Eagledad

It really depends on the program and even on the personalities of the scouts. We didn't seem to have scouts Eagle in groups, but we had several scouts who waited almost a year so they could have the COH together, my son included. I can see this happenging with new troops because adults new to scouting tend to follow the advancement part of the program pretty close until they start to learn and understand the other seven methods because advancement is the easiest to do when you don't really know what you are doing. That first group of Webelos will likely Eagle pretty close to each other. Barry

Personally I dont see this as more adult led dynamics moving into the boys program. In fact, I almost think it was created to prevent that. But I do feel that it wont help the boy run dynamics because it keeps the parents just a little to close. Our troop was rather large and when we saw the adults closing in on the boys just to be part of the program, we assigned a couple of JASMs to lead the new adult patrol. The JASMs would pull the adults together at all the troop meetings and campouts to brief them on the PLC meeting (we have one every week) and organize the adults for the next campout or activity. The objective from the SM was to keep the program boy run and to help the adults stay in a boy run frame of mind. It worked pretty well. It was a good experience for both the JASMs and the adults. What I think is wrong with the Parent Coordinator idea is that it takes the SM away from the responsibility of personally guiding the adults and continually guiding them on the program philosophy. I found that adults work best in boy run programs when the SM continually teaches and guides adults to how the program works. I see a few up and coming Scoutmasters developing that technique here on the Scouter forums. Everyone will say that the Scoutmaster should spend all their time with the boys. In reality the boys do just fine when the adults get out of the way. I have said many times here that I learned that 50% of the scoutmasters time should be teaching and guiding the adults on the boy run program. It keeps the adults out of the way of the boys and it solidifies the program philosophy into the whole of the troop, not just the ASM circle. But, our culture is changing faster than I can keep up. I wouldnt be surprised if the scouts start doing their PLC meetings with text messaging. Barry

>>These kinds of decisions, and changes to policy, aren't generally made in a vacuum or on a whim.

>>If the Scoutmaster is being "secretive" you can expect many more situations like this one. Open and honest communication is one of the most necessary skills of a useful leader.

>>No deaths I know of, nor has the ceremony been reduced to reading names from a list.

Sounds like a great trip. The Brazos river in central Texas is the closest river I can think of that will fit your needs. I can't help you with an outfitter, but I know there are several on the river. Barry

>>If that were the case, PeteM, the entire ordeal would have been changed.

This was an honor we save for the Webelos IIs in our pack. They are the leaders and instructors for all the other ages in pack meetings, but it is their thing for special events. Barry

