Eagledad

A few thoughts on the subject. That is the first time I've seen the list qiven in such a clear manner on this forum, well done. Second, it may appear simple to some, but to me it is a such a parsed list from different sources, it will take quite some time for adults to learn. Third, it actually is not that complicated of a list once it is practiced because it is naturally intuitive. At the end our Scoutmaster Specifi classes we ask the participants for any questions on anything about the program and clearly discipline was number one. Even after all the training, adults struggle with real world experience. Part of the problem is the adults want to approach discipline as parents because it provides instant satisfaction for the adult and is easier than guiding it as scout leaders trying to develop character. As parents, we want to nip in the bud. As counselors of character, we want the scouts to develop their own initiative in controlling chaos. While the BSA gives clear direction in this area, it isn't something that is easy to master. We aren't experts in the skill of discipline in a unit because we have only practiced as parents. I think Neil's point is pretty good. This isn't a practice that boys instantly understand and use with precision. It has to be practiced and the struggle for adults is allowing the scouts to practice. That is a tall order for adults who struggle with it themselves. Many adults understand when I say that the more a scout makes the wrong decision, the more he will learn in making the right decisions in his future. But while they understand it, believing it or trusting it is are different thing. We adults have to practice and learn as well. I know a troop that develops a sense of responsibility at the boy level is typically a very well rounded disciplined unit. They are easy to see: you don't hear a lot of yelling, the adults aren't standing over the scouts all the time and the scouts are very relaxed. In fact, discipline becomes second nature for the scouts. But it is not an easy vision for a unit. It requires patience and courage from the adults. Patience to not react to every misbehavoir and courage to let the scouts deal with the problem as much as their maturity will allow. I remember once when the PLC decided to prep the whole troop on the undisciplined new scouts. They had learned that new scouts are the most challenging discipline problems they deal with. While I think the BSA has done a good job instructing discipline, I don't think it is something the newly trained scouter can expect to master easily. Personally I don't think the BSA is fair with the SM since the scoutmaster is confronted with misbehavior more than any other adult. But, sending a scout home does give him an easy out. My teaching to adults is learn from every single incident of misbehavior no matter how small or how big learn from it to do better next time. From the boys perspective, when the confront something new or challenging, work together with the adults. Funny thing is that it is likely something new for the adults as well. Good discussion Barry

>>I do love the comment about real world balance

I just love the title, Philmont Training Center made easy. I am one of those who actually had to make the choice between Disney World and PTC. First of all, its not just about money. Many folks are limited by vacation time provide by their jobs, lets say an average of two weeks a year. And if you are active, it is likely that one week went to either summer camp or high adventure. That in itself is a difficult choice, especially for the Scoutmaster who feels obligated to attend summer camp or go with the older son to Northern Tier. Then there is the spouse that not only reminds you about the week at summer camp, but also Wood Badge, Scout Master Basic, Webelos training, District Committee meetings, Round Table Meetings, Pow Wows, JLTs, NYLTs, and lets not forget the weekly Unit meetings, monthly campouts, PLC meetings, and all those other unit activities. Remember, some families live with Scouting everyday one way or another. Is the family supposed to fit in there somewhere? OK, Im a pretty good talker and I manage to explain the savings we would make by doing our family vacation in the beautiful New Mexico Mountains. My CPA wife loves that idea and wants to hear more. Well, when little sister looks at the choice of the Princess Castle at DISNEY WORLD or hiking around everyday in the woods, Philmont losses. Hmm OK, one vote no, one vote yes. At this point we are going to Philmont because the two votes left are the two sons who are Boy Scouts and would love another week at Philmont. Whoops, the key word is ANOTHER. I loose. Lets face it; PTC requires a lot more than just financial sacrifice from the families of those who the training is really pointed at. I hope to attend PTC because I think BW and folks like him need some real world balance, but it will be at a time when I probably dont really need the benefits I gain from it. Still, I'm thinking about it. I applaud those who can and do attend, but the case isnt closed, it is a luxury most scouters cant afford. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Ghost Chickens in the sky sung to the tune of Ghost Riders in the Sky. Lyrics: A chicken farmer went walking out one dark and fateful day He rested by the coop as he went on along his way When all at once a rotten egg hit him in the eye It was the sight he dreaded Ghost chickens in the sky! Bok bok bok BOK Bok bok BOK The ghost chickens in the sky The farmer had raised chickens since he was 24 A-working for the Colonel for thirty years or more Killing all those chickens and sending them to fry Now they want revenge... Ghost chickens in the sky. Bok... Their feet were black and shiny, their eyes were burning red They had no meat or feathers, these chickens all were dead They carried off the farmer and he died by the claw They cooked him extra crispy And ate him with cole slaw Bok... P.S. I learned pretty fast that if the song doesn't have some kind of guts or isn't loud or doesn't let the boys jump up and down, it is no fun in a pack meeting. Barry

I also agree with OGE and anyone else who wears knots for whatever reason. Knots are part of scouting and part of the uniform, so wear them with pride. That being said, I don't wear knots. I have abnormal fear of letting such things go to my head, so I leave temptation in my dresser drawers. Since I'm not as active with scouting right now, I am thinking of mounting them in a frame before I loose them. I also don't like to wear my WB Beads, but will do so at WB events so as not to stick out and become a conversation piece. I know it is silly and I agree. We all have our querks I guess. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>But we are stuck on how to get it out of the rut ... our troop meetings are either adult planned, or choas.

