Eagledad

Lots of good stuff here. I wanted to support a couple things mentioned. First, the parents have got to know their sons behavior in your troop. My scouts learned quickly that whether the news was good or bad, the parents got a report of their behavior after outings. It wasn't hard for me, I enjoy bragging to parents about their sons after outings. Once in a while the news wasn't so good. While I think it is our job to judge behavior (good or bad), we are not expected to implement change ourselves. The parents are a part of your team and usually they do a really good job without you having to get pointed. I never asked a single family to leave the troop, but I did ask a few to choose helping their son change his behavior, or look for another troop. A few choose to leave. I only had trouble with one parent and he was an ASM in the troop. We didn't have a good relationship, so I picked someone he trusted to explain the problem. Second, I also agree that in this world today, bullying is a broad term used in many situations that really don't deserve it. Be careful not to make a bigger deal about an incident than is required. I just may be a difference in cultures. I had this same problem with cussing. Some boys come from families that except cussing as a part of their communication and don't understand why some people are offended by certain words. They are not purposly trying to hurt other scout with cussing. What scouts have to learn is that while they may not have meant harm, they did create it and they have to step back when they see that. The Friendly Courteous Kind part of the Scout Law is different for everyone one, but each individuallity has to be respected for their interpretation. The scout law is about serving others and serving others is the opposite of hurting or offending. It isn't that hard once you get the scout to understand that is how you will judge their behavior toward others. Good luck with this. I think it will be a good lesson on being a better SM. What ever you do, you will learn from it for the next time. Barry

>>I think since the oath and law are usually only words to memorize and not necessarily applied in the actual methods of scouting- as is clearly evidenced in the Lisabob affair (bullying breaks about half of the scout laws and the oath), then really what the oath and law serve to do is sell scouting to mom and dad and the CO which is now usually a church.

>>Well for starters Barry, how about the Scouts assault on the US Army during practice manuvers?

>>The thought that Scouting was like the movie is just wrong.

>>I am a critic of BSA because I think BSA has lost its efficacy, its standing as a premier youth organization, and its reputation in communities around the nation. And I don't blame society- even though there is always blame to go around-

I am a firm believer and proponent of the BSAs mission to develop boys into men who make ethical decisions based from the Scout Law and Oath. In my own words I like to say that we develop citizens of character and leaders of integrity. I also believe that the when used correctly, the 3 Aims and 8 Methods are almost a genus system of reaching that mission. I know genus is a bold word, but I have watched the system repeatedly work so well that Im still amazed by it. That being said, we have had discussions and debates of the most important method and if methods should be applied equally. My experience is that each boy needs some methods more than others to grow toward a balance in better character. A natural leader may struggle with advancement where as the nerdy sort of fellow flies through advancement but struggles mightily in leadership. Of course most boys struggle with uniform at some point in their life and Patrol Method is difficult even for many adults to understand. And yet, we adults seem to struggle with the idea of letting a boy choose his path through the scouting program. I have always taught adult leaders that if we could only have a boy for one day, shouldnt our program be rich enough that that one boy leaves a little closer to our mission of growth in character. So, when I hear of a scout who leaves the troop on his 18th birthday as a tenderfoot, I dont pause with a moment of regret. There are eight methods to help a boy grow into a man and advancement is only one. If we are lucky enough to have a scout leave on his 18th birthday, I can only think that his family and community are blessed by how this scout will serve them in their future. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

yes I agree, but a lot of is being taught to the adults stuff the scouts already know. Since most of what adults should be doing is teaching, guiding,and mentoring, might as well let the scouts practice on the adults. If you can gets your scouts to instruct at IOLS and the boys are willing, go for it. Barry

