desertrat77

I've got a couple old BSA sheath knives. Younger folks, scout and adult alike, get a kick looking at them and mulling over the concept that once upon a time, carrying a sheath knife was considered a perfectly normal activity in the BSA. As scout in Alaska, I carried a Buck 102 bird/trout sheath knife for years. Came in handy many times. Now it's fairly common to read summer camp and camporee guides that state "NO SHEATH KNIVES" in all caps.

This paragraph warms my cold, cold heart...proof that the Nervous Nellies who blanch at the sight of a sheath knife haven't completely taken over the BSA: (italics from the original) _______ KnivesA sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. The BSA believes choosing the right equipment for the job at hand is the best answer to the question of what specific knife should be used. We are aware that many councils or camps may have limits on the type or style of knife that should be used. The BSA neither encourages nor bans fixed-blade knives nor do we set a limit on blade length. Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature. We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility. Remember—knives are not allowed on school premises, nor can they be taken aboard commercial aircraft. References: Boy Scout Handbook, Fieldbook, Bear Handbook, and Wolf Handbook

Stosh, that's the kicker! It still boggles to the mind to consider that a WBer who went thru the old training was suddenly considered "untrained" when the WB 21 course rolled around. Somewhat ironic too, given that many old WBers went thru courses that were a) by invitation only and b) much more rigorous that today's WB.

If you have previous leadership/management/organizational training in the military, college, or business world, this is not taken into account. No beads? Then it is assumed you, the non-WBer, have no experience, no credibility, no self initiative for improvement and are otherwise content to provide substandard service to scouting because of your willful non-attendance at WB. Lest I be accused of exaggerating, I have had WBers tell me these things with a straight face. A rather remarkable recruiting program, eh what?

Tampa, your observations match mine. At the end of the day, the issue isn't "wow, that's a club I want to join but can't." More like: "I see the hoops, I see the results...no thanks." I'm sure the WB community will continue to thrive without me

Indeed, but WB is the "first hoop" and yea verily, my mileage has varied with regards to many of the club members. Thanks but no thanks.

@@TAHAWK, I won't presume to answer for Joe Bob, but from my perspective, the Good Olde Boy Club is not exclusively one gender. All persons who are willing to jump thru the prescribed hoops are eligible for membership. The historic club name is just so darn identifiable one hesitates to alter it....

Right on the money, Mr. Bob.... STEM is vital but there is a point when a scout needs to dump the book bag, pack a sandwich and an apple, fill the canteen, and hit the trail. Going back to the classroom on the weekends for more academics will not be an appealing thought for many scouts--even those with STEM interests. At best, BSA STEM will always be a side show, and not the big recruiting draw National thinks it will be. The most positive thing I can say about BSA STEM: check out the STEM treks at Philmont. STEM in action! http://www.philmontscoutranch.org/stemtrek.aspx

Very sad. Thoughts and prayers.

Mr. Bob, you said it best.

@@jjlash, outstanding summary, thank you! Interesting and informative, I appreciate you taking the time to provide us the write up. I did a trek at Philmont in '77. Been trying to get back ever since. Congratulations to you and your crew.

Thanks for the good news, Uncle P!

I like Krispy Kreme donuts, but DD edges out them by just a bit. Bonus: DD coffee!

Stosh, that is a good summation.

Stosh, there is quite a rank/promotion structure in MOS. Several tiers, lots of different beads, paint on claw tips, honors, etc. The youth have their track, the adults theirs. In the adult arena, it is very political and close knit, almost like a fraternal order.

@@NJCubScouter, you make excellent points. But I think the theme I've seen in Mom's posts over the last months can be summed up thusly: - Conflict between SM and scout - Unnecessary red tape and slow-leak-paperwork processing by unit and district - Spontaneous policy changes - Irregular meeting habits I'm all for the benefit of the doubt and patience being a virtue. However, there is a time to cut bait, and I think this is that time.

A couple of additional thoughts: I attended Bartle for 1 session (10 days?), 1 summer. So my reflections are about 3 decades old and truly a snap shot in time. My home unit was in another state, serving in the same troop with the friend who nominated me (he was SM, I was an ASM). We both went Bartle that session as part of the old unit that my friend was member of as a youth. It was a homecoming for my friend, a first-time event for me. Previously, I'd heard my friend talk about MOS many times over the years, and I was impressed. Once I arrived at Bartle, I saw that MOS was very much part of the fabric of the camp. Though I was inducted later that session, I had several days to experience what life was like as a non-MOS guy at Bartle, and at times it got on my nerves. And I have pretty thick skin. That said, the induction was an honor. Ceremonies were outstanding--better than any I'd seen in the OA, and I was a pretty big proponent of the OA at the time. The values that MOS teaches are in direct conflict with the us/them attitudes that I experienced. It's an insular environment. I rather doubt that HR Bartle, the great scouter that founded MOS, would approve of the unscoutlike attitudes.

+1 Say adios to the old troop as soon as possible.

Good question. As I look back, it was quite an honor to be nominated by a close friend who has since passed away. He came up thru the ranks as a youth. The main benefits are intangible--nominated by my friend, impressive ceremonies, learning the principles/values of Mic O Say. Tangible--none outside of Bartle. While I have good memories about it, I also recall the condescending spirit that seemed to pop up regularly that week. "We are in, and the rest of you are out." The adults were the absolute worse, though. That said, I would still encourage you son to strive for nomination. When my daughter was a freshman on the swimming team, she said she didn't like how demeaning the seniors were, and doubted whether she should stay on the team. I offered this: don't give up on something good because of some donkeys. And when progressing through the higher grades, you can set an example of mutual respect and understanding. I feel the same way about Mic O Say.

I attended summer camp at Bartle in the '80s as an adult, and became a member of Mic O Say. It is a neat organization. However, I recall a very heavy-handed "us/them" spirit in the camp. Instead of displaying a respectful quiet pride, many MOS members lorded their status over the non-MOS often. Scouts and scouters. At times it bordered on being obnoxious. The OA has been guilty of this in the past as well. I have no problem with organizations like MOS and OA, but good grief, carry yourself with some dignity if you get chosen. The put downs and puffed up attitudes reflect poorly.

May I ask what year you attended?

They know they don't have the qualifications, but they are at peace with it. What's going to happen? Are they going to be fired from their volunteer position? Not likely. The positions are too hard to fill. As it relates to WB sign up, they may deduce they can sign up, though untrained, and no one will say a word. Or be told wink/nudge, just put in your app with a check and you are golden. Serious question from a non-WBer: is the lack of position training a true detriment to the program? Seems to me that WB is an entirely different deal from the old days when it was by invitation only. Even if the candidates have had position training, they can be the greenest scouters in the BSA and still be eligible to attend. Does this slow down the agenda?

Yes. But the rigor seems to be a thing of the past.

Stumbling around with eyes glued to a smart phone. Looking for cartoon characters. It's 2016. I guess real plants and animals are just too boring.

Stosh, I agree 100 percent. You can imagine what "management" consists of at that camp, day to day, hurt eagles aside.