SMC is "scout spirit". But even then that could be signed off when the time requirement is met. ... But ... if requirements are signed off in his book, it's a done deal. Move on. If the scouts are not really learning the skills or the item, then improve on the sign-off. But don't grow the SMC beyond a friendly conversation to take care of the poor or inappropriately signed off requirements. - How long to wait for SMC or BOR? Ideally, it's the same night as the request. If not then (and it can happen), then as soon as possible after that. Larger troops can assign SMC to ASMs if necessary. But if a scout wants to advance, support him. If SM doesn't have time to talk with the scout, that more reflects on the SM doing too much. - Scheduling a BOR ... This is the one that gets me. I'm slow to respond right now as I'm looking up the BSA source. But the idea is that once the scout finishes the SMC, the ideal is the scoutmaster sets up the BOR. It's not the scout's responsibility to request a BOR after the SMC. It's the Scoutmaster's job to get it setup. I'm looking for the BSA reference on that.

Mr Ed T24 ... More comments to come but ... SMC does not have to be the last step. It's just a conversation. Five minutes to 30 minutes. What ever the conversation is and you and he want to discuss. It's not about completing or reviewing requirements.

What I meant is that by doing things and having adventures, certain scouts begin to stand out and learn the confidence to call others out on things or to inspire the group to do more or to get going or to move forward. The "management" of the activity is the easy part. Getting kids to stand up with strong character, do more than originally planned, helping each other and lifting the group to the next performance level. One of the proudest moments recently is when I was guiding / helping a few new scouts of another troop who were struggling at a district camp out. The SPL from our troop popped over to let us know the troop was setup and asked if there was anything else right they could do. I asked if he could find a couple of older scouts to help out these new scouts. He grabbed a few more older scouts and helped these younger scouts and few others ... not even scouts from our troop. Without him there to break the inertia of being done, I don't think the older scouts would have reached out to help these guys. IMHO, it's very much like some of the comments I took time to read above. Leadership reflects authority that is given by those below. Management is authority granted from above. That SPL had earned his reputation and respect from the other older scouts. When he said they'd help, the other scouts followed without argument. We had another SPL like that. Very well respected and when he spoke, others followed. No threats or warnings. The scouts liked and respected him.

Good article. Nice and simple. How it should be.

Pot luck full meal before awards. Our troop COHs are always a calendar highlight. Celebrating achievements. Listening and laughing as the scouts tell stories. ... who left who's tent unzipped in a down pour; who forgot to buy food for Sunday breakfast, etc. Oct/Nov COH - Pot luck full meal Feb COH - Pot luck full meal May COH - Pot luck full meal ... twist ... Troop buys the meat. Usually grilling burgers and hot dogs. Sometimes slopulled pork and other. Aug COH - Everyone brings their own food. Eagle COH - Fully up to the family ... BUT ... we don't have many anymore. Most Eagle ranks are now awarded at the end of a normal COH. We like it this way as all the troop is there. I've seen too many Eagle COH's where there are three or four scouts from the troop there and that's it. If Eagle is presented at normal COH, the Eagle family kicks in extra food to cover the extra guests at the COH. Longer COH, but scouts are happy because the food is better. The nice thing is the meals are always dynamic. Sometimes you get lots of noodles. Sometimes lots of salad. Sometimes lean. Sometimes way too much. It really depends on the PLC planning, the scouts and how they coordinate with their family. ... There is something about sharing a meal that brings people together.

POR jobs report to SM ... yeah ... agreed. Food at COH ... nit picking ... usually it's the moms who bring a pot luck dish. IMHO, this is a learning path. Recently our older scouts started texting each other and we find food mysteriously showing up at troop meetings. One kid brings plates. Another cup cakes. Another mountain dew. SM and I just smile. So what if parents bring food to COH. ... SCOUTS MIMIC BEHAVIOR THEY SEE. IMHO, that's the best way for us to teach. We demonstrate behaviors we want the scouts to learn. ... It's sort of fun to see them now doing their own activities. Emails ... in our troop ... emails are for parents. Kids don't really read emails. They text and they text a lot if your troop is active. Parents want to know what's going on. I'd rather be sending them email to keep them up to date then to have them nag their kid about the details. IMHO, you see "adult led" in the program structure, the activities and how the scouts behave. - Forms ... PLC scouts carrying forms around to track their POR. Food planning forms. Equipment planning forms. Patrol schedule forms. Troop schedule forms. Forms about planning. Forms about planning to plan. - How the troop is structured? Does it really look like how scouts would want to structure themselves? Or did "adults" convince scouts it's the best and scouts are repeating what they were convinced was right. ... even though it's probably not how the scouts would choose to spend their time themselves. - What are the activities? are they things the scouts would enjoy? Odds are if they are, the adults are listening to the scouts and letting the scouts drive the program. - Are the scouts having fun? - Most importantly, when you look at the troop ... do you see scouts with scouts ... or do you see scouts with adults mixed in. Scouts need time together to form bonds of friendship, to storm, to norm and to learn to perform together. IMHO, that's the best indication of boy led. .... And to be honest, the whole "boy led" diatribe is more about adults comparing who's troop is doing it right and knocking the other guy's troop or the other scout leaders. It has very little practical to communicate about helping the scouts. I really would not mind never ever again hearing the term boy led.

