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1 hour ago, Armymutt said:

We don't want to expose our CO to the liability.

Probably not the mothers, either. ;) I once had a parent that was so bad I had to engage with his idiocy so he'd leave the other parents alone. I finally got him out of the troop.

However, this issue of COs not ensuring a well run, safe program has been going on for decades. This might be a good way to explain the quality control issue. The BSA's model has always been they provide the program but the CO ensures the program. That's just not happening anywhere.

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What is legally right is not always morally right.

I would encourage everyone to not ask @ThenNow to rehash particular circumstances. They can be found by patiently browsing his posts. From what I read, they were far from legal. His claim would have b

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2 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

"We thought we were just letting them use our space." Yeah, well, oops. That's not going to stop the abuse lawsuit. Your COR signed it, that means you are on the hook.

Our unit went from public school to PTO to friends of to fraternal organization over the last 20 years due to various concerns.  The school prevents us from recruiting (they even took our yard signs from a public right of way and threw them out).  I expect the fraternal order will end the CO soon (once their leadership evaluates the risk vs return).  What is left?  We have no organization that will be willing to sign even a "we provide meeting space" document?

BSA better be ready with an option of no CO charters .... 

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12 minutes ago, gpurlee said:

His definition of church "ownership" of a true Scouting ministry was (1) church adults actively involved in the Scouting program on a regular basis, (2) the church including the Scouting program in its budget just like its youth group and (3) the involvement of youth connected with the church in the Scouting ministry. 

I agree with that definition.

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5 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

We have no organization that will be willing to sign even a "we provide meeting space" document?

BSA better be ready with an option of no CO charters .... 

This is their offered solution - rent a room from SOMEONE and your Council is now your CO.

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8 minutes ago, David CO said:

I agree with that definition.

Yes, Yes David, but as was pointed out to you over and over, that does not mean you get to run BSA as Catholic Scouts of America or whatever. It does not mean your parish gets to take/drag scouts to anti-abortion events.

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2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Anonymity in the press is allowed and not an impotent option. If you perceive it a dead horse, no use for you to whip it regardless your concern for your boys. I get that. I realize you're convinced of the collapse.

It may even be important,.

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1 minute ago, TAHAWK said:

It may even be important,.

I would love to see the narrative include something from Scouters and Scouts. The press would love to run with that. 

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4 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Who is the COR in this case?

You don't have one. Units chartered with the Council have no COR, instead a Scout Professional (S.E., D.E.) signs anything the COR would have to. Your unit has no seat on the Council Board (as a COR would).

It makes your unit an appendage of the Council.

This rolled out for the first time last fall. SO FAR the units I've heard have to use it have tried to use it as a temporary measure, something to do to get through recharter until they can find a CO. But it could, depending on the circumstances, turn into a long term "solution" for units that just cannot find a CO anywhere.

 

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4 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

This is their offered solution - rent a room from SOMEONE and your Council is now your CO.

The form has a signasture line for the CO Rep.  The "Unit" includes a CO.  That may need to change if any "professionals" are to have employment.  Or liability insurance could be part of the registration requirements.

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1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Regarding a few things.

Regarding G2SS, they used Department of Labor Laws to create some of the rules, i.e. the no little red wagons, no power tools, etc at certain ages. I questioned that, brought it to my SE's attention, and he got clarification for me.

Yes, I knew that, but  my point really is that Labor Laws aren't where we should be taking our queues from for Scouting.  Labor laws are designed to protect workers from activities that could be excessively dangerous in a work environment, when done repetitively, over time.  Service projects aren't a work environment; the tools are different, the pace is different and the supervision is different; all of which means things that might be a significant risk in one environment is relatively safe in the other.  4 wheeled carts are dangerous in a work environment because industrial carts are steel, weigh close to 150-250lbs when empty and could crush someone if they over-turn on them.  4 wheeled carts in a service project environment aren't that.  And since people can see that distinction where the rules don't acknowledge it, it causes a lack of respect for those rules.

 

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1 minute ago, elitts said:

Labor laws are designed to protect workers from activities that could be excessively dangerous in a work environment, when done repetitively, over time.

"Are you saying our scouts shouldn't have AT LEAST the same protections as workers in a workplace? What kind of monster are you!"

/sarcasm off

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2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

I appreciate that. I know my suggestion/question seemed directed at YPT bc it was the topic within which I posted it. Sorry. I also mean the desire to see National loosen its grip on HABs in favor of preserving local camps. I know that's not a universally held view here, but for me it's a point heard only on this forum. I know I am not "steeped in this," though. It sounds like you're weary of trying, perhaps. The way I am, I would be screaming at this point, even if into the wind. Sometimes it actually has good results. Others, I just get hoarse and my wife puts me in the basement with a heavy bag and a sedative.

If you need a name and a face I'll volunteer for that. I don't mind getting in anyone's face if I believe in something. How's that song go, freedom is just another way of saying you have nothing less to lose? The Buddhists have a slightly different version of that. Freedom comes from wanting nothing. I have a good story about that but maybe later.

As for letter writing, you make a good point. My guess is the councils are screaming about their camps, but yes, we could join in on that. Mosby never returns my calls, though and I don't have any other contacts. Got any addresses? I can write letters. As for recommendations, that's a bit harder. What I think is needed is beyond coming up with some simple rules. It's a different culture. That's going to take real leadership. How do you suggest finding new leadership? My guess is there are people that have good ideas that are already around, if they haven't been laid off. How do you enable them?

Actually, what about sending ideas to the TCC? They're in a negotiation so what's wrong with them saying they want so much money and they want a training program that measures results and publishes numbers, or whatever they would like to see to ensure progress? Talk about leverage. Honestly, if you could pull off encouraging the TCC to both get the money they want, leave enough of the BSA to survive and fix it's major problems so it could grow, that would be the best long term scenario I can imagine.

Anyway, back to the funny story. I had a scout that just didn't care for scouts. He finally decided he wanted eagle just to get his dad off his back. He was being a major butt so we had the talk - straighten up or I'll never sign off on eagle (before anyone complains I was violating the rules, you're right, save your grief). This scout got very big eyes and went home. I got lots of email and phone calls from people all over the council saying: You can't do that, this scout's dad is on the national board. I said so what, this scout is in my troop and that's all that matters. Long story short, this scout wanted eagle for more than what he thought, he got serious, he became a roll model for all the other scouts and both he and his dad thanked me. It doesn't always work that way but usually it does and every scout that wanted eagle got it. Well, there was one scout that forgot to send the paperwork in, but that's a different story.

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59 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Yes, Yes David, but as was pointed out to you over and over, that does not mean you get to run BSA as Catholic Scouts of America or whatever. It does not mean your parish gets to take/drag scouts to anti-abortion events.

Actually, if those scouts belong to that church what's wrong with taking them to anti-abortion events? Some churches do use the BSA program as their youth program. Period. I can't even imagine what your point is other than the two of you don't like each other. Why are you getting so upset about little details if, in a few months, this whole organization is going down the toilet?

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7 minutes ago, MattR said:

Actually, if those scouts belong to that church what's wrong with taking them to anti-abortion events?

If it is an official BSA troop function, oodles.

As for the shut down, I'm hoping I am wrong, but I don't think I am on this one.

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