Eagle94-A1

We have lost a lot of respected Scouters over the past few years. Don't ask them for FOS, council Eagle/UoS luncheon, popcorn, etc. But they see you selling spaghetti dinner tickets for a troop fundraiser, they'll pay for dinners to be given to local first responders.

Actually the lead lawyer stated in an NPR interview on the Diane Rheem (sp) Show that he wants the BSA dissolved . It is towards the end of the interview, and if you end early, you miss it.

We lost scouts in my area because of the EXTREMELY (emphasis) last minute price changes. We were told by our SE it could be $100/person last year. I would not have been able to afford it, and was thankful it was only $60. But this year ANY increase will hurt. I'm lucky, I am considered essential and still working. But we have folks who have been furloughed, lost their jobs, or cannot open their businesses back up. My wife works part-time has been partially furloughed, she is working 1 day a pay period. But the way things are going, she may lose her job. I honestly do not know what I will do if the fees increase yet again. I do know I am glad my oldest has his Eagle Board of Review next week. As much as he wants to stay involved after Eagle, I do not know if we could afford it.

@Cburkhardt, yes THANK YOU VERY MUCH for the sharing and insights. ( And yes that is me shouting at the top of my lungs in appreciation, ). I admit I am extremely skeptical of national. I am just wondering how this will affect my troop.

You are right, helicopters have been around for a while. But as I said previously it is the term "FAMILY SCOUTING" is the problem, not girls in Scouting. The general population equates "Family Scouting" to "Family Camping," and not "brothers and sisters" in Scouting. BSA has advertised as Scouting for the whole family, and for the general public that includes adults. And BSA has not helped matters. Do you remember the Scouting Magazine issue dedicated to family camping? Do you remember that the ages of the children were SCOUTS BSA aged youth? That was a major mixed message. And I am seeing more of the helicopter parents since the term "Family Scouting" first cameout. I'm glad you have not had the issues I have faced. And I admit I did not agree with the decisions of the SM in my old troop. Instead of trying to mentor and compromise with the adults for over 19 months, after the third instance of the adult not following the instructions and interfering I would have had a conference and give them an ultimatum: follow the troops' rules, or we can help you find a troop that will meet your needs better. I told the other adults that they were hurting the other Scouts in the troop in their attempt to save the Scouts of the helicopters. But I can tell you the discussions on this matter all included the terms "Family Friendly" "Family Scouting," and "Family Camping" all interchangably. And those parents constantly reminded us that BSA gives them every right to accompany their child to any activity. At least until the 72 hour rule went into effect 0ctober 1, 2018. That is what the COR used to fix the problem,and save the troop. But even when parents camp away, I have seen issues. Remember the nightmare camp out I told you about? The two adults causing the problems were camping with the Webelos in a different campsite. No policy prevented them from driving from their campsite to the Scout campsite and taking over. And while the program you provided a link to is nice, It appears that it is a completely separate section of the Scout reservation. I don't know how many councils have the space to do that, mine doesn't, nor the financial resources to do it today, especially with the threat of bankruptcy and COVID-19. Heck even before all this mess started, I know the Council I was in 30 years ago with the 1600+ acre Scout reservation had to nix the creation of a new Boy Scout camp because they could not support two separate camps: a Boy Scout camp and Cub Scout camp Can I answer here? Regarding the term "Family Scouting," get rid of it. Use SCOUTING or whatever term the GSUSA will allow us to use since we apparently lost the rights to that name despite being the older organization. And keep "Family" out of it. As for Family Camping, keep it at the Cub Scout level. I would severely limit it at the Scouts BSA, and higher levels ( if they exist post bankruptcy). A troop's PLC may want one on occasion. But it should be stressed BY NATIONAL that PLCs are responsible for program and not adults. But adults doing program for the Scouts is a different discussion for a different day.

I wonder what the 18-20 year old ASMs think would be best since they are the future.