Maybe. And depending on the SPL. And depending on the nature of the committee. But as a rule of thumb, I think it is best if it is limited to the SPL reporting the PLC and troop plans and needs. The only person questioning him should be the scoutmaster. Beyond that, I've seen too many adults that do way more damage interacting with scouts than they do good.

Too long a chain to read everything. But I agree with the original post. I think we need to create leaders who inspire the scouts to be better, achieve more and do more. I've had my fill of MBA forms based scouting and worksheet merit badges. At this point, I've reverted into thinking scouting is a very simple program. Get out and have adventures. Maybe it's a canoe trip or a simple hike to a fire tower. By doing interesting things and our offering friendly coaching, support and a smile, the scouts will develop leadership as a natural part of completing the adventures.

Any update? Beyond just one or two, has anyone seen anything close to regular use of electronic interactive merit badges? I've yet to hear anyone buy a single one.

As with all things, helping it run smooth is simple coaching and friendly questioning. "How did that work for you?" ... "What's your plan?" ... "What do you need to do next?" As with structuring patrols, let them choose. And by "them", I mean the individual scouts. Let them choose which patrols they will be in. My experience is this is how it works best. Scoutmaster or SPL assigning patrols just does not get ownership of the patrols. Scout need to want to be with their patrol. The only effective way is to let them choose. If you end up with a patrol of 10 year olds, fine. You do the same as any other situation. Coach and mentor.

Agreed ... except so so often these errors are willfully created to make the program better. Training won't correct that.

We've had both. Both fail in different ways. We prefer the standard version. But key to both is getting a protective cover. zip lock back is great. BSA velcro protective cover is great too. ... personally ... I dislike the spiral bound as it does not fit on book shelves, the spirals bend and get yucky, pages tear, etc. But that's my experience.

Context ... Questions like these need always be placed in context. "Who's the top leader?" ... depends on what you are trying to get at. IMHO ... Handbook says that because the troop is the boys. The handbook is for the boys. The adults support the troop but are supporting members. We want the boys to think of the troop as the boys and not including the adults.

I've been through this whole thing and the discussion way too many times. If it were up to me, adults don't choose the patrols ever. SPL and PLC doesn't choose the patrols ... ever. It's up to the scouts to choose who they want to spend time with. And that's the key. Patrols are groups that will do things together. Forcing a social mix doesn't work. IMHO, it's even best when the 17 year old scouts that are down to two or three in their patrol are left to be. Let them have their patrol. Let them love their patrol name that they have had since they were 11 years old. IMHO, it's the only way. Scouts have to have ownership of their patrols. Mixing them up or assigning them just causes problems.

I think that would be an important change. A "triage" of how the units are going, where the fires are and who needs and/or wants help. No need to waste names assigned to units. No need to burn units by assigning UCs that never show up. Create a structure that continually reviews the health of the units. That would be a small but meaningful improvement.

A few random thoughts ... - BSA training is introductory at best. Maybe Woodbadge has more depth. Otherwise, comments about who is trained really just reflect who cared enough to take the first step in learning about scouting. Beyond that, it takes years to understand how to make it work. And then, you realize just how simple a program scouting really is. - Unit commissioners are the unicorns of scouting. Wonderful magical fairy-tail creatures that are proclaimed and counted, but never seen. IMHO, it's a fundamental part of scouting that is broken. - An Eagle scout has zero experience to be qualified as a unit commissioner. The scout side is different than the adult side. UCs have to learn how to deal with adult agendas such as dealing with the self-interest of leaders who are also parents of the scouts. - IMHO, the UC is one of several BSA core components that are fundamentally broken and I just don't see how you can fix it. Period. It needs a new vision.

BSA Ealge scout pocket knife. Council buys the patch, medal, mentor pin, etc.

Been involved with many troops over the years. Never heard that one. Usually sometime before or after the scout earns his first badge, he acquires a sash. IMHO, I'd like the troop to present the sash to the scout with his first merit badge. Only reason we don't is cost. Personally, I think it would be a nice way to encourage earning more merit badges.

IMHO, it's your son's choice. With that said, our troop and scout tend to prefer ECOH's at troop courts of honor. We do four COH per year as I'd hope most troops do. So it's never really that long of a wait. Plus, ... for our troop ... every COH is a meal. So the food is better when an eagle rank is presented as the Eagle parents always kick in extra good food for their invited guests. Finally, ... and most important ... I've been to many courts of honor where there are just not many scouts from the troop present. Often, there are conflicts and the older scouts have aged out and new scouts don't really know the Eagle scouts that well. So when there is an extra event and it's an ECHOR and the other scouts are not involved ... attendance is often poor. I've seen this with many, many troops. If you only attended ECOH, you'd think most troops have five or six scouts. So ... along the final lines ... if your son has a separate event .. will the troop leaders support him? Will he have similar good turn out from the other scouts? Or will some just not attend as it runs afoul of troop traditions? ... it happens ...

I envy you. Wish it was that way here too.