Eagledad

I second Bob White in that competition is instinctive for boys and you should use that to your advantage for good team building a Patrol bonding. Its in their boy nature; so learn how to use that positive energy for momentum toward their growth. You seem to be pretty successful in the patrol method part of the program, but struggling a little in the application of the Scout Oath and Law. That is OK, it is just a matter of practice for the adults and we all have to learn and grow to build a mature scout program. Remind the scouts that they are to serve the other scouts by using the scout law all the time. I find it interesting that you see a bit of the problem with the age based patrols. That is pretty perceptive. We experience the clickiness as well when the troop was more aged based and lot of it came from the leadership side. The troop had developed into a routine where the third year scouts inherited the PLC, whether they wanted it or not. The younger groups were dreading it, and the older groups were glad to move on. The ambitious leaders couldnt get in early or stay in once they were there. There werent any written rules about it, the clickiness just seem to pull it that way. There also wasnt the cohesiveness between the patrols groups that you seem to want as well. They got along OK, but they didn't have the pride of being part of a great troop. We migrated to mixed age patrols and all that changed almost instantly. Patrol pride remained, but it was healthier now. The patrol leaders felt support from the other patrol leaders, which resulted in better leadership skills and the youth taking on more the responsibility of scout discipline. The PLC was much stronger with ages that ranged from 13 to 17 years old. Scout growth accelerated faster than the adults could imagine. A troop is only as good as its older scouts because they are the role models. Keep up the good work. Barry

>>I think it could be because when the PL is there and doing his job well, there is not much responsibility attached to being the APL.

We eventually matured into a troop where the scouts pretty got to choose where they wanted to go. But that doesnt mean the adults are supposed to stand back and not have an opinion. I can write volumes on the benefits of mixed age patrols over same age patrols based from our experiences. So I'm very motivated to guide the program in a direction that is best for the scouts growth. As our troop matured, we learned what worked and what doesnt. However, if a NSP came to us and asked to be their own patrol, we would let it happen knowing the struggles they would contend. The way our troop worked was when the new scouts joined, we told them that after summer camp, they could do anything they wanted. We asked them to watch all the patrols so they could pick the one they wanted. Or they could start their own with our full support. And they could go to any patrol with as many friends as they wanted. With all those choices, we never one has a NSP that wanted to start their own patrol. And despite all the theories, we found that most boys are happy joining a patrol with just one other friend. We did have a few times when older scouts wanted to start a new patrol and started by recruiting new scouts. But the new scouts never wanted to go on their own. And why would they, they dont cook as well, tell as good stories or jokes and they like hanging around older scouts. That doesnt mean a NSP doesnt work. Given the right adults, NSPs will do fine. Barry

Veryfiy that this is really a scout function before it is made an issue. My sons soccor team use to go out and play paintball. Barry

>>Being a 40 year+ Scouter I think the NSP is a Band-Aid with no adhesive; it was designed for adult run troops that had hazing problems.

>>My original feeling was that a friendly face at Tenderfoot (to get the scary unknown out of the way) would be a better set up for future successes than throwing up on his shoes and quitting because he is afraid of the unknown.

>>If a man does something and there's no woman around, is he still wrong? (sorry)

>>It is not a requirement for Scout rank to have a BOR, but my new boys all have one anyway. This serves two purposes. 1) It gives all the new scouts an opportunity to experience a BOR before they "count". That means the boys go in with a more relaxed feeling, no pressure, just so they get their feet wet talking with the adults on the Board. And 2) it gives a chance for the adults to work through any problems/questions they may have conducting a BOR.

>>And certainly, BSA's image to the public is complex and multi-faceted. Nonetheless, one portion of that image that has loomed ever larger in the public eye in recent decades has been a direct result of BSA's discriminatory membership policies.

>>What rules of the BSA (and by rules I mean policies, procedures, et al) get in the way of you delivering a good program?

Hi All A lot of the time these things happen because the group and or the group leader doesn't understand the objective. BORs is one of the most common adult discussion questions that comes up in all scouting forums because really it not all that clear why we do it the way we do it. It is nice to have cheatsheets (we did that also), but if the objective isn't clear, it can still be difficult. Barry

>>Traditional capture the flag can accomplish the same goals as Laser Tag

>>If the only thing we can come up with is Laser Tag, contact sports,(that are certainly available outside scouting) there doesn't seem like there's much that really prevents a high quality program.

>>Ahhh... Maybe we need to make a distinction between "good Scouting" and that which we wanna do

Cub camping rules. Some of the games like lazer tag and even football. Retesting. Adults only doing a BOR. Barry

>>You may not get concensus, but you'll certainly get a lot of strong opinions. ;-)

>>"How about asking the Scout to tie a knot?" No kidding Robert, really! And after all your lectures. I must have been doing that scouting stuff. Please continue because we need your last word before we can move on. Barry

>>Consider this. How about asking questions that are directly related to the relements of scouting.

>>Somehow I find a degree of questionable honesty in some of these approaches to bending the "rules".

>> And then a heated discussion would take place here as to whether not approving such an arrangements would be adding to the requirements, because there is no rule against holding two POR's simultaneously? Just want to liven up a Friday - :-)

Well Im not going to get into shoulds, should nots and even assuming why National doesnt have text in their books. Boy, I wish our government could function under these expectations. However on a practical level, I found that the hardest skill for me to teach scouts was "delegation". New SPLs tend to try and do everyones job because they know how to do them and they dont trust the ones who are new to the position. The SPL may only have one official position of responsibility (SPL), but in practical reality, he takes on several jobs at one time or another. My challenge as a Scoutmaster was to help him develop the skill of just doing only one job. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Would it be wrong for me to rename them to dens like Dragon, or raven instead of the Webelos 1 and Webelos 2.

This fairly common in Oklahoma. One popular campfire method is to use lanterns. We used three lanterns at my last Wood Badge Course set up in a triangle around the fire ring. You can come up with some really clever ways to display the lanterns, but it works really well for us. As for the flint and steel, I would do what John suggest and learn the exact limitations in the restriction. You might be able to do it under a pavilion in big barrows or even off the ground in barbeque grills. There might be a building or shelter with a fireplace in your camp. We have them at our scout camps. That is a really cool event, so I would try and find a way to make it work. We've been experiencing heavy winds in the state for the last month, so Im sure the scouts are still having to come up with cleaver ways to do a campfire. Barry

>> Boots give extra ankle support which is nice when descending the nice rocky trails coming down from either Baldy or Tooth of Time.

>>I will veto if I feel it goes contrary to scouting policy, or the aims and methods. (I would not let them vote to abandon uniforms, of course, but I would lit them pick uniform pieces, like a troop hat, or non standard patrol patches).