1 state with 2 councils and vast differences

[Momleader]

Perhaps someone can explain how this happens.   Our state has 2 decent size councils and An small one with no camps.  
Of course the council our towns units are in have followed the letter of law with public health from state and shut everything down. No camps were opened - not even for day use. They even went as far as to ban unit camp outs early in summer. Now SPH (State Public Health) has eased up on camping but all state park campgrounds closed Until spring 2021, so our council isn’t allowing any camping at council camps. The other large council in state has their camps open and will rent to troops:packs with lots of safety rules (no buffet style meals, temp checks, single person/family tenting & sanitation).   
 

would our council’s insurance still be in effect if our troop went to the other council camp?  Literally they have a property across the lake from our council. But that’s another discussion....

[Owls_are_cool]

I had scouts go to a camp outside of my Council (Montana) last summer. The Council that covers Wyoming requested a copy of our council insurance for my unit for my unit to go to this camp. This tells me that your insurance will apply to your unit, even if you go outside of the council.

[fred8033]

Is there a difference between insurance and liability?  If your council has the camps closed because they say it's not safe ... and you as a leader take your scouts elsewhere, you may be "insured", but are you still facing liability for ignoring council recommendations?  

I'm not a lawyer.  I've always wondered about this.  

Edited September 22, 2020 by fred8033

[Owls_are_cool]

We did 2 summer camps last summer and parents had to sign liability waviers for covid-19 for both before the scout can come to camp. 

[MattR]

Call the insurance company and ask them.

I did that once, asking them what constitutes a scout event and they gave me a very simple answer that blew the lid off of a lot of bad info that random scouters just assumed.

[yknot]

I interpreted the second Q on this FAQ to mean that if your local council is saying no camping then you need to follow that and not camp outside of council. If my interpretation is correct then you possibly could be liable if someone contracted Covid. You also have to look at it as your Council is taking these measures not just to reduce risk to scouts within your own unit/Council but also because the scouts in your region could present a risk to scouts in another region if you take them out of Council. Considering how Covid rates have varied widely almost by zip code, it seems the more prudent option.  There was a lot of confusion and many differing opinions about it this summer though. 

https://www.scouting.org/coronavirus/covid-19-faq/

Edited September 22, 2020 by yknot

[TAHAWK]

5 hours ago, Owls_are_cool said:

We did 2 summer camps last summer and parents had to sign liability waviers for covid-19 for both before the scout can come to camp. 

Parental waivers may bar suits by parents, but are generally ineffective against suits by minors, unless approved by the court having jurisdiction over the  minors - often a "Family Court."  Minors have no capability to enter into a contract and parents generally have no power to contract on their children's behalf.

Council permission has no effect to  bar liability, but lack of permission may be admissible evidence of negligence.

[TAHAWK]

5 hours ago, Owls_are_cool said:

I had scouts go to a camp outside of my Council (Montana) last summer. The Council that covers Wyoming requested a copy of our council insurance for my unit for my unit to go to this camp. This tells me that your insurance will apply to your unit, even if you go outside of the council.

This tells me the outside council may believe your council insurance will apply to your unit, even if you go outside of the council.  Many beliefs turn out to be incorrect.

[ParkMan]

@Momleader - I have a sense that short of asking your council what the specifics of their policy is, we are unlikely to know here.  I think you will find lots of good analysis of the probabilities and reasoning - but what specifically the policy in place through your council does in a situation like this is something that we are simply unlikely to know.  My own hunch is that the policy your council provides will provide coverage in almost every scenario.  I find it unlikely that the council would have a policy in place ahead of time that foresaw this scenario.  But again, it's just a wild guess on my part.

As for how do two council have such wildly different policies - it's simple - it's the makeup of each council's Executive Board that determines it.  Sounds like you've got a council with some more cautious people on the board.  The other council has some less cautious people.  What I've come to appreciate is that councils are very independent from national - they each were really making their own decisions once we got past that initial month or two.  Once the states started determining their own opening up policies, it appeared that councils really were all figuring this out.  I can see how one would think this would be coordinated by national - but national just isn't that involved in this level of decision making.

 

[scoutldr]

I am also not a lawyer...but consider:  your Unit is chartered by YOUR council, and the charter agreement is between your CO and your council...not the other council.  IF your council tells you not to camp, you are in violation of the charter agreement if you do.

[Owls_are_cool]

@Momleader Have you contacted someone in your council office and asked them if it is okay to camp out of council? My unit had an idea to do a campout with webelos, so I contacted my District Executive to see if I can get her blessing and to make sure we are not stepping on other efforts to get webelos to camp. We got District blessing (and therefore Council blessing). So maybe your Council will like your idea.

[David CO]

2 hours ago, scoutldr said:

I am also not a lawyer...but consider:  your Unit is chartered by YOUR council, and the charter agreement is between your CO and your council...not the other council.  IF your council tells you not to camp, you are in violation of the charter agreement if you do.

I think the exact opposite is true.  If the council tells you not to camp, the council is violating the charter agreement.

[CynicalScouter]

14 minutes ago, David CO said:

If the council tells you not to camp, the council is violating the charter agreement.

Depends. There's a whole bunch of things getting conflated here.

1) No unit camping at Council Camps. This was the original poster's example. Of course a council can decided whether to open or close its own camps due to health concerns.

2) No unit camping at all. The council is well within its rights to say that it is NOT safe based on current health conditions to conduct any official scout camping. That's not a charter violation at all.

EDIT: And National has specifically authorized Councils to make these calls.
 

Boy Scouts of America

• Local Council Membership/Participation Guidelines Regarding Communicable Diseases
• Prevention of Communicable Diseases in Scouting: Recommendations for Unit and Council Event Leaders
• Pre-Event Medical Screening Checklist
• Model Pre-Event Medical Screening Checklist (COVID-19 version)

 

You are of course free to go camp all you want, but you cannot do so under the banner/umbrella/name of scouting.

Edited September 23, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter]

Here's the additional information. Notice the provision "absent legal constraints." If Council believes that units are legally constrained from conducting camping, then Council gets to make that call. Don't agree? Talk to a lawyer.

 

Quote

 

Local Council Membership/Participation Guidelines Regarding Life-Threatening Communicable Diseases

The BSA policy regarding communicable diseases (acute or chronic) is as follows:

Local Scouting units and their chartered organizations traditionally determine their own membership and participation, absent any legal constraints. Accordingly, units and chartered organizations allow youth or adult members who have, or are suspected of having, a communicable disease to continue to participate in Scouting activities.

The chartered organization and/or a local Scouting unit may request local council assistance if needed, absent any legal restraints. (See See Local Council Membership/Participation Guidelines Regarding Communicable Diseases, No. 680-453, for the steps in that process.)

 

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[qwazse]

If a governor limited youth camping to "groups of no greater than 10 close friends from the same neighborhood, adult supervision and other groups no closer than 100 yards," how many council/units would comply?