Eagledad

>>However you were given a copy of the minutes so that you were not left in the dark. Also, you should have had your Assistant Den Leader, or one of the other den parents, attend the meeting in your stead to represent your den. That way you would have had someone to offer up your den's side of things.

>>I would also guess the other Troop's "more traditional" program means no women. Which I think you would prefer.

>>(Just as an aside, our SPL/ASPL serve for a full year rather than 6 months - I wonder how typical that is?)

Hi All This is not a knock against my good friend John-In-KC, but his post kind of brings modern day scouting to a sobering perspective. In a request by someone for the training needed to be a good CM, John listed a few things off: CM Specific Tiger Specific Wolf/Bear Specific Webelos Specific BALOO Safe Swim Defense Round Table Pow-wow Den Chief training All in one hour a week, and John didnt even include Fast Start and Youth Protection which are be taken on line. I was worn out just reading his list, but then John added the perfect Cub Scout finish. KISMIF (KEEP it simple, Make it FUN). It brought a smile to my face. I love this Cub scouting stuff. Barry

Hi Lisabob I cant really say if this is the right thing for your son because I dont know your son or the troop well enough. What I do know is this: I think 14 is young for a mature troop program. Its not that they cant handle it, they can. But they just dont seem to gain from the experience as much as the 15 year old. Most scouts who truly run for SPL the first time are nervous and unsure of themselves. I have found that while the SPL experience doesnt change the boys personality, it magnifies it a lot. In the good troops, the experience is exhausting. In the bad troops the experience is boring. Not one of the SPLs under my time as a SM quit scouting before their 18th birthday. While a couple of my SPLs were not that great as leaders, all were super scouts and super leaders after their SPL experience because they learned so much about scouting in those few months. Even the 14 year old SPLs are miles a head of the other 14 year olds. They were truly the best of the best and viewed that way by all the other scouts. Once an SPL, always an SPL. No matter what job they take on after being an SPL, past SPLs are looked at as JASMs by the other scouts because they are the adults of the scouts. All our SPLs volunteered to be Troop Guides. I used to wonder why, but looking back on it, the TG was the closest servant leadership job in the troop that gave the same feeling of satisfaction they got from being an SPL. If your son doesnt become an SPL, he still has plenty to reward his experience until he is ready. If he does become an SPL, he will hate the first two months, love the second two months, then look forward to the next election day the last two months. He will never be the same after, and he will always have a part of himself in the troop. If the other scouts dont take the troop seriously, he will take it personally. But if the other adults dont take the troop seriously, he will get angry. Every SPL looks at the troop as theirs to protect. There is a lot to consider, but really it is only six months of stressful intense frustrating leadership that will change him for the rest of his life. Depending on the troop of course. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>No one in the troop knows this, but I am bisexual. And based off of past experiences, I do not think this would go over very well with the boys, as well as some adults.

>>I find it tremendously sad, however, that there are boys out there who DO want to join in the adventure, but whom we snub by saying they're not the "best type" of person.

>>I do not believe in any god, deity, higher power, whatever. And when I say "to do my duty to god" or "a scout is reverent" or "one nation, under god", I do not mean any of it.

Hi All Boy this is tough. Everyone has given good advice. I can say from my observations that this situation typically gets worse and these units usually loose their numbers rather quickly. We are all different and I dont like to paint a broad stroke. IN ballance, women are as good (or bad) at leading in Boy Scouts as men. But, there is one thing that is 100% certain about women leaders, they never had the Boy Scout experience as a youth. And that is a huge difference. I cant give better advice than already given, I can only ask: what motivation could this SM, or committee for that matter, have for changing the way they are presently doing things? What kind of experience do you want your son to have in scouting? Barry

>>The fact that their sons (who are now grown) are no longer in the program has nothing to do with it. They are excellent because of their passion, knowledge, commitment and experience.

>> I think many SM struggle with leadership development because they DON'T understand or know how to guide the scout in actual practice.

