Eagle94-A1

Reviving this thread because an email was sent out today that my council has a conditional charter. Trying to figure out what the heck is going on, and what to expect. I am expecting the worse. The 'reduced in force" the DFS and 2 other pros. And the plan on realigning the renaming DEs.

Actually there was a survey or questionnaire on the matter. But from the questions on the survey, the manner in which they conducted the survey, and the results they excluded from the survey, it seemed that the decision was already made. The questions were very biased towards the decision they wanted. Anyone taking it would have known what answers they wanted. as they really didn't give options The manner in which they conduced it ticked off a lot of folks, professionals included. First national informs the SEs and council presidents and commissioner, DAYS PRIOR TO A NATIONAL SCOUT JAMBOREE ( emphasis) that they want these town halls done by a a date that was 15 days after jamboree ended. When it was announced, many SEs council presidents and commissioners were either on their way to jambo, or already there on staff. My council key 3 were furious at the short notice of it, as they were only able to schedule 1 town hall prior to the date. Then in order to have a town hall, all three people had to be present. THEN only those attending the town hall could take the survey. In my neck of the woods, were were given so short notice, that only 14 people were able to attend FROM A 15+ COUNTY AREA ( emphasis). I was the only one who could make it from my district. They had a second one scheduled, but it was AFTER the deadline, so thsoe folks were unable to take the poll. Then when the results were tabulated, LDS members in the Western Region were excluded from the results. Don';t know about the rest of the regions, but some booklet that was published had a foot note stating that fact. Why would you leave out 18+% of the membership out of the poll? What i find intersting is that the booklet did nto have the results of the poll. In fact I cannot find the results of the poll published in any BSA publication. Instead National used non-member polls to justify their decison.

You are not joking about unit leader personality affecting unit culture. SM is the one who does not understand why they need to camp every month, and stated he did not like camping. He also earned Eagle in the 1970s when camping was not required. When I last conducted ITOLs, it was specifically for him and his ASMs, as he just assumed SM, and none of the adults were trained, let alone gone through ITOLS. He showed up, and no one else did because "it's too cold to camp." Temps were in the upper 30s, lower 40s. I do not know if it is still the case, but at one point all leadership positions were appointed by him. Rationale was the same boys kept getting elected over and over, and everyone needs a chance to be a leader for advancement. Multiple UCs (when we had them) have been sent in to help him out, including several former ASMs from that troop. They have been ignored, told Scouting needs to change with the times, and worse, told they don't know what they are talking about. I stopped trying to help when I was not only accused of stealing his Scouts (Webelos Crossing Over into Scouts) but also accused me of trying to take over a Cross Over Ceremony for our troops when the OA backed out at the last minute, and the CM asked me to write a single ceremony script incorporating the two troops. Sadly the district is on life support. We do not have out own DE, but have been sharing one for years now. I hate to say it, but I lost count how long it has been without a FT, dedicated DE. I think it has been 7 years now, at least. Volunteers on the district have been burned out and frustrated by pros. Several have quit over pros overruling them and/or taking over events and duties they are responsible for. I would say we have a Key Three now, but no one has seen out DE since university of Scouting/Council Silver Beaver and Eagle Luncheon that was advertised with 2 weeks notice. That was a month ago. Prior to that, I honestly can't remember when I last saw him, maybe the district camporee. Regarding the troop, they had major issues in the past. Hopefully things have changed. They got a friend of mine as ASM who likes to camp. Challenge is that due to health issues, he can only car camp. While there is nothing wrong with car camping, it seems that is all they do. I have seen one ASM show up to camporee in a popup camper.

