fred johnson

@@BadenP .... I see now what you are saying. But it's not really a BSA thing. All BSA can do is step out of the battle of the day. This is a larger society issue. The US Constitution protects religious freedoms, but laws prevent discrimination. So, it's really the US government that shields churches so they can pick and choose, but businesses and public organizations can't. Society is filled with ugly contradictions.

@@BadenP - How is this restricted to religious CO's? Non-religious CO's (PTOs, community groups, businesses) also now can have leaders they select. But just as with hiring, they can't discriminate. If you want leaders reflecting your personal faith and that is important to you, then find a scouting unit sponsored by a church.

Leaders sing, sometimes read poetry and often treat Eagles as royalty. In that, scout leaders perform a "minstrel" role. ... But that's not important right now. A "ministerial role" seems without question. Churches run scouting programs to teach values during formative years. These values include "Duty To God". Even if they didn't, it is a ministerial role same as ministering to the sick, homeless or the poor. The unit leaders may not be "ordained" ministers, but that is not a requirement to be a ministerial role. Sunday school teachers are often not ordained. Private school teachers are not formally ordained but can be selected and put in positions that include "ministerial" duty references. I doubt few churches would care to go this far, but it would be relatively easy to establish and defend.

I agree. I would not be proud or happy if either happened. But for BSA to hold together, we need BSA administering the program and charter organizations administering the membership and leadership.

@@moosetracker ... Whose staunch republican politicians ? You have no clue. Get past righteous indignation and writing diatribes and stop trying to find the bad guy. We live in a pluralistic society and our policies need to reflect and support that. It means people believe different things and we need to find a way to live together. That's the whole point of a "ministerial role". It's leading a life that reflects the teachings of the organization. To be a minister in the church, churches may or may not require you to be a member of the faith, but they can rightfully expect that you believe in what they teach. How you lead your life is a strong reflection of your beliefs. I am sure the vast majority of churches will be as you said, show respect and courtesy while you are there serving as a scout leader. But some churches can and will expect certain boundaries not be crossed. This policy is not about "crucifying" people or "damming them to hell". This policy is about scouting providing a consistent program to millions where the charter organizations teach different things and the members believe different things. We've got to find a way to work together otherwise our own irrationality will dam a great youth organization to hell.

@@moosetracker ... Ummm.... I think this is exactly what the "local option" policy (which I think is a good idea and the only option) enables. You correctly used the term "churches youth organization". As a youth organization of the church, the scout leaders play a ministerial role within the church. As such, churches are protected and can pick and choose leaders who's private life matches the church teachings. The church can't remove the leader from BSA membership, but the church can remove the leader from their scouting unit.

We often accept the summer camp rules, procedures and emergency drill for this requirement. Scouting requirements are best when they are real and usable. Summer camp emergency procedures get used regularly for bad weather or missing scouts. We've used them and will again and in some really bad conditions. IMHO, it's a great way to fulfill the requirement.

This is a minor mismatch in communication. You asked X wanting to get at Y. He answered X without letting you know about Z. He did show leadership in the act of teaching the knots. You wanted to talk about leadership as the initiative to help the new scouts. There was a mismatch in communication. Now, the scout did not help you clear that up, but it wasn't a lie. It takes a certain maturity to discuss your own faults and errors and past mistakes in a constructive way. ... and the scout blew it. The best solution is let the scoutmaster know and let him deal with it. SM could bring it up in a relaxed way so that the scout knows the scout did not trick anyone and the "details" were learned. It's a good life lesson for the scout. "Details" will come out. You might as well bring them up yourself instead of having others find out about it.

Fully 100% agree.

When I hear UUA, I keep thinking all star wrestling. Sorry. Just really tired right now.

You say religious discrimination. I say religious freedom. Let's call the whole thing off.

You are right the USSC won't rule against religion. But, the USSC does often redefine the issue. Read the "Held" in the 1984 Roberts v Jaycees decision. Jaycees reference both God and men in the creed, but USSC believed USSC could decide membership policy changes without abridging freedom of association. And, USSC had many reasons including the "compelling interest in eradicating discrimination". There is also the USSC Boy's Club case where it ruled since Boy's Club accepts all boys it was effectively a "public club" and must accept girls too. And thus because Boys and Girls Club of America. All the USSC had to do in 1999 Dale v BSA was to decide BSA was a public organization ... which seems very easy to achieve since BSA boasts of having a congressional charter ... and many units were chartered by elementary schools or PTOs or other public organizations. It seems the BSA case was decided more based on a long history of good will and the desired result at that time. 1999 Dale v BSA does not add to a long history of consistent case law. There is continual flip flop on which factor is most important. Anti-discrimination. Freedom of religion. Freedom of association.

In my view, this is a good move by BSA. BSA provides a program that organizations can use to provide a meaningful program for kids. BSA brings the program. Organizations bring the facilities, membership and leadership. We are a diverse nation. It is unreal for BSA to ask organizations to run a program but run it with values different than their own. This allows BSA to recognize and work in a nation of diverse beliefs. My only fear though is if some new case ever reaches the US Supreme Court. Though I agree with the end result of "most" (not all) of the recent decisions, the justification often seems pushed to the limit to reach a "desired conclusion". In another words, I believe today's court would decide the 1999 BSA v. Dale case differently. Less based on written law and more based on "desired outcome".

