desertrat77

Scout leader basic training, '85: Ferocious Ferrets. Not the weirdest name in history, but the patrol yell was a high-pitched ree-ree sound that went on for at least ten seconds. Not in sync by any means, but definitely frantic, loud and rabid. Lots of laughter and strange glances from bystanders.

True! BSA already owns the land.

Not sure if they lease or own in Irving, but they may save a bit of money in the long run by moving it to Philmont. I could not get over how many people--visitors, trainees, trekkers--I saw at Philmont during my drop-by visit this last summer. The audience is there. I recall visiting the Seton museum when I was a scout, killing time before we started our trek. Very quiet and just a small number of folks browsing. Almost 40 years later, when I revisited, the museum was like Grand Central Station. Lots of folks coming and going. Big gift shop too. Hey, the Philmont Trading Post is open year round! Well run and staffed. Huge place, incredible amount of merchandise.

I think this is a good move for National. Not sure what their visitation rate is at the current location, but it's going to greatly increase after the move. I visited Philmont mid-summer, the first time in many years. Looking at a chart near the logistics building, the number of folks going on a trek have darn near doubled since I did a trek in the '70s. And the training center was doing a booming business. RememberSchiff hit the nail on the head: it's time for National to recognize Green Bar Bill. Long overdue. His contributions to the BSA are historical, substantial, and timeless. He was a true Scouter in every sense of the word.

Great discussion! If precedence/tradition is strong, it should continue. But...perhaps...instead of a plaque, how about a pocket knife? Doesn't have to be fancy. Just a basic model will do. Or a mess kit. Or a camping spoon/knife/fork set? They'll use a gift like that. It will be part of their new adventures on the scouting trail. And a few will manage to hang on to it. It'll be a prized memento.

May I recommend something heretical? Don't present them a plaque. Or anything else, aside from the AOL patch and their new Boy Scout neckerchief. I still have my first neckerchief from bridging night, fortysomething years hence. It's faded and well worn, but it is one of my most valued scout treasures.

I was asked several tough questions at my board, but that wasn't one of them ('77). It sounds like a "gotcha" question with no real pay off for the board or the scout. "Yes indeed, I'd proudly wear my uniform to school" is the textbook answer. The scout says that convincingly. But is it the truth? "No I would not" may be the truth but it casts a slight bit of gloom on the proceedings. The scout is honest and he may have legit reasons why he doesn't wear his uniform to school. Perhaps he articulates said reasons. But there it is, and the board members may or may not appreciate the scout's frank answer. Is the question about the uniform or the scout's integrity? I'm all for a tough board of review, but some questions are of little/no value, and this is one of them. I sat on a Eagle board not long ago, and a couple questions in a similar vein were presented.

I'm in favor of letting the youth decide. Good call by National.

The link doesn't work, is there another?

Matt, I understand. It is indeed a whole new era. It used to be "if you mess up, fess up" and while it didn't magically make all consequences go away, it certainly made them less severe. Taking ownership is a big step.

Certainly...as it relates to the discussion, the aforementioned Frank was a fairly common character in the senior scout ranks in the '70s. Usually, Frank was an otherwise good scout, trainer, student, etc. If all of the Franks of the '70s were kicked out of the BSA, there would have been quite a loss in the number of senior scouts. Just my unscientific observation of having been a scout back then in three different councils. As I recall the prevailing attitude, Frank kept his private affairs private, or at least discrete. If Frank was caught, there may have been consequences. But none on the order of the automatic/zero tolerance permanent legal record of today, or the stigma of wearing the letter "D" for dope head. It was a reflection of the times, for good or ill. In a similar vein, if the BSA had somehow managed to bust all of the adult leaders back then who may have had a beer after taps, there would have been a gaping hole in the scouter ranks. They didn't get drunk or obvious (except one time I recall), it was just the tradition of grown men having a beverage at the end of a trying day. Fast forward to 2016. Frank receives zero tolerance today. And if a Scoutmaster Bob were caught having a wee dram of sippin' whiskey at the end of a long day at the camporee, it would be his last day in scouting, forever. Do I advocate pot smoking and beer drinking during BSA events? No. What I am pointing out is that even in the '70s, if folks were caught doing stuff like that, they'd have a good talking to, and stronger consequences depending on the circumstances. Today? No slack. They are done and will never recover. No extenuating circumstances. Stigmatized permanently. I'm all for the stricter rules about youth protection and bullying. Long overdue.

Regardless of rules and regulations, if people have pride in a uniform, they will wear it. Rain or shine.

Stricter in rules, yes. Some of that was definitely needed. But there is also a stricter tone, if that is the right word, among volunteers. Perhaps a better phrase is "less tolerant." The trend is "the kid made a mistake, kick him out/don't let him make the next rank/he's no Eagle" etc. Or there is no mistake, just the appearance of something that doesn't match a particular scouter's beliefs. Criticism, judgment follow. An old squadron commander shared this with me regarding decision making, particularly when it came to punishment: You have to balance the need of the military with the needs of the individual. Err too much towards the individual, the military suffers. Err too much towards the military, the individual suffers. Youth are going to make mistakes. They must have the room to recover, if possible.