I think you are right. National has focused solely on folks getting Eagle, and it has spread downward through the ranks. Heck I had one SM tell me one of my Scouts was wasting his htime because he took a MB he already had a second time because he enjoyed it. Instead that Scout should have been taking MBs he needed for Eagle. Scouting and summer camp in particular should be about fun. In all honesty I do not think he had fun in Scouting. He did it because his mother pushed. As for meeting the purpose, again I don't think so. Scouting is suppose to prepare you for life. And he is afraid of leaving his family to go to college. I have only seen this once before in an Eagle, and it was one form the same troop. He passed up scholarships to out of town universities to stay with his family. I know, I know, meeting the requirements. He met them. Thankfully I have been extremely fortunate in that regard. Every Eagle who has asked for a letter has been outstanding. I even went to bat for one Eagle who had some delays in his EBOR due to his dear old Uncle Sam sending him to San Antonio for sometraining.

WOW! Every single troop I have been involved with in 6 different councils over 30 year has gone to summer camp as a troop. I really feel sorry for your Scouts.

I am a big proponent of summer camp because that is the place where bonding with the troop happens faster because you are there, with your buddies, 24/7. Further for many Scouts, summer camp is the first time away from their parents for an extended period. We did ask about why he didn't go to summer camp, and the reason was he did not want to be away from his family that long. Now he is almost 18, leaving for college in the fall, and is worried about how he will handle being away from his family. While he met the requirements for Eagle, he not only did get the full experience Scouting had to offer, but also is not prepared to leave the nest. He is an Eagle, pending National approval, but Scouting, whether locally or nationally, has failed to prepare him for life IMHO.

Last night I sat on an Eagle Board of Review. I admit I was surprised when found out who it was because I had not seen them in 5 years. I admit life threw him and his family some curve-balls and could understand why he wasn't around. But the shock involved weekend and long term. Found out that his troop goes to the same 4 places all the time, and they are in conjunction with merit badge universities. That is definitely the troop's fault. BUT here is the kicker in the 6 years he has been registered as a Scout, he has never been to a week long summer camp. That's right... NEVER BEEN TO A WEEK LONG SUMMER CAMP! (emphasis). I wondered how he could ever earn Camping MB, and looked it up. A week long camp out MAY (emphasis) be used to meet the 20 days and nights of camping. So who failed the Scout: Troop, National, or both?

Lots of good advice. A few other thoughts. 1. Contact the council to get a transcript of their advancement records. I have seen Scouts get delayed because council records were messed up. 2. MAKE COPIES OF EVERYTHING! I have had a Scout "never turn in the paperwork." when he had a photo of him turning in the paperwork. Another time a Scout's BOR signed application was "never turned in," when the paperwork for the other 2 EBORs that night were received and processed.

I think folks are forgetting the origins of the Boy Scouts. The program was designed to allow Scouts to do things on their own or with their patrols. Anyone remember the First Class journey requirement? It was a 14 mile round trip journey by foot or boat.It could be done by yourself or with another Scout. And it cold be all day, or include an overnigt camp out. Venturing is not what Scouting should become, rather Venturing is what Scouting use to be. The purpose of Scouting wasn't to earn ranks, but develop independance and skills needed for life. The Ranks just showed what skills you had mastered and what you were capable of doing. Advancement wasn't the whole focus of the program like it is today. And I am afraid for Venturing. Not only has its numbers dropped, the powers that be at National have started make it more like Scouts BSA. Instead of awards, they now have ranks. While there has always been a recommended uniform, there is a greater push for it now. And there are some limits as to what they can and cannot do. When I was in college, it was starting a outdoor r. I mentioned the advantages of being a High Adventure Explorer post, but no one was interested because of all the BSA's rules. As others stated, they could do the same activities on their own.

It is extremely challenging. Not only are you responsible for keeping up with all their advancement, you are also responsible for teaching them and supervising them. One experienced Scout to 8 new Scouts and you will get overwhelmed. And the new Scouts will get frustrated. Compared to a Traditional Patrol where an experienced Scout buddies up with a new Scout to teach and help supervise.

