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Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese


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3 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Right, I will tell you that it is the adults and I've gotten several versions of "I've been in scouting XX years and never heard about it."

To which my response is "Well did you think BSA or the victims are going to advertise 'I was abused' or 'John Scout was abused'?"

To be clear, what I said and what I say is that to my knowledge it has not happened in our unit.  Even today none of the cases in my council involve my CO.  I don't say I've never heard about it.  If you're conversing with someone about it it's obvious they've heard about it.  

I'm curious, how many, as a percentage of units, do you think this has occurred in?  Even if the victims and BSA was advertising about it, which parenthetically they actually have been doing, how many scouts and scouters do you think would be able to say that they were within one degree of separation from an abuse or abuser.  For as terrible as things have been, and in no way downplaying either the seriousness or terrible negligence involved in how big a problem this is, as a factual matter the overwhelming number of scouts who have passed through the program weren't abused, weren't near abused, weren't parts of units where abuse occurred.

Abuse has been and is a terrible problem, it is a widespread problem, but it is by no means what could be considered a "common" problem under an objective understanding of that word.

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31 minutes ago, leedavid815 said:

 

The correct term for BSA sexual perpetrators is not "pedophile"

Hebephilia - Wikipedia

 

I believe the term/categorization is based on age of victim/fixation, yes? Three distinct categories, pedophile being the second age range. I may be wrong.

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4 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

Question to current scout leaders. What do you tell current scouts and or their parents if asked about the current bankruptcy and the child sexual abuse in the past?

Simple, I tell the truth to the best of my knowledge. If I don't know, I will tell then I will try to find out and follow up, then I do so. 

But I rarely get questions from parents or scouts. By the time they are in units I have been involved with, they have been in Scouting for sometime and are aware of the current events of the time. 

Most of the questions I have received come from people not involved in Scouting, and again, I tell them the truth to the best of my knowledge. 

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5 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

When I think on this, I can honestly say we don't really need our local council.  Everything they provide us could be done (and in most cases, actually already is being provided) through National functions (policy, materials (books and uniforms), standardized training) and local volunteers (local training courses and events).

Could anyone else here live without their local council?  With the technologies we have now, could they go away without a great deal of impact to Scouting?  I think so....and so, BSA toggle?

 

I disagree, I have lobbied for a smaller national presence. But I would not want to try to carry out our mission and program without my local professionals. I rely on them frequently. Their primary value is not sitting in an office (though there are  important things done there), it is their boots on the ground assistance, recruiting scouts and volunteers, assisting with programs, and yes fundraising. 

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23 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

The LC's have A LOT more they could give up(most,not all). I feel all cash and investments except for 6 months operating capital should go to the fund.  And maybe 50% of current camps too. That will still leave an alive BSA. They will have to work harder in the future to stay afloat.

The issue with some LCs is that they survive off the investments because donations and fees aren't enough to keep them running.  I don't know exactly how compelling that need is for all of them, but for at least some losing even 50% of their investments would put them out of operation.

23 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Good bets. I will never fathom people who defend the BSA (and LCs) at all costs, no matter what.

Well, keep in mind the context of that defense.  You and a few other people have the "anti-BSA" point of view very well covered and represented so for those points about which I agree with you, there's not really any purpose in my repeating you.  That leaves me with those positions where I disagree with you and feel strongly enough about something to write about it.  So I'm sure if you were looking at my posts as a whole, it would look like I'm an avowedly "pro-BSA" supporter.

 

7 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

Question to current scout leaders. What do you tell current scouts and or their parents if asked about the current bankruptcy and the child sexual abuse in the past?

As others have said, it's never really talked about because parents don't like to think about possibilities like that.  Just like how concussions are rarely discussed amongst football and soccer parents.

3 hours ago, ThenNow said:

I believe the term/categorization is based on age of victim/fixation, yes? Three distinct categories, pedophile being the second age range. I may be wrong.

Not the age per se, rather the stage of physical development.  Pre-pubescent fixation (generally under age 10) = pedophile, Pubescent fixation (early adolescence, generally 11-14 or 15) = Hebophile.  Post-pubescent fixation (generally 15-19) = Ephebophile and that's not even automatically considered a "disordered preference".

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20 minutes ago, elitts said:

As others have said, it's never really talked about because parents don't like to think about possibilities like that.  Just like how concussions are rarely discussed amongst football and soccer parents.

I kind of keep seeing that theme repeated.  More talk about it from the BSA side might be a good preventative method.  Discussion from BSA to parent might lead to more parent to scouter talk.