Great suggestions. Let me suggest Get And Use The Patrol Leaders Handbook And SPL Handbook. Those two books provide very simple guidelines for planning and agendas and should be used by both the adults and scouts. That way when a question or problem comes up, the SPL and SM sit down together, pull out their Handbooks and work for a solution. As your group gets better and more experienced, encourage them to improve what they have learned, but start very simple. We also taught the Who, what,where, when... and it works well once the system has developed. But right off the bat, it is a lot of stuff and needs to be broken up into smaller bites. I personally think agendas and plans are the primary reason most troops struggle with boy run. I found that 90% of the scouts that participated in our JLTC (todays NYLC) had never heard of an agenda. I personally think the agenda is the first thing a Patrol Leader and SPL need to learn to write and use. Our JLTC participants wrote a minimum of 20 meeting, planning and activity agendas during the week long course. But dont make it hard, the SPL and PL Handbook has it all. Scouts and adults should refer to them. The SM should develop the expectation that the SPL has with him and agenda or plan for every activity, meeting and campout. The SM needs only to ask to see it so he can see what is going to happen the rest of the day. He is not doing the planning, so he only needs to look at the agenda to know what the rest of the day looks like. Not a check on the SPL, but an education of what the troop is doing. It will take some time before this becomes routine. I really like the idea of adding this to your training. It will start slow at first, but once the scout experiences the value of writing and using an agenda or plan, they will lock on to it. Barry

>>then the unit has training issues. They do not know or understand the roles of the various levels of program, and they need more training...the council can help with that.

>>My question is, should a person who chooses not to do so, be made to feel like they are some sort of deadbeat because they didn't repay their "debt" to Scouting?

>>The basic problem is that most kids don't want to be in Scouting. They stick it through Cub Scouts because their parents want them to be there. In Boy Scouts . . . they just don't want to be there. It isn't cool. No video games.

Well there are a couple assumptions that aren't quite correct. The huge majority of scouts in troops did come from the Cubs. And, the drop out rate of first year scouts was about the same as it is now. The reason for the higher numbers back then was a successful advertising program developing a culture that second grade boys automatically join Cub Scouts. An increase of Cubs led to the increase of troops. In my humble opinion, (and I know it is a reach, but I believe it), adding the Tiger program took a huge toll on the pack recruitment over the years. First grade boys are too young for this program and problems of Tigers has taken away the culture of second grade boys automatically joining scouts. Boys today try it in first grade and we loose a huge chunk of them even before they get to second grade. Barry

Really depends on the maturity of the Patrol. I found the mature patrols elect older scouts. But I was also surprise to see that patrols also look at bringing up younger scouts to get experience. Im sure that idea bleeds down from the servant led PLC culture, but sometimes they get a little younger than I would have liked. Still, the older scouts were purposely good mentors. Our average patrol leader age in mixed age patrol was 14, I would have liked it a little older. But our program kept the older scouts pretty busy. I cant remember a problem with older scouts not wanting to be led by younger scouts. I think it was because our Patrol leaders really do lead, so scouts that show a willingness to take on the duties are respected, and also because the older scouts see themselves as mentors. Most of our pains came in same age patrols because friends of the same age tend to not want to take orders from friends. Barry

>>Young Eagles before, older Eagles now. Change in program? Good or bad?

>>The sm has never liked this kid and has never hidden that fact.

This is a really cool idea. I remember wearing my dads Scout Hat from 1940 and the adults really liked that. I wore my dads shirts as well and GW is right, they were uncomfortable compared even with the shirts in the 70s. I don't know how far you can push it because the limitation on the supply. We once saw a whole troop wear the campiagn hats. They were a big troop, so it look really sharp. Everything that troop did looked sharp. You could tell they took a lot of pride in their program. Our troop check into the idea but somehow it didn't go. I wished it had. I think this is a fantastic idea and hope you can work out a way for all the scouts to get in to it some way or another. Barry

It really depends on the program and even on the personalities of the scouts. We didn't seem to have scouts Eagle in groups, but we had several scouts who waited almost a year so they could have the COH together, my son included. I can see this happenging with new troops because adults new to scouting tend to follow the advancement part of the program pretty close until they start to learn and understand the other seven methods because advancement is the easiest to do when you don't really know what you are doing. That first group of Webelos will likely Eagle pretty close to each other. Barry

