Eagledad

Ive told this before and it has been awhile, so the numbers may be a little off, but I used to poll troop level folks at Wood Badge. I found about 20% (give or take) of adults owned a Scoutmaster Handbook, 5% had read half of it and about 2% had read the whole thing. These were adults who were taking Wood Badge, most of whom where not entry level scouters. Im impressed with your observation GAHillbilly. I agree with your observations, but I think every new adult leader, no matter their experience starts off at concept three and works their way through concept two as they get experience and training. I do agree that some folks kind of hang in concept three, but most will move down to a large degree to concept two. There are several reasons why you have folks that hang around three, lack of training, arrogance, ignorance, or lack of self esteem. From my observations, the best boy run Scoutmasters are the ones who moved on to Concept One. While the BSA provides enough literature and guidance for an adult to develop their program into a good boy run program, they dont do a good job of developing the philosophical mindset that adults need for progressing to a mature boy run program. Badon Powell and even they early BSA developers did a much better job of painting the big picture of scouting from a philosophical point of view. As an example, the simple phrase we all seem to hang on "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" came from that generation. What you find is those adults who wanted to go the extra distance of boy run found themselves researching the literature of scoutings founders because there isnt much literature (if any) like that provided today. There is only a very small group of folks who spent much time trying to get to your first concept. But those scouters usually stick out of the crowd as well as their programs. Many of those adults stand out here on this forum. I think this is a very good subject if we can stick with how to get folks from Concept Three to Concept Two. But I think we must start from the point that most scouters are not like your example of your guy who thinks he knows it all. Of course there are those kind of folks, but most folks are trying to just move forward from what they already know. They may appear to be arrogant, but I find they are very willing to listen when someone they trust stands up to guide folks. Remember, less than 5% of the population are natural leaders, so the rest will follow when given the choice. When a leader stands up, the rest will follow. The problem you present is when a leader happens to be the guy in your example. So how do we handle folks like that? By the way, I find there are a lot of women that fit in that description as well. We once had a very successful Troop in our district lead by such an adult. It was a well oiled merit badge mill of almost 200 scouts. Everyone knew it, but what are you going to say to such a successful person? Typically adults from that troop were at least half of my Scoutmaster Specific course. A group of those adults once approached me at a council event and explained that they wanted to turn the troop more to what I had trained, but there was no way they could stand up to the very strong minded SM. And they were right. This SM was the kind of person that not only knew how to run such program, but he also knew how to get folks to donate six digit money each year to the council. Ive gone long, but I think what you are asking is how do we confront those small group of adults in the third group who have the kind of personality to drive a program the wrong direction. Barry

>>With all the legalese that flies around about if and or how in the heck can we expect a teenager to work through that on his own without a lot of frustration and wasted time by a lot of people?

>>It seems with an Eagle coordinator, these important steps are relegated to an adult thereby lessening the responsibility on the Scout.

I know this is not supposed to be about me, but our troop has seen many such blessings and its kind of fun to remember back on them. The first year of our troop when money was really tight, we were doing a car wash fundraiser. A guy in a truck pulled up to one of the scouts, handed him $50 and told him he didn't have time to wash the truck, but he wanted to support the scouts. We are were on our way home from summer camp in Colorado passing through the Texas panhandle. It was kind of late about 8:00 Pm because we spent day doing white water rafting. Our boys were dead tired and not in uniform because of the rafting trip. We decided to stop at a Pizza Hut in a small town before our final four hour push to Oklahoma City. All 40 scouts rushed into Pizza Hut before the adults. By the time I got in there, the SPL and PLs got control of all the scouts and had already asked the manager where the smelling ratty bunch of boys should sit. The manager even found a table for the dozen adults away from the scouts. All went well the rest of the evening, but when we got our bill, the manager paid for over half himself. He said when he saw how the boys listened to the SPL when they came in, he wanted to support the scouts. Yep, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>As a unit commissioner, I am in a difficult possition,