First of all, how do you define hazing to the scouts? I think that is a very important question and one that should be answered in one sentence so the scouts have a clear understanding of it. One of the problems I see with adults today is they don't really understand a good definition and end up classifying just about any act that offends them under hazing. I once saw a leader jump on the camp staff for singing happy birthday to a scout that wasn't even in her unit. She didn't know the scout and didn't even ask him how he felt about being sung to, she just called it hazing. Why, because to her being singled out in anything is hazing. We define hazing for our scouts as: when a person is forced to participate in something they dont want to participate in. Under that definition, there isnt a list of actions that are classified as hazing; it is instead the person feelings toward your actions that are taken into account. The BSA suggests that holding a Cub Scout up-side-down while getting his Bobcat is hazing. Yet, I have never met a boy who didn't want to receive his badge in that manner. Personally I think the BSA has only added to the confusion of hazing. It would have been much less controversial and more reasonable to just state that holding a boy up-side-down is not permitted because the risks of permanent physical harm to the Scout. We want scouts to practice serving others by using the scout law and oath and not by someone elses list of things they can and cannot do. There is no list of hazing in the scout law, just the promise to serve others by being friendly, courteous and kind. If the person doesnt feel you are being friendly, courteous and kind, then the scout must consider their actions toward that person and stop, whatever that action is. Practice a definition that doesnt define specific actions, but instead reacting to the feelings of the other person. Teach scouts to take ownership of the well being of others. Encourage them to practice being servants. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hi All The tiger program is all about the parent. To have a successful program, you need to cater to their needs. The packs that have the hardest times with tigers are typically the ones that put the most demands on the parents. More meetings means more demands. I know that we say it is all about the boys, and it is. But Tigers requires the parents and a lot of adult volunteer time. If the program is too demanding, the parents will not come. If the parents dont come, the boys cant come. However, the good news is that if you have the family in the program for the first year, you will have them at least through bears. Ignoring the tiger year, it is very important to understand that we lose more Cub Scouts do to leader burn out than any other reason. The Cub program is five long years and on average you will only get at best 2.5 years from your volunteers. We didnt ask much of our Tiger parents because we were saving their time for the last four years. I know, that still leaves the WEbelos years and that is another discussion. But, we viewed Tigers as more of sit back, relax, and watch and learn the program. We asked for only two outings month to keep the demands lower. One was a fun go and set it intended to get the group to bond. The other was anything they wanted, but typically it was the pack meeting. Of course they came to all the fun stuff like pinewood derby and roller skating parties. We asked each parent to do the calling of their group for one month so that they could get to know the other parents. We also had a Tiger coach to watch the dens making sure they were doing OK and to keep information flowing in both directions between the pack and the tiger families. As a result of our program, we went from 30 to 50% cross over to wolves to 95%. Our pack had to share the recruiting from the same school, which meant we started with equal number of Tigers each year. So we got to watch a side by side comparison of two different approaches with the tigers. The other pack had meetings every week. They were happy crossing over only 40% of their Tigers. Listen to the Tiger parents. They are the ones you have to satisfy. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I took one on all my campouts and treks except Philmont. It was the first thing I put up after we set up camp on our treks. It sets up fast enough to use during a long break on a hike or canoe trip if you want to take a quick nap. Sometime just getting off the ground is a relief. They are very comfortable and usually the envy of the rest of the group. The tarp works great in rain and anything else that falls out of tree. I didn't sleep in it at night where we had heavy mosquitoes. It was kind of the adult gettaway place at summer camp for naps and reading books, but I even let curious scouts lay in it. Look for survival hammocks that are made of fish netting. Very strong and very light. I think around $30. Rolls up to about the size of a softball. Try it to see if you like it. Barry

OK, here is one way I would consider approaching your problem. Find all the documentation in the BSA Handbooks that refers to how the BSA recommends the SM and troop should perform in this situation. Then, as the SM, call an adult meeting and teach everyone how the BSA suggest the SM perform in this area of the program by reading out of the SM Handbook and whatever else you need to reference . Once youve finished reading the text, explain to the group your concerns and the problems you have seen. At that point, tell everyone that the troop adults as a whole will go through SM Specific training on a date you just set with the District. And then after the training, you will hold another meeting to discuss how the troop should perform SM Conferences. I would invite the Unit Commissioner, the District Commissioner, the District Training Chairman and the District Executive so that you have some weight behind you. They are trained to stay quiet in these things, but its hard for folks to turn you down when they are there. I wouldnt allow a discussion on the subject; instead explain that if the troop is going to be so diverse from the BSA program, then they can at least go through this training together. Once they get trained, then they can express their view on the subject. Program Quality is number one with you and you feel training as a group is important. Have a training date ready with the District Training Chairman so that you are basically announcing the date and anyone who wants to have input on the subject needs to go through this training. This is going to take some courage on your part, but as BW said, you have a much bigger problem and you need to find a wedge to get your SM authority started into the long standing traditions of you troop. At 18 months, you have enough time to express concern. Dont give the group options, announce to all the adults in the troop that you are going to have a SM meeting for all the adults. And start a tradition of these meeting twice a year. Hope that helps. I know this is frustrating. You are in a tough position and its going to require to pull from parts of you that you did know you had. Oh, and remind them that you love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>This sounds like a mid-trek Philmont moment. Scouts are tired, irritable and some strange dynamics start happening.

>>How do you get all the info out and avoid announcements at Pack events?