And NSPs are an adult organizational concept. In one trop I was in with that used NSPs, scouts from 4 different packs were put into a NSP. Some of those Scouts joined with the intent of being with friends, who happened to be in different patrols. It was not a good year in the troop. One of the complaints, among many, we had back in 1986-87 when we were the guinea pigs trying out the NSP concept. While not everyone will be a Scout, if you deliver the promise, the outdoors, they will come. If you have a true youth led program, instead of adults conctantly overruling and contradicting the youth leaders, it will be successful. Troop I am currently with has 2 Scouts were never in Cubs. Agree, if it is no the Scout's idea to be in the unit, they will come up with any excuse. Worse, they will cause major problems that affect the other Scouts. THIS!

This^^^

My thoughts. I. HATE. NEW. SCOUT. PATROLS! In 34 years of seeing them used, I have never seen it used successfully. Either the Troop Guide, or Patrol Leader as I was called when my troop was asked to try it out in 1986 before it became the recommendation in 1989, gets overwhelmed working with bunch of new Scouts by himself, or adults need to intervene so much that it becomes Webelos 3. OPERATION FIRST CLASS, as the idea was originally called in 1989, is based on skewed data. More on that later

I am going from memory here, so bear with me. The COR or IH must write a letter with name, and if possible the membership ID, to the Scout Exec and Registrar stating the person is to be removed from the unit charter.

Regarding the handbook, my council finally got the boy's version.They tried to sell me one, and I told them I needed it last year for the youngest. While there is some good information in the book, there is so much more current information available online. I mentioned how those "New" books are already outdated as there have been 2 sets of requirement changes since the girls' version came out. In all honesty, the BSHB is more for record keeping than anything else nowadays. Which brings me to why I understood BORs requiring the BSHB: IT IS THE ORIGINAL OFFICIAL RECORD. (emphasis added, not shouting). The Advancement Report, Troop computer tracking system, Internet Advancement, council records, ad nauseum all must agree with the signatures in the Scout's book. If there is ever a discrepancy in any records, EVEYTHING NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED TO THE DATE SIGNED IN THE HANDBOOK. (again emphasis) Over the years, I have seen unit and council records messed up. Most of the time easily corrected and with no rush, but twice now I have personally seen the incorrect council dates delay a young man earning his Eagle. In both cases, the handbook was used to used to correct the council records. So having the book at the BOR so that the Scout can be signed off that night does indeed make sense.

I am going to take this point by point as an example of what some councils are not doing or are poorly doing. Sadly some council camps are not being maintained, despite the willingness of volunteers to provide free labor. Where to begin on this one. I've seen some summer camps be "merit badge mills" will poor program, and everyone on the roster, even if they didn't show up, get the merit badge. I have seen camps that did not have enough supplies for the Scouts, i.e. basketry kits, wood carving kits, carving knives, paddles, etc. With the basketry shortage, Scouts were "sharing kits" each working on half of the project. Worse was the aquatics staff not having enough canoes to take a full class out on the water at one time. But the absolute worst was the lack of undamaged rescue tubes at the pool. One camp did not have a single undamaged rescue tube by the end of the second week. thank goodness I had the old 'hand to hand combat" lifeguard course that taught rescues without equipment. One tube came off the leash and shot away while I was doing an active victim skills checkoff. can you imagine what could have happened if it was for real. Also that same camp didn't have enough staff to run an adequate program. Kinda sad when you are relying on a specific number of BSA Lifeguard candidates to meet the safety regs. IOLS and BALOO are few and far between. And there is a heavy emphasis of doing online training. Which in a rural area can cause problems. He had one person take over 4 hours to download and do YPT2.1 We had to beg to get the syllabus and do live class YPT2.1. let's face it, popcorn is overpriced. What marketing materials? My district has lost so much membership because of lack of recruiting, we are down to 3 packs and 7 troops. When volunteers want to do their own recruiting, we are told NO. I will give credit where due. They are doing this. NO. When volunteers come forward, they either get overwhelmed and burned out, or every time they try to do something, they are told no. And sometimes it is both. Pros are not listening to the volunteers and COs. Sad thing is that it wasn't always like this. SEs set the tone.