Even if the court did find against a church, all the church would have to do is state the scout group is part of their youth ministry program to the community ... which is the truth. Same as considering private school teachers part of the ministry program of a church allows for selective hiring and employment conditions.

My uniform gets washed too often. I've already lost other pins that don't get removed and put back on.

I've seen some things like this. IMHO, it's the adult leaders job to quickly step in to protect our scouts from adult behavior. Sometimes the situations are not fixable. This sounds like the one where the mom and her family need to look for another troop. But I'd have to be there and know the situation.

A challenge with Facebook is planning and publishing a nice clean calendar for the year. SOAR does that great. We use "Facebook" for pictures, promotion and social media. Period. We manage events in SOAR. You are right. Fewer sign up than if it was in Facebook.

Combine the bishop asking, "magnifnifying our callings" and the macho'ism of being a man, I'd imagine it would be hard to say no. Saying no is somewhat saying your bishop is wrong, saying you're not following a tenant of your faith and denying the macho-ism every guy has. So, I can easily see many leaders getting boxed in and not doing a great job. But that can happen inside and outside LDS units. Just a different path.

Oath and law. We communicate expectations, but we don't represent it as a "contract".

You hit the nail on the head. It is a key difference between LDS and non-LDS units. Effectively in LDS units, the bishop says "you're the new scout leader." Maybe some choice, but generally you are expected to step up to the appointment. In non-LDS units, the volunteers choose to step up. It becomes a hobby and a passion. You might get lucky in an LDS unit where the appointed leader makes it his hobby too. But if the man is busy with wife, kids, business, etc and then the bishop appoints him a scout leader, then I'd imagine the troop will have some issues. PS - All scout volunteers I know work, have family and many outside commitments.

Same thing happens with the title "Scoutmaster". Titles rarely reflect ability or knowledge. ... and ... ummm ... Lee lost.

Christineka - Scouting attracts and develops leaders with hard heads, strong opinions and personal agendas. There are many reasons. Volunteer develop ownership and defending how they do it. ... AND ... the nature of program itself attracts "quaint" attitudes. Ignore all the side comments if you can. Do your best Taylor Swift impersonation and Shake It Off. The requirements are the requirements. If the scout completes them, he is just as much an Eagle scout if he is 12 or 17. If your son is driven, great. Don't hold him back. Support him as he drives his advancement. Sort of like buying a car. It's the same car whether you pay $2000 under sticker or $2000 over sticker. ... Capabilities and experience is a different issue. ... but that's not the topic of this thread ... this thread is about the camping requirement. My suggestion ... read the words precisely on the requirement. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/MeritBadges/mb-CAMP.aspx Note the words point out only one long-term camp out counts. Also note the star ... " *All campouts since becoming a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout may count toward this requirement." ... Doesn't matter if he is 10, 11, 12, or So. As long as he is a Boy Scout, he's good ... and probably good for Varsity or Venture scout too.

Agreed. It seems like a futurist vision to promote the company. As for now though, we have digital merit badge books being rolled out with rich interactive content. We have ScoutBook that has scouts posting when they have completed a requirement and adults (other scouts?) that are able to sign off. I don't see though the end-to-end online advancement and "badging". I will say this ... I've taken several courses through college where major content was online. Those courses drilled the knowledge extremely well. One was a business accounting courses that taught GAAP and basic double entry book keeping. I think those online tools were sensational in teaching the laws and rules precisely and in-depth.

I disagree. Our job is to run a good troop program and to provide as rich and complete of a scouting experience to each and every scout as possible. If we get more scouts, great. If not, so be it. Even when we don't get any new scouts, it's still our job to provide as great of an experience as possible. Just after that, I'd argue our next priority is to support our brother pack, our charter organization and the community. Along with other supporting any other pack too. IMHO, the best troops do not overly emphasize recruitment. I say this as our city has many troops and they have each up'ed their recruitment game each year for fewer and fewer cub scouts. It creates stress. At the same time, a new troop was created under a major church. They are drawing many of the cross overs. At this point, I want to make sure each and every of our 20 scouts has a great experience. If we get more, great. If not, fine. If we are 50 scouts or 15 scouts it doesn't matter. If the scouts want to camp, we need to help them run a camping program. If they want to socialize, we help them socialize. If merit badges, we provide opportunities. If they want to become Eagle, then we help them advance. AND ... in each and every thing we do, we look for small friendly lessons to teach and we try to be the examples we want them to become. ---------------------------------------------------- My job is to support our scouts and provide as great of an experience as possible.

The wording on the requirement is the best guidance. "at a designated Scouting activity or event". Does not need to be with his troop. So, have you son ask other troops if he can camp with them at some camp outs. Camp at summer camp with a lone-star scout troop, i.e. made up of other scouts that can't go with their own troop for some reason. Go to the district camporee and camp there. Look for any and every special opportunity to camp at scouting events and/or activities. ... Essentially, even if your troop does not camp enough, look for every opportunity to camp that you can find. My only recommendation is that your son talk with his scoutmaster about what he plans to do to complete the requirement. Even though the scoutmaster really has nothing to do with the merit badge program, the SM can make life difficult. Likewise, the scoutmaster can be a non-issue if you keep him included in the plans.