Personally I dont see this as more adult led dynamics moving into the boys program. In fact, I almost think it was created to prevent that. But I do feel that it wont help the boy run dynamics because it keeps the parents just a little to close. Our troop was rather large and when we saw the adults closing in on the boys just to be part of the program, we assigned a couple of JASMs to lead the new adult patrol. The JASMs would pull the adults together at all the troop meetings and campouts to brief them on the PLC meeting (we have one every week) and organize the adults for the next campout or activity. The objective from the SM was to keep the program boy run and to help the adults stay in a boy run frame of mind. It worked pretty well. It was a good experience for both the JASMs and the adults. What I think is wrong with the Parent Coordinator idea is that it takes the SM away from the responsibility of personally guiding the adults and continually guiding them on the program philosophy. I found that adults work best in boy run programs when the SM continually teaches and guides adults to how the program works. I see a few up and coming Scoutmasters developing that technique here on the Scouter forums. Everyone will say that the Scoutmaster should spend all their time with the boys. In reality the boys do just fine when the adults get out of the way. I have said many times here that I learned that 50% of the scoutmasters time should be teaching and guiding the adults on the boy run program. It keeps the adults out of the way of the boys and it solidifies the program philosophy into the whole of the troop, not just the ASM circle. But, our culture is changing faster than I can keep up. I wouldnt be surprised if the scouts start doing their PLC meetings with text messaging. Barry

>>These kinds of decisions, and changes to policy, aren't generally made in a vacuum or on a whim.

>>If the Scoutmaster is being "secretive" you can expect many more situations like this one. Open and honest communication is one of the most necessary skills of a useful leader.

>>No deaths I know of, nor has the ceremony been reduced to reading names from a list.

Sounds like a great trip. The Brazos river in central Texas is the closest river I can think of that will fit your needs. I can't help you with an outfitter, but I know there are several on the river. Barry

>>If that were the case, PeteM, the entire ordeal would have been changed.

This was an honor we save for the Webelos IIs in our pack. They are the leaders and instructors for all the other ages in pack meetings, but it is their thing for special events. Barry

First of all, how do you define hazing to the scouts? I think that is a very important question and one that should be answered in one sentence so the scouts have a clear understanding of it. One of the problems I see with adults today is they don't really understand a good definition and end up classifying just about any act that offends them under hazing. I once saw a leader jump on the camp staff for singing happy birthday to a scout that wasn't even in her unit. She didn't know the scout and didn't even ask him how he felt about being sung to, she just called it hazing. Why, because to her being singled out in anything is hazing. We define hazing for our scouts as: when a person is forced to participate in something they dont want to participate in. Under that definition, there isnt a list of actions that are classified as hazing; it is instead the person feelings toward your actions that are taken into account. The BSA suggests that holding a Cub Scout up-side-down while getting his Bobcat is hazing. Yet, I have never met a boy who didn't want to receive his badge in that manner. Personally I think the BSA has only added to the confusion of hazing. It would have been much less controversial and more reasonable to just state that holding a boy up-side-down is not permitted because the risks of permanent physical harm to the Scout. We want scouts to practice serving others by using the scout law and oath and not by someone elses list of things they can and cannot do. There is no list of hazing in the scout law, just the promise to serve others by being friendly, courteous and kind. If the person doesnt feel you are being friendly, courteous and kind, then the scout must consider their actions toward that person and stop, whatever that action is. Practice a definition that doesnt define specific actions, but instead reacting to the feelings of the other person. Teach scouts to take ownership of the well being of others. Encourage them to practice being servants. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hi All The tiger program is all about the parent. To have a successful program, you need to cater to their needs. The packs that have the hardest times with tigers are typically the ones that put the most demands on the parents. More meetings means more demands. I know that we say it is all about the boys, and it is. But Tigers requires the parents and a lot of adult volunteer time. If the program is too demanding, the parents will not come. If the parents dont come, the boys cant come. However, the good news is that if you have the family in the program for the first year, you will have them at least through bears. Ignoring the tiger year, it is very important to understand that we lose more Cub Scouts do to leader burn out than any other reason. The Cub program is five long years and on average you will only get at best 2.5 years from your volunteers. We didnt ask much of our Tiger parents because we were saving their time for the last four years. I know, that still leaves the WEbelos years and that is another discussion. But, we viewed Tigers as more of sit back, relax, and watch and learn the program. We asked for only two outings month to keep the demands lower. One was a fun go and set it intended to get the group to bond. The other was anything they wanted, but typically it was the pack meeting. Of course they came to all the fun stuff like pinewood derby and roller skating parties. We asked each parent to do the calling of their group for one month so that they could get to know the other parents. We also had a Tiger coach to watch the dens making sure they were doing OK and to keep information flowing in both directions between the pack and the tiger families. As a result of our program, we went from 30 to 50% cross over to wolves to 95%. Our pack had to share the recruiting from the same school, which meant we started with equal number of Tigers each year. So we got to watch a side by side comparison of two different approaches with the tigers. The other pack had meetings every week. They were happy crossing over only 40% of their Tigers. Listen to the Tiger parents. They are the ones you have to satisfy. I love this scouting stuff. Barry