Strange, I didn't realize I put OA down. So lets just say that if a program is run the MOS program, we would have twice the scouts. Our OA programs in this area struggle a lot. If we would learn from the MOS, "and I guess your OA program as well", it would be a boost for our scouting program. Barry

There isnt really a default role to follow. It really depends on the adults. Allow me to give a few facts I learned that might help you on this question First, let me set this basic premise: Meetings should no longer than an hour, and the goal should really be 50 minutes. The whole family is more likely to go watch big brother in short meetings because the sibling can be controlled for about 50 minutes. If the meetings are long, them typically one parent will stay home to baby sit. You want a Pack Meeting to be a family event. So with that in mind: 1. Add at least 5 minutes for every additional person who gets up in front of the group. 2. Scouts loose interest in 30 seconds if the subject is not fun. 3. It takes at least 1 minute to get the scouts focus back. 4. Announcements average 15 minutes. 5. Boys HATE announcements. 6. Pack meetings should be planned as 100% fun and entertainment. No boring business. If the Cubmaster is a good entertainer, then they should do as much as the meeting as possible to keep it going. If not, then the Cubmaster can take more of the circus announcer role and introduce entertaining adults to lead each part of the meeting. Understanding of course of adding 5 minutes to the meeting for each adult. One example is I eventually learned to be a pretty good entertainer, but was a lousy singer. So when it was time for a song, I brought up a fun song leader. After the song, that adult was gone and I was running the meeting again. Part of the reason you add at least 5 minutes for each additional person who gets up in front of the meeting is the amount of time it takes just to get on stage. As I said, you lost the boys after 30 seconds, so if it takes Wolf Den 3 a minute to set up for a skit, you have lost all the other scouts and are loosing control of the meeting. The Den 3 leader will likely need another minute just to quiet down the group so they can start their skit. The way to help that problem is give every person on the agenda a copy of the meeting agenda so they know when their time is in the meeting and ask them to be ready by the stage so they can walk right on. Your goal is no pauses between changes. That works well for adults who can start right into job like leading a song or telling a story or even annoucements. But, for those dens that need a minute to set up, that is when the Cubmaster or entertaining adult pulls out the joke book and keeps the boys focused. Or what ever, but dont allow the scouts to loose focus because it takes a least a minute to get that focus back. One last thing. If it is not fun for the scouts, take it out of the program. Which leads me to ANNOUNCEMENTS ARE NOT FUN. We created a Pack news letter purely for this reason. If you have to make an announcement, make it fun. Or, use an announcement to have fun. Example is the Cubmaster coming out on rollerblades to announce the annual roller skating party next month. Or a quick skit with Tim the Tool Man coming out with a chain saw and a pinewood derby car to talk about the Pinewood Derby. I hope this was a little clearer than mud. Only bring up adults that can keep the interest of the scouts. Do as few changes as possible to keep the meeting rolling. Keep the meeting short so families look forward to the meetings. Sorry this was long. Have a great scouting week. Barry

>>I'll simply say: - There's a reason the Missouri Councils are near the top of the National list on Eagles earned, religious awards earned, and youth camped per season. - There's a reason youth attend resident camp for 5-6 years running ... in addition to doing HA or staff work, plus their other interests.

I've not heard of any camps that function well with both styles of providing meals. Both methods are demanding in there own way, so providing both methods requires pretty good logistics. I'm sure there are good camps that do both, but it is probably best to find camps that just provide the one way or the other. I do agree that patrol cooking is one of the best activities for developing patrol method habits, especially for new programs where the adults are trying to get up to speed. I also agree that a troop that has good patrol method habits doesnt require patrol cooking for good patrol method performance. It does however require adults who know and understand patrol method to get the best performance. Barry

>>"Several of our scouts who witnessed the incident, didn't want to attend camp again." I often wonder how many scouts see our behavior here and don't want to do anything scouting related anymore as well...

>>Still, a scout is courteous and filling a space that he has no intention of actually using, isn't courteous to those scouts who would have liked to take the MB in question.

>>is it zero tolerance in your book)?

>>In 30+ years we have only had to use this once, when a scout simply refused to do any work whatsoever in his patrol.

>>It's when he signs up for MB and then we find out the last day that he didn't go to the "sessions" (we're not allowed to call them "classes") that we get upset.

There needs to be an unbiased third party involved. Barry

>>Adult-led units are a difficult animal to control and modern scouting does very little to rein them in. Maybe it's time to scrap adult-led methods in a program designed to promote boy-led leadership.