I have been involved in several unit rivalry situations where they recruit from the same source. I learned quickly that when you handle one situation, you automatically become the District expert. I imagine Beavaher understands what Im talking about. Anyway, there are two factors that seem to heat these things up. One is the idea that a unit is competing against all the other units for new scouts and needs to grab all they can. The other is these units dont know how to sit down together and discuss the problem. The first thing I do is bring the unit leaders together and explain the logistics of recruiting from the same pool of recruits. I try to find out how many eligible boys are out there that can be recruited showing the units that there are plenty of boys. Strangely, it is usually the units the give me those numbers, so they already know. Then I explain that while recruiting sometimes appears to be competitive, it is not. Units are not supposed to horde all the boys. In fact competition or the appearance of competition drives families away and reduces the size of the pool. Then I lay out what the unit leaders really already know, recruiting needs to performed in a neutral location and as fairly as possible. Planning must be done together so that the units have the appearance of being a team. It also helps to for both units to lay out the size and number of there dens. Then from there you can see what they really need to balance the packs. One pack my have a ton of bears and few wolves while the other had a lot of wolves and few bears. That is not unusual because a successful adult may have pulled most of the new scouts that year. What I suggest is the adults in both packs work together to figure out what each other needs to have balance. That gets them working as a team and buying into the needs of the other unit. In most cases that plan has worked very well. I did have one situation where one pack bragged that they were seeking to kill the other pack. It really came down to one very aggressive adult. Nothing I could say changed his mind and strangely, I could not get District or Council to help change his mind. Four years later the two packs merge together. Truth was the merge was a good thing. Problem was they aggressive pack drove away so many families in that area from scouting that it took several years to get the pack to earn a good image. I will say that image is everything here and the packs need to understand that. It is hard enough for a parent to put themselves out and commit to scouting. Add to that bickering adults who dont seem very scout like and they arent going to even mess with it. Once you develop the reputation, it is hard to shake. Get the adults talking to each other so you can get them to empathize with the other pack. Then you can get them planning how they will work together. Hope this helps a little. Barry

Yes, I think the adults in your ship encourage advancement and do a good job with it. I don't think that is typical of most crews and ships, at least not around here. Barry

>>Anyone who has dealt with this at a crew or ship level understands what a non-issue this is.

Hi Acco Neil explained the advancement pretty good. You deal with the scouts who advance in the troop program, the Venture leaders deal with the scouts who advance in their program. I also very much agree with Neils comment: It might get a bit tricky if the relationship were somewhat hostile and he wanted to use three months as a Troop Officer and three months as a Crew Officer but even that would, in my opinion, meet the requirement. It would need to be worked out in a courteous, friendly and kind manner. I have watch the Venture crews and Venturing Patrol programs in our council pretty closely and I think 8 out of 10 of them die in five years. It is even worse odds when the Crew expects a Troop to be the feeder and the SM isnt going along. You havent given the reason these guys are doing this, but typically it is something to the effect that the older scouts are bored and they need more adventure to keep them in the program, bla, bla, bla. In truth, these adults want something different and their desire is driving the whole thing. To a large degree your hands are tied. I agree with Lisabob and John that you need to get District and Council involved because this is going to keep you up at nights for a while. While it always looks like a Scout issue of improving the program, it is in fact an adult issue that will likely get a lot worse. Scouting is a wonderful program until the adults get involved. Good luck, I hate these things. Barry

>>Uhh, without quotes, italics, or "he says", "my response", it's hard to tell who is saying what here. Too easy to blow through to the bottom and move on to the next topic.

>>A lot of large troops that are adult led tend to hang together on the personality of the SM and other leaders. When those dynamics change, either they fragment or collapse under their own weight. The council always has the option to step in to minimize the damage.

>>So if the forum were to follow Its Me's suggesstion it would need to add 22 new categories.

>>The council steps in to break up a troop? I've never heard of that.