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5 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

I kind of keep seeing that theme repeated.  More talk about it from the BSA side might be a good preventative method.  Discussion from BSA to parent might lead to more parent to scouter talk.

I actually am shocked by some parents.  Parents that barely slow down their car to drop a kid off at a park or building not even checking to see if any leader is present.  I’ve shown up at meeting places in empty buildings to find a loan scout there who was dropped off by a parent (I told him I had to leave the building until another leader arrived).  
 

We don’t mandate YPT for all parents but sometimes I wonder if we should.

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19 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I actually am shocked by some parents.  Parents that barely slow down their car to drop a kid off at a park or building not even checking to see if any leader is present.  I’ve shown up at meeting places in empty buildings to find a loan scout there who was dropped off by a parent (I told him I had to leave the building until another leader arrived).  
 

We don’t mandate YPT for all parents but sometimes I wonder if we should.

I think a lot of parents look at youth activities as somewhere to just dump their children.  My daughter was a competitive swimmer and her Mom and I spent major amounts of time on pool decks.  amazing how many kids were just dropped off in parking lots and at swim meets the same parents complaining that swimming took up to much of their time.

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20 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I actually am shocked by some parents.  Parents that barely slow down their car to drop a kid off at a park or building not even checking to see if any leader is present.  I’ve shown up at meeting places in empty buildings to find a loan scout there who was dropped off by a parent (I told him I had to leave the building until another leader arrived).  
 

We don’t mandate YPT for all parents but sometimes I wonder if we should.

Perhaps revise the pullout part of the HB to have specific places for parental and youth initials, not just take their word they covered it?  We all know that likely half or more do not really review it, or even look at it.  How do we make it more likely to actually have that review?

 

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9 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

Question to current scout leaders. What do you tell current scouts and or their parents if asked about the current bankruptcy and the child sexual abuse in the past?

I'm presently a Cubmaster. We have not discussed this with the Cub Scouts, and I doubt any of them other than my daughter knows the BSA is in bankruptcy.

Oddly, as I was reading page 46 of this thread, my daughter asked me what it was about and then asked why the BSA is in court. So, I told her.

I have discussed the case with our pack committee, which includes a bankruptcy attorney. No one commented.

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8 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

I agree 100% scouting has become like the federal and state governments.  Why do we need both national and local councils? 

This is like government in that they have federal agencies and states have the exact same agencies.  Ie federal EPA, state EPA.

Which government would you keep? Federal or state?

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2 hours ago, elitts said:

Not the age per se, rather the stage of physical development.  Pre-pubescent fixation (generally under age 10) = pedophile, Pubescent fixation (early adolescence, generally 11-14 or 15) = Hebophile.  Post-pubescent fixation (generally 15-19) = Ephebophile and that's not even automatically considered a "disordered preference".

Right. I was saying “age” as in typical ranges. I realize late bloomers, like me, had a prolonged period in my abusers target zone and thus change the “age” spectrum. I just didn’t want anyone assuming a single category was solely applicable to our abuse claims or misconstruing the previous post. Thanks for listing the details. At least I wasn’t wrong wrong. :) 

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1 hour ago, johnsch322 said:

I kind of keep seeing that theme repeated.  More talk about it from the BSA side might be a good preventative method.  Discussion from BSA to parent might lead to more parent to scouter talk.

Parents ARE discussing youth concussions and injury rates in sports. That's part of the reason why US youth participation in sports is in decline, and in particular in football and soccer. On the other hand youth participation is up in baseball and basketball -- two sports not necessarily known for concussions. They happen, just not as visibly. 

One thing to consider is that scouting can be very insular. The people who are into it are often really into it, sometimes a little cult like, and it is often combined with church life, politics, world view, etc. Not so much the case with sports. As a result, it can be a bit of an echo chamber. If people outside of that world knows someone is heavily involved in scouting, most won't ask unpleasant questions or say derogatory or challenging things. 

 

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16 minutes ago, yknot said:

As a result, it can be a bit of an echo chamber. If people outside of that world knows someone is heavily involved in scouting, most won't ask unpleasant questions or say derogatory or challenging things. 

Knowing my situation and involvement in the case, my baby sister asked good friends of hers about YPT and the case, etc. This family is the type you described. No sooner had she asked made a brief intro of the topic and got out here questions and *slam* went the door. They more or less put an index finger in each ear - the respective fingers belonged to the party into whose ears they were inserted - and started chanting, “La. La. La. I can’t HEAR you!! La. La. La...” My sister was shocked. 

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