This is a really good question. The expectation of JASMs are different for every troop, but the primary objective is to give the scout challenges more along the lines of an ASM. When I was the Council JLT Chairman, we developed the JLTC (NYLT) staff position as JASM training because the scouts in that position spend a lot of time learning to teach course classes and skills for guiding the scouts during the course. It really was great training. I don't know if NYLT does as good, but I would start there. But, you got me wondering about the adult training classes and I think that is really a good idea. Specifically I was thinking about the Introduction to Outdoor Leaders Skills. If I were still on the Council Training Committee, and I am not, I would suggest that we train new JASM scouts to teach that course to the adults. They scouts know the skills, but they would learn how to teach and work guiding scouts like ASMs but teaching and guiding the adults in the course. Since it is unlikely your council or district would use your scouts to train the adults, have a weekend or a day where your JASMs teach your new adults the same skills they teach at IOLS. I think you find everyone enjoying the experience. We kind of this in our troop. On the first campout of the year with all the new scouts, we have the new adults sit in with new scouts in Woods Tools class. The scouts teach the whole class and we find it is a good introduction for all the new parents to a boy run program. Just go a little farther and make a day of it with fire building, and many of the same things taught in IOLS. Barry

>>Can a group bully itself? Yep, they do it all the time and it can happen in a boy-led program. It's called peer pressure and this as well can be both positive and negative.

>>We are kinda dweeby. Most of us don't see the need to adorn ourselfs with the manufacturer's logo to the point that we even get "Gold Wing" tattoos.

The best one I've seen is a cooking contest between each troops' adults combined for the meal that is served to the whole camp that evening. Interestingly barbequing whole pigs, roasting turkeys and creating out of this world stews keeps the adults pretty busy the whole day. If all the troops cook in one area, the adults get to know each other pretty good. Barry

>>You have it right ITS ME. When someone is given a directive to accomplish a task from the "higher ups" the only recourse many have is to simply bully. When the SM dictates to the SPL, who dictates to the PLC, who dictates to the PL, who dictates to his members, bullying is going to happen somewhere along the way.

>>Gotta stay with the thread. >Gotta stay with the thread.

yes,those are the same natural leaders who would earn the eagle if they were in scouts. Kathy is talking about the other 97%of the youth. Barry

sports is not boy led and it generally only develops natural leaders. Scouts done correctly is aleadership development program for all boys. Iwas also a coach while was a scout leader. Barry

aims and methods are what sets this program apart from the others. I can't think of another that is better or even equal. Sports & church youth groups don't develop the confidence & independence a good troop does. Barry

I'm. With GWD Scouter, you don't need to stay for your son or visa versa. The district needs you, the troop won't change without you. Go where your energy can help the most boys. Barry

Call your DE and ask for a couple numbers to Scoutmasters. Then call the SM and ask for a scout that will help you prepare for the campout. We typically ask a scout to volunteer to help a den get ready when they want to camp with our troop. It's a good fun learning experience for everyone and usually the scout and the Webelos leader bond really well. Barry

GREAT post Mike. Once the PLC starts working as a team as you described, bad behavior seems to almost disappear because the scouts learn to deal with it quickly before it turns into a problem. Barry

>>Did I do anything wrong?

>>Cubs seem to do better at focusing on a wide variety of different progams (Tiger -> Webelos) and not run amok. Why can't the BS program do the same thing?

>>Maybe the emphasis on accomplishment of certain measurements isn't the route to go. Is wearing the SPL patch the ultimate goal of leadership? Maybe the JASM is the ultimate goal of leadership. Only a few get to wear those.

Since the vast majority of older scouts dont get the Eagle, the BSA numbers never made sense. Even if Eagle was the base number, a 14 year old Eagle scout would skew any real numbers. Dont we really want to know how many scouts stay in the program to 17? And, those of us who have watched the process the BSA uses to track their rosters can honestly say they arent accurate enough to know anyway. That being said, if the discussion is really about fixing a problem, then the discussion first needs to understand where there is a problem. In general, the statistics for loosing scouts over the age of 10 (Troops) hasnt change significant in the last 40 years. The significant changes are more in the other ages, most significanly the 10 and below ages (Cubs). Add to that how much our culture has changed over the last 40 years, we might start to see a trend point toward a big picture. It is not an easy problem to understand. Most folks focus on local observations as the overall problem when in reality local issues are usually just local and dont represent the big picture problems. We really have to see the numbers at a larger scale to find the problems. Barry

>>But please don't expect me to be a cheerleader for vanilla when I prefer chocolate, and don't dump assumptions on me that because I like chocolate that I think vanilla isn't as good.

>> Dah? Wake up here. This is why the JASM leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. It's the kiss of death that the brightest and best get saddled with.