>>That's the difference! It has NOTHING to do with the adults, it's the boys leading the program that make the difference.

>>Very few adults can run a troop of 30-40 people. Most run 20-30. This is why scout troop sizes tend to run in these ranges for numbers. Turning this over to a boy means even fewer because youth at that age cannot handle the group dynamics of such sizes. Either the adult will continue to lead through the SPL or the numbers will naturally fall.

I love just for fun questions. OK, are socks included? Barry

>>The closest thing the SM gets to hands on is supporting the work of any JASM and SPL. Otherwise he's there to do teaching, feedback, bouncing off of ideas, resource person. He has enough to do keeping adults at bay, lining up rides, working with CC and ASM's and other things the boys are not expected to do that only adults can handle.

>>The Troop Officers form up virtual patrols and focus their attention on the needs of everyone, not just one patrol. The patrol members are focused on the teamwork of patrol. If something is needed in the patrol, it would be better to find a troop officer for assistance rather than interrupting another patrol and its members for assistance?

>>Weather it was a JLT or NYLT course your son should be able to tell you more than that he walked in circles & burned ants.

>>I am also temted to just sit tight through his tenor and see if the next SPL has a better appreciation for the patrol method.

>>That's because of the way that we seperate kids by age for everything else.

>>What I want to say say is look the mixed aged patrol is where we need to be and we need to get on with this. But the resistance to this was greater than I had perceived it would be. The older scouts only want to be with older scouts.

>>You can argue that jblake or others are successful at what they do, the question is if they arenot following the scouting program, then is what they do really Boy Scouting, or are they simply using the name and the uniform for their own program.

A few thoughts on the subject. That is the first time I've seen the list qiven in such a clear manner on this forum, well done. Second, it may appear simple to some, but to me it is a such a parsed list from different sources, it will take quite some time for adults to learn. Third, it actually is not that complicated of a list once it is practiced because it is naturally intuitive. At the end our Scoutmaster Specifi classes we ask the participants for any questions on anything about the program and clearly discipline was number one. Even after all the training, adults struggle with real world experience. Part of the problem is the adults want to approach discipline as parents because it provides instant satisfaction for the adult and is easier than guiding it as scout leaders trying to develop character. As parents, we want to nip in the bud. As counselors of character, we want the scouts to develop their own initiative in controlling chaos. While the BSA gives clear direction in this area, it isn't something that is easy to master. We aren't experts in the skill of discipline in a unit because we have only practiced as parents. I think Neil's point is pretty good. This isn't a practice that boys instantly understand and use with precision. It has to be practiced and the struggle for adults is allowing the scouts to practice. That is a tall order for adults who struggle with it themselves. Many adults understand when I say that the more a scout makes the wrong decision, the more he will learn in making the right decisions in his future. But while they understand it, believing it or trusting it is are different thing. We adults have to practice and learn as well. I know a troop that develops a sense of responsibility at the boy level is typically a very well rounded disciplined unit. They are easy to see: you don't hear a lot of yelling, the adults aren't standing over the scouts all the time and the scouts are very relaxed. In fact, discipline becomes second nature for the scouts. But it is not an easy vision for a unit. It requires patience and courage from the adults. Patience to not react to every misbehavoir and courage to let the scouts deal with the problem as much as their maturity will allow. I remember once when the PLC decided to prep the whole troop on the undisciplined new scouts. They had learned that new scouts are the most challenging discipline problems they deal with. While I think the BSA has done a good job instructing discipline, I don't think it is something the newly trained scouter can expect to master easily. Personally I don't think the BSA is fair with the SM since the scoutmaster is confronted with misbehavior more than any other adult. But, sending a scout home does give him an easy out. My teaching to adults is learn from every single incident of misbehavior no matter how small or how big learn from it to do better next time. From the boys perspective, when the confront something new or challenging, work together with the adults. Funny thing is that it is likely something new for the adults as well. Good discussion Barry

>>I do love the comment about real world balance