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Chapter 11 announced


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5 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

If I were a betting man...

- 50% or more of local camps that exist now will be sold.

- In the next 18 months we'll merge down to one council per 10,000-15,000 scouts.  Each will retain a camp

- all other council owned buildings will be sold to preserve whatever camps we can.

I'll take that fate 100 times out of 100 if it means avoiding a Chapter 7 liquidation and the demise of the program.

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What is legally right is not always morally right.

I would encourage everyone to not ask @ThenNow to rehash particular circumstances. They can be found by patiently browsing his posts. From what I read, they were far from legal. His claim would have b

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11 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

There is happy news...it's over a hundred years old.

There was a time when there were no "Scouts."  And the movement started with idea from an old crusty British Army guy.

No need to worry...kids want Scouting, and it will happen.  Be there for them.  Take them camping.  You already know the like-minded people around you.

BSA is not the be-all-end-all of Scouting.  Just the current major market-share provider.  If they go away, be a grass roots startup.  You will have a blast. 

I'll ask what our SM asked when I suggested this. Who is going to insure you? 

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1 hour ago, swilliams said:

Who is going to insure you? 

I bet it would be a lot easier to get insurance than one would think. Same group that insurers outward bound etc. Insurance for a single unit and specific adults, I assume is much simpler than a large random organization. Now they would drop you after your first incident, but you would be good up to that point. 

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8 hours ago, MisterH said:

I'll take that fate 100 times out of 100 if it means avoiding a Chapter 7 liquidation and the demise of the program.

Agreed

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8 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I bet it would be a lot easier to get insurance than one would think. Same group that insurers outward bound etc. Insurance for a single unit and specific adults, I assume is much simpler than a large random organization. Now they would drop you after your first incident, but you would be good up to that point. 

Insurance, schminsurance... just kidding...

What @mrjohns2 said... companies will sell you insurance for just about anything.  Now, the premiums for that insurance...that's the real question that I don't have the answer to. 

Anyone out there know a ballpark figure for insuring a youth group for $1M in liability??  (that is the usual amount asked for on our COIs; occasionally we get an organization asking for $2M, but our council has always provided that COI with about 2 weeks notice.)

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A couple of thoughts concerning the question of insurance  for persons considering the possibility of creating a local alternative to the BSA.

Insurance companies look at several factors including loss history, risk,  as well as their perception of the environment. An environment in which there are 100,000 claims and a billion dollar plus exposure is not very favorable.

I am a pilot. When I started to fly, it was was easy  to get a five million dollar coverage liability policy with a million dollar per seat coverage limit. Today, the typical policy limit is a million dollars with a $100,000 per seat limit. Your personal and homeowners' umbrella policy as well as most life insurance policies now exclude flying related incidents.. The insurance companies learned that in an aircraft accident, juries were likely to award the maximum coverage of the policy regardless of the coverage limits. Juries are especially sympathetic if a child or young person is involved.

Keep in mind that the BSA is self-insured up to a fairly high limit in order just to get an insurance company to provide excess coverage above that limit. And even then insurance companies may balk at paying a claim.

Yea, you might be able to get coverage in the future for a local group. The cost, high deductible and the limited coverage may give pause to whether the leaders want to place their homes and other personal assets at risk.

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8 minutes ago, gpurlee said:

Yea, you might be able to get coverage in the future for a local group. The cost, high deductible and the limited coverage may give pause to whether the leaders want to place their homes and other personal assets at risk.

I'll check with a buddy who helps with the local youth soccer travel team...  it seems, whenever I talk to him, that another kid on the squad has a concussion.  Their accident and health insurance premiums must be high.  But you don't really need accident and health...  BSA is only a supplementary in that regard anyway, unless you are a military dependent. (Then they are primary.)

It's the liability you need.  And, I'd bet, if you present good documentation and transparency that you are exercising due diligence, the liability premiums may be reduced.  Again, I'd have to talk with the underwriter...  This site says $29 to $47 per month, depending on some variables.  So, at $5 per youth per annum, with 50 Scouts, we are paying $20.83 per month already, thru council/national.

https://generalliabilityinsure.com/small-business/youth-groups-insurance.html#:~:text=How Much Does Youth Group,offered%2C claims history and more.

Finally, your home and assets are always at risk with "gross negligence".  Of course, there are elements of proof for that.  A personal injury lawyer advised me an umbrella policy is always wise ;)

http://www.fcomi.org/uploads/3/3/7/4/3374831/volunteer_protection_act.pdf

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32 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Previous link is behind a paywall. Posting the link is fine. But for those with subscriptions, please respect their copyright and their attempt to monetize that copyrighted content.  Thanks.

For what it's worth, it is not a very substantive piece. Basically, insurance will be critical, there are an enormous number of policies with various limits and application, and it's really, really complicated so stay tuned. Nothing you didn't already know.

Edited by ThenNow
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7 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

For what it's worth, it is not a very substantive piece. Basically, insurance will be critical, there are an enormous number of policies with various limits and application, and it's really, really complicated so stay tuned. Nothing you didn't already know.

If you look at the BSA disclosure update you get an idea of how complex this is.  There are insurance policies for every council listed by date over decades.  Take council xyz, they list the insurance policy year by year (some years they changed mid year).  Each of these policies may have caps on total payouts.  Combine this with the National insurance policies and I wonder how this will ever be settled.

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4 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

If you look at the BSA disclosure update you get an idea of how complex this is.

I tried. Went crosseyed just shy of going blind. Good golly.

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33 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Do Councils have to show Proof of Insurance at Re-Charter?  Is it documented on their recharter forms?

Don't groups (like councils), by law, have to have insurance to conduct activities?

https://www.greatamericaninsurancegroup.com/for-businesses/subproducts-details/specialty-human-services/organizations-we-serve/youth-services

Edited by InquisitiveScouter
added another insurance link
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