I have calmed down enough to comment on the "Freeloader Unit" title that @Cburkhardt uses to describe units "that attend camp out of council, don’t participate in district or council activities, don’t assist the council or district financially (through FOS, product sales or otherwise) and don’t assist by participating in activities or training events." But @desertrat77 pretty much nails it with why units I've been in that are "freeloaders" are they way they are. Further, @Sentinel947 spot on that adding fees will make it worse. When National increased the registration fee, people dropped, and some decided not to honor the FOS payments to cover the cost of the increase. My district is suffering, and we are getting no support from the council. We have been sharing a DE for 7 to 10 years now. To make matters worse, when volunteers get together to organize stuff and get things done, the council interferes and either says "no" or adds so much stuff that it burns out volunteers. Best example is the district camporee. One volunteer organized a work day for folks in the district to go to camp and get it ready for camporee. Council said "NO." Yes, they turned down free labor. A few year back, the DE, without consulting with the camporee co-chairmen or anyone else in the districts involved, decided to add a Cub Scout event at the same time and place as the joint district camporee. When the chairs try to discuss their concerns with having a 3rd event going on {Camporee and ItOLS were scheduled), we were told it would happen or we could step down. Since camporee was a week or two away, I stepped down Sunday morning of camproee.

Sadly I was told by my Director of Field Service, the #2 person in a council, that I didn't need to meet with any of Institutional Heads (IHs) when I was a DE. When I mentioned it was part of the charter agreement, I was told not to worry about it as I didn't have time for it.

Orwell was definitely ahead of his time. Then again, this was something he saw first hand in the Spanish Civil War.

I see that the FAQs still has the incorrect statement that Dodgeball has never been an approved activity. I wonder how much longer it will take to correct that? Any idea @RichardB ?

Don't know about the US Citizenship test, but when I had a group of 5 HS aged Scouts who had Civics already and a 5th grade homeschooled Webelos, NONE of the HS students could talk to me about the various components of the Cit Nat MB, except their favorite monument in DC, which we did the day before. The 5th grader on the other the other hand, did know the answers and could talk about them.

With all due respect, while the training may be only 90 minutes, depending upon geographical location, it may take over 4 hours to download the materials to do the training. I am fortunate in that I have high speed internet at home. But other folks in my district, which is extremely rural, do not have access top high speed internet. One reason why we begged the SE to be allowed in person YP training, and had a group of about 12 from all over attend.

There are a lot of variables in the openess issue IMHO. Sometimes the pro's know the issue will be contentious and they don't want to deal with it until they absolutely have too. I put the Philmont mortgage in that category. Selling a council camp would be another. While a volunteer council committee is suppose to approve these decisions, in reality most committees are "yes men" Another reason for lack of openess is to prevent people from finding out how screwed up things really are. And sometimes that lack of openess applies to the DEs. When I interviewed and looked at information at my job interview and first planning conference, a lot of things that another council did when I interviewed with them didn't happen. It was several months into the job that I found out the full extent of how screwed up the council was. Sometimes the lack of openess is because the professional does not have the capability to change things directly. They work behind the scenes to correct matters to the extent possible so that those parts of the movement that are working, that are making a difference, do not get damaged by the revelation of issues. Sometimes the lack of openess is the result of prior experience. I know one SE who as a DFS with 2 FDs and 12 DEsunder him that encountered a problem, revealed it, and fixed it. His reward: "promotion" to SE of a council of 1 FD and 4 DEs.

"Impressive. Most impressive."

YES!!!!!!!!!!!! At one accident I was stopped and provided first aid at, the first person on the scene wanted to take off the motorcycle helmet off the potential spinal injury. The girl I was dating at the time, myself, and two others who approached the scene at the same time we did heard the initial person say he was going to remove the helmet, and all 4 of us screamed "NO" at the same time. That's when the other couple announced they were an ER doctor, and a trauma nurse. Taking off the helmet would have required moving the head, which was not an option.