In some ways, scouting is stricter today than it was in the '70s.

@@clemlaw, thanks for the info re the website, and thanks to all for the interesting discussion. I went to the scouting alum link, and registered as a Hiker (freebie route; Pathfinder is 35 dollars per year). Here's what I found. I'm a life member of NESA, and it looks like the data transition from NESA to the central scouting alum website may have been a big clunky. I searched and found my name in the Eagle website, but my middle initial was incorrect. Elsewhere, my Eagle troop was one digit off. If you find errors in your profile, many can be self corrected. Some must be fixed by National, and they have a phone number to call (normal business hours). The website aside, I've found that the BSA as a whole does a very poor job when it comes to history and record keeping. My first experience along these lines happened years ago. I earned Eagle in '77, and weeks after the board of review, we moved. I didn't get back any of the Eagle paperwork, letters of recommendation, etc. No problem, National okay'd me and I received my Eagle certificate at my new location. So I join the military seven years later, and my first duty station is in the same town where I earned Eagle. I drop in the council office and ask if there is a chance they still have my paperwork, or at least a file. They were nice but frank with me. Normally, there would have been a high probability they would have had my stuff. But someone made the decision a year or two previous to toss out a bunch of records, decades worth, Eagle and otherwise. It was a local decision and reading between the lines, they threw away more than they probably should have. I didn't expect them to hang on to my paperwork in the off chance I'd stop by some day, I realize that a business can only keep so many records. Nonetheless, in my scouting experience since then, I've noticed that institutional memory in the BSA is very scant--digital, paper, what have you. I don't think there is a enterprise-level plan.

I've been a UC in five different councils. I will strive never to be one again. Much happier and more productive as a committee chair. Some units welcomed me, others were suspicious, a few were outright hostile. Most were surprised that a UC even showed up and was interested in how things were going. I helped as much as could. Truthfully, I continually thought "If I really wanted to help this troop, I'd resign as UC and apply to be an ASM."

In '85, while I was at scout leader basic training, a staffer pulled two attendees--a Viet Nam vet and me--aside and took us to task for wearing sheath knives. Staffer stressed they were not allowed by BSA policy, and wearing/using them set a bad example for the youth. (!?) Well. We disagreed, but since this was the last weekend of a tedious course (the previous 3 weekends were spent in a church annex listening to this staffer and his pals condescend to us), we complied. Everybody was ready to graduate and put the course behind us. While the staffer was chewing us out, he was smoking a cigarette. Today, many camporee and summer camp leaders' guides usually have a hyperventilating-type prohibition like "SHEATH KNIVES ARE STRICTLY FORBIDDEN!" Signs of the times.

Kind of all over the map.

@@Stosh, an old phrase from school comes to mind re Class A/Bs: "Usage determines meaning." :)

As a scout, I was in several troops. One was very gear-heavy. Five patrols, all equipped with a ton of stuff. Heavy tents. Old metal munition boxes that served as chuck boxes. Etc. Camp outs weren't much fun. Hours spending loading trucks, unloading stuff at campsites, setting stuff up, taking stuff down, reloading said stuff, unloading it yet again, sitting on the side of the scout hut (an old WWII barracks) re-scrubbing stuff (with soap and cold water from the spigot) and refolding and repacking stuff, hauling it upstairs (second floor of the barracks was the quartermaster's realm). We spent more time dealing with gear than anything else. At least it seemed that way. Once I was introduced to backpacking, I knew "this is the way to go."

Our lodge went from "ordeal" to "experience." "...the Fall Experience." Just doesn't sound right.

The BSA used to help during disasters. But not much since the '70s or so. I think the BSA as a whole has moved away from such service. However, I agree with Stosh, Venture Crews would be ideal. Helping those in need is Job 1, but it sure doesn't hurt to generate good PR and community goodwill. No need to wear the uniform. A bright tshirt with BSA and a fdl might be the ticket. Kudos @@Stosh for "walking the walk" and helping those in need.

Nothing wrong with school. But kids still need outdoor adventure. They need challenges--unstructured and semi-structured--that push them. Getting away from technology, hovering parents and teachers, and learning to stand on their own two feet. I was in the military for 30 years. I saw first hand the results of too much structure and too much spoon feeding. Even in the military, structured as it is, there are many instances, particularly in the field, where orders are unclear, resources are limited, and individual courage and initiative are essential Even for the one-striper. Some young folks are just dumbfounded. They've always been told what to do, how to do it, where to be, what time to be there, what to wear. Etc. They are better than that.

Organized/led by adults. Pay your money. Get fed by the staff. No need for PLs or SPLs. Just get in line. Don't be late to class. Sit on a picnic bench. I'm with @@RememberSchiff, this event sounds like school.

The banquet was a big deal (May '76). After a day of hard work, silence, and scant rations, it was awesome! First class meal (steamship round, real mashed potatoes, homemade pies, etc.). Prepared to perfection. Even the old camp mess hall had been scrubbed and decorated for the occasion. All the more surreal because normal summer camp chow was never in the same galaxy as this meal, at least in this mess hall. Typically it was average fare, at best. But not that day. I haven't been to an ordeal in decades. But it sounds like some parts of the Order are cutting corners.