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scotteg83

Eagle Scout Extension for new 2019 Scouts

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2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I personally think National just opened up a giant can of worms with this decision. I can see the lawsuits being filed if someone doesn't get the extension or if the extension is long enough to their satisfaction.

Lawsuits would have been filed regardless.  Now they can point to a consistent policy for the 2019 new Scouts instead of what some Councils would have done by pushing exemptions under the following reasons.

To be clear, I don’t know if Nationals would have granted any due to #1 below; however, there may have been groups pushing for exemptions under #3 below.  Now it is clear how to handle the situation.

1. The member joined or rejoined—or became active again after a period of inactivity—in time to complete all requirements before turning 18. That is, the time remaining between joining, or rejoining, and when the Scout turns 18 is more than the total of the active-time requirements for the ranks left to achieve.

 

3. The circumstance is totally beyond the control of the youth member. Injuries, unanticipated family incidents, or various mistakes or omissions by adults, for example, could be legitimate causes. The Boy Scouts of America assumes anyone working on Scouts BSA ranks has a Scouts BSA Handbook  and has read the requirements. Despite this, misinformation from unit leadership is often cited as grounds for extensions. These cases will be considered, but they should be very rare and would point to a need for basic training and assistance.
 
 
Edited by Eagle1993
Clarified how I think it could have been a mess
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1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Assuming no disabilities,  I would hope with an extension, we could expect more work (okay, I'll say it - additional requirements) from a 19-20yr old adult? Eagle candidate.  

Pioneering MB?  Serve as an adult leader? 

My $0.02

I don't see a reason to add requirements. As it is National essentially added the time requirement of "24 months from joining to Eagle"  I think that is enough added work for an 18-19 year old. 

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2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Assuming no disabilities,  I would hope with an extension, we could expect more work (okay, I'll say it - additional requirements) from a 19-20yr old adult? Eagle candidate.  

Pioneering MB?  Serve as an adult leader?

Well, I think there is an "additional requirement" of sorts, in that the Scouts who do this will have 24 months (or less) to go from no-rank to Eagle, of which more than 16 months are time requirements, rather than having 7 years.  There will be no time for pauses and probably very little or no time for sports, robotics, school plays or any other elective activity.  These Scouts will basically be eating, sleeping, going to school (including college), doing homework (hopefully) and doing Scout advancement. 

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3 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

This.  Lawsuits will be the least if their problems.  Now anybody with the slightest reason to want an extension will be able to point at this decision.  If I was the kid we talked about a while back who missed his eagle by a few weeks I'd already have the letter writing campaign started.  Standards are brittle things once bent they tend to break.

We talk often about lawsuits being filed, or the fear there of.  Can anyone list any significant successful lawsuits against BSA , or a troop, or a CO for its membership or advancement policies that actually resulted in a court ordering a change in either advancement or membership.

I play an attorney in my day job, and I can think of almost no grounds for bringing a successful suit that would ever make anyone an eagle scout or force any individual unit to do anything about admitting a particular individual as a member.

This is mostly a boogeyman fear, and as scouters we should be good enough citizens to recognize it as such.

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2 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

I agree. It’s unfair to someone like me. 

 

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

It should be handled the same way current extensions are handled.  It is rare, but there are extensions granted beyond 18.  This just makes it clear how Nationals will handle these extension requests.  

I also expect this exception will be rare.  First, you need a youth to join in 2019 that is 16 or older by Feb 1.  Second they need to be motivated enough to file and extension by Jan 7, 2020.  Third they need to be willing to stay in Scouts probably past High School.  I think we are talking hundreds not thousands of extensions.  

 

 

1 hour ago, scotteg83 said:

I wouldn't even say high hundreds.  Most girls I know at the troop age, want to join for the activities.  I have only met 1 that wants Eagle (but shes young enough to achieve it properly).

The question isn't impact or intention.  It's principle.  The BSA had a perfectly functional, equally applied to all scouts policy.  You have to finish all the work for Eagle by your 18th birthday.  Objective, easy to understand and simple to enforce.  That's why the young man we talked about before had his appeal denied https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/westchester/greenburgh/2018/08/14/greenburgh-teen-loses-eagle-scout-bid-technicality-public-rallies/975027002/, .  This announcement bends that policy, advantaging new scouts over existing scouts. Somewhere in the US there's a boy who joined last year at 16 years old wondering why he's being excluded.  

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2 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

We talk often about lawsuits being filed, or the fear there of.  Can anyone list any significant successful lawsuits against BSA , or a troop, or a CO for its membership or advancement policies that actually resulted in a court ordering a change in either advancement or membership.

I play an attorney in my day job, and I can think of almost no grounds for bringing a successful suit that would ever make anyone an eagle scout or force any individual unit to do anything about admitting a particular individual as a member.

This is mostly a boogeyman fear, and as scouters we should be good enough citizens to recognize it as such.

http://time.com/4978338/boy-scouts-girls-lawsuit-history/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/parents-sue-boy-scouts-america-son-syndrome-stripped/story?id=53890059

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Cub-Scouts-Sued-Transgender-Boy-New-Jersey-Secaucus--412068393.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeaw_v._Boy_Scouts_of_America

Define success.  Your definition of success is written from a lawyers perspective.  The rest of us realize success is just about generating fuel for the perpetually outraged class..

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Stated to type a comment, then realized that I just don't care anymore.    Just glad my two sons, five nephews and I earned Eagle before all this " the sky is falling"  or " a lawsuit is pending" nonsense started.

We often hear adults say that Boy Scouts has changed a lot since they were kids.  But scoutson #4 doesn't  recognize scouting nowdays  and he is only 21.

I guess it's about time to finish that last cup of coffee, hoist my pack, and head down the trail.