Until recently, Silppery Falls in Oklahoma didn't provide any tents. I think a couple of camp sites provide them now, but not the overall camp. Barry

Beautiful Oklahoma Day All I have felt for some time that Scoutmasters struggle today with leadership development because National emphasizes formal training over the scoutmaster guiding the scout in actual practice. I really dont think the folks at National understand how to do effective leadership development, and this bead thing only supports that view. I would gladly give up my beads to recognize the SM who gets the most leadership development with least JLT. Barry

>> There's always a fine line between letting boys fail in their position and providing the help necessary for the troop to have a successful function.

>>I reckon we all agree that if we have a new unit, adults need to provide more support, eh? So in respondin', let's think about what a mature unit might do.

FUNDRAISERS! When our troop was very young and we were trying to teach the scouts about annual planning, we asked them to vision the impossible. Eventually someone mentioned a trip to Alaska and laughter followed. We told them that nothing is impossible and if they wanted a trip to Alaska, it could be done. A temporary patrol of scouts went to Alaska two years later. If they really want to do both, nothing is impossible. FUNDRAISERS! I think the adults will see a lot of character growth as well. Oh, you gotta love this scouting stuff. Barry

My ideal number is two, a Scoutmaster and a cook. My dad was a Boy Scout during WWII. They had several campouts where zero adults attended because they just didnt have the man power. My dad said they would give a full report to the Scoutmaster at the next Troop meeting and he then advised and guided them on improving. Im not saying that is the best way to run a troop because I think the adult role model is important in a boys growth. But, I wouldnt have minded our SPLs taking the troop camping without adults on his last campout before the election to see test what he had learned. I do think new troops need more adults than mature troops. Building new boy run programs takes a lot of time and energy. But once those troops get their feet under them (four or five years), there isnt a lot for adults to do except stand around and tell stories, which I enjoy very much. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>"Theory" is as good as it gets in science, nothing is ever proved. Theory of gravity, theory of electromagnetism, etc.

>>No Ed, evolution has been observed, both in the wild and in the lab.

Its kind of funny, but you can do almost anything you want provided "Jesus" is mentioned. Sign of the times I guess. You've received great advice from the forum. I have found that a prayer to start, a song to follow, then a few short readings out of the bible followed with a prayer and a song pretty much gets the job done in 15 minutes with no complaints. Find readings that are generic to positive attitudes or perspectives and keep the prayers short and simple so the boys don't get antsy. I think that is basically what you will find with Scouts Own. If you have guitar, the music goes really well. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>How did boys from atheist families have the opportunity to participate in scouts? Were the boys themselves atheists, or just their families? And by "in the schools," do you mean school-chartered?

>>The whole Buddhist/atheist issue is just such a consistency problem.

>>Either toss the Buddhists out, or come to grips with the atheist issue.

This is one of those discussions that no one wins. I work in a scientific environment and I have to kind of laugh at the assumptions of how we get from point A to point B thru science. Or what we assume is science. Sometimes point B is only the opinion of the guy at the top of the tower. It isnt until many years later after the tower crumbles that the truth is really found. I see it everyday. I think we will see that in global warming. Anyway, as much as I know what goodness God brings into our personal lives, much less our culture, I can relate to LeRoys view when thinking about homosexuality. Many folks claim gays are born gay. Or even that God designed them that way. Yet there is no evidence that the biological body was designed to for homosexual relations at all. In fact it is just the opposite, the body is not designed for active long term gay relationships. Eventually something has to give. So, when I hear or read someone suggesting that folks are born gay, I have to assume that their belief is only held on, well faith. Barry

I understand that one of these boys has a reputation for this kind of stuff, but remember that they are 7 year old boys. It is not in their nature to stand or sit being calm and quit while waiting for the next activity. Staying quiet for just a few minutes is painful for a seven year old. Many times I've sat in camp toward the end of the day of day camp listening to inexperienced cub leaders yelling at the top of their lungs. I never had too much problem because if I saw the scouts loosing control, I changed the environment. Sometimes that meant skipping a day camp activity to go over and play in the stream of just run through the woods. Kim Near Seattle has some excellent suggestions. I love this scouting stuff. Barry