Edited by Oldscout448

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32 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Somewhere in the US there's a boy who joined last year at 16 years old wondering why he's being excluded.  

Why didn’t he join earlier?  Was he excluded by BSA due to issues out of his control?  If so, I would expect he could pursue an exemption under #3.  Not sure if it would be granted. 

I would have been fine if BSA would have announced that no exemptions would be granted for girls joining in 2018, at the same time I understand why they decided to do this.

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2 hours ago, scotteg83 said:

I wouldn't even say high hundreds.  Most girls I know at the troop age, want to join for the activities.  I have only met 1 that wants Eagle (but shes young enough to achieve it properly).

It may be less if what I see is true.   Based on what I am seeing in FB discussions:

the scout would either have to complete all the life to Eagle leadership requirements by 18 or transition to Venturing to finish out the leadership requirement.  They would not be able to be a youth leader after 18 in Scouts BSA and ASM is not an approved leadership position for Eagle.  

 

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41 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Why didn’t he join earlier?  

What difference does that make?  The BSA is including first-time boys in their policy exception so clearly they aren't interested in that question. 

My hypothetical 16-year old boy who joined last year, or last week, is no different than the hypothetical 16-year old boy who might join next February 1st.  But, due to this policy, they will be treated differently.  The same holds for a 16.1 year old girl and her 15.9 year old friend that join on Feb. 1.

It's also completely inconsistent with the policy changes for OA Membership.  A 16-year old girl who has been in a crew for two years can be elected to the OA by her crew utilizing her days/nights of camping with the Crew.  So let's assume she did 5 weekends backpacking in preparation for a 12-day Philmont trek.  Good enough for the OA but, she can't utilize those days/nights for Scouts BSA Camping MB or Backpacking MB or activities for T2F?  

Let's be honest, the BSA is bending the standards for girls in an attempt to get outside the field of fire about "fairness."  They include first-time boys in the new policy in an attempt to make it look like it wasn't a girl-only driven exception.  But, because they moved away from a simple objective standard, they've simply muddied the waters again.  In the process they've done a disservice to the girls who make Eagle after their 18th birthday (well, she got an extension that wasn't available to me.....).  

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A 16 year old boy who just joined knew how much time he had and if he could or could not earn Eagle in that time. It would be his choice and I don't think more than a few in the country, if any at all.

The real point is that National it's allowing those who were not in the program before mostly because they were not allowed, to have 24 months to earn eagle. It is simply giving them the opportunity.

There will always be those who just miss a deadline or cutoff date. In my crew there are two girls best friends that do everything together, one turns 18 in January the other mid February. So one has the opportunity to go for the extension and her Eagle while the other does not. I also know twin Eagle Scouts that missed out on getting Palms because of when their Eagle boards were even though they had plenty of merit badges but did not qualify for the retroactive Palms because they turned 18 just a couple of weeks before August 1st 2017

 

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7 minutes ago, Chris1 said:

A 16 year old boy who just joined knew how much time he had and if he could or could not earn Eagle in that time. It would be his choice and I don't think more than a few in the country, if any at all.

I've know of 2 personally so "more than a few in the country, if any at all" is clearly false.

The real point is that National it's allowing those who were not in the program before mostly because they were not allowed, to have 24 months to earn eagle. It is simply giving them the opportunity.

If this was true, in combination with your first assertion, then National wouldn't be including first-time boys in the exception policy.

There will always be those who just miss a deadline or cutoff date. In my crew there are two girls best friends that do everything together, one turns 18 in January the other mid February. So one has the opportunity to go for the extension and her Eagle while the other does not. I also know twin Eagle Scouts that missed out on getting Palms because of when their Eagle boards were even though they had plenty of merit badges but did not qualify for the retroactive Palms because they turned 18 just a couple of weeks before August 1st 2017

If National hadn't put this policy in place, the two girls in your crew wouldn't be in that situation.  The Palms decision was also poorly taken.

  

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Does  any of this really surprise anyone?

All waivers/extensions will be approved.

There will be those who are already high school graduates join and do their 24 months as a college student.  

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1 hour ago, Oldscout448 said:

Stated to type a comment, then realized that I just don't care anymore.    Just glad my two sons, five nephews and I earned Eagle before all this " the sky is falling"  or " a lawsuit is pending" nonsense started.

We often hear adults say that Boy Scouts has changed a lot since they were kids.  But scoutson #4 doesn't  recognize scouting nowdays  and he is only 21.

I guess it's about time to finish that last cup of coffee, hoist my pack, and head down the trail.

Maybe its just local conditions. I'm 25. When former Scouts visit our childhood troop, they say hi to me, and after observing they almost always joke: "Wow, things really haven't changed much." They're both right and wrong.

I think the BSA as an organization has changed quite a bit. I feel like that pace of change has accelerated. But I still recognize the BSA from when I joined back in 2005. My Troop hasn't changed much from all these policy changes. 

Requirements change, uniforms change, membership policies change, but the core activities and methods of Scouting haven't changed in my little pocket of Scouting, and I'm going to my best to keep it that way.

We all have breaking points and decision points for our membership. I won't curse folks on their way out. I won't hassle newer folks who are coming in fresh. God only knows when I hit mine. Whether it's policies we don't like, life circumstances, or just aging, we all eventually leave the program. 

 

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13 minutes ago, PACAN said:

Does  any of this really surprise anyone?

All waivers/extensions will be approved.

There will be those who are already high school graduates join and do their 24 months as a college student.  

I don't see a problem with this. If a soon-to-be-young-adult wants to put their shoulder to the wheel at this window of opportunity, no problem, I'll gladly support them. If another S2BYA's timing precludes it, no problem, I can point them to other summits and if they help me lead my unit I most definitely will support them.

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