Well in my 35 years as a Scout and Scouter, whenever parents had been encouraged to attend, I described the results. I can tell that NONE of the Scouts involved in the camp out that took a year to prep for and was ruined by parents and siblings NEVER allowed another troop family camp out. If you don't believe me, check out my posts from around May 2017 to November 2018. Doesn't matter how BSA interpret's "Family Scouting," but how the general public interpret's it. And after all the family camping done at the Cub Scout level, a lot of adults, including some trained but inexperienced Scouters, view what I described as "Family Scouting." Sadly that has not been my experience. Before the YP rule change in 2018, we had parents attend summer camp. And I have never heard of anything like you describe at any of camps I have been to over the years. If by Family Scouting you mean girls, yes I know. But if by Family Scouting you mean allowing mom, dad and siblings to tag along, I am dead set against it. I will be spending more timne keeping them from interfering than working with the youth. And I stated, I don't care what adults want, I care about what the youth want.

At least in my neck of the woods, a lot of those folks feel abandoned and betrayed by the BSA over the past few years. They are no longer interested inthe BSA as a national org, although they will support local units. Sadly, BSA does not have the best PR folks. They should have been ahead of this, talking about how BSA was a leader in youth protection instead of letting the lawyers lead the arguments Forgot the date of the NPR interview, and it comes towards the very end of the interview, but the lead lawyer stated he wanted the BSA dissolved, and if a new organization was needed to replace the BSA,it should start from scratch. I hope and pray that is the case.

Can you provide links to the surveys as well as their methodologies? I am still waiting for the results of the last membership survey of members that was taken. They have released some data of non-members about the membership policy changes, but not the members' data. @Sentinel947 said it best And if the data contradicts what they want to do, they ignore the results. Don't believe me? Look at "instapalms" where 18% were against it and 76% were strongly against it. You think BSA would not do something that 94% of those polled were against! Yet they implemented instapalms anyway. Also is the program for the parents, or the Scouts? I thought the program was for the Scouts, and in my experience as youth and Scouter in multiple troops across multiple councils, THE SCOUTS DON't WANT THE ADULTS AND SIBLINGS INTERFERING AND CAUSING PROBLEMS. (emphasis). @Sentinel947 said it best : I saw a trip that we planned for a year ruined because it turned into a family trip. A year of planning, preparation, and work wasted because the parents interfered and would not let the Scouts do what we were prepared to do, because the siblings were not capable of doing the trip in the conditions at the time. Further, the siblings caused $1000s worth of damage at the place we were staying out. The troop was told never to comeback. I already stated my older two Scouts had to deal with a "family friendly" troop for 19 months. Parents contradicting PLs and SPL, parents jumping in and doing stuff for the Scouts, parents taking over instruction from the Scouts, parents taking over Scouts duties. The straw that broke their backs was when my Scouts took their own time to organize their patrol gear for a camp out, and discovered that the brand new patrol tents, used on a designated family camp out had mold, tears, and even a broken pole. They sorted out the stuff and had everything marked. And then on the camp out, the adults took over the QM's job, and started handed out gear irregardless of whose patrol it belong too. When my son's complained they did not have their patrol's tents, they were told to "take it and set it up." Adults also were contradicting .the SPLs instructions that not only created chaos, but also infuriated the SPL so much he had to walk away to calm down. Then the adults had the gall to complain things were taking to long to set up ca SO I don't care what the parents want, I care about what THE SCOUTS want. I care about keeping a program that allows youth to grow physically, mentally, and morally. I saw at the hospital, and now at the college, what happens when youth are not allowed to do things on their own. So if we go to a family model, I am gone. And I believe a lot of expereicned Scouters feel the same way.

If we become Family Scouts, I am gone, and i believe a large number of traditionalists with the knowledge, skills, and abilities to keep the program alive will as well. It will no longer the progran we signed up for. Worse I think youth will lose interest fast. I was in a "family friendly " troop. The youth had been complaining about the interference for some time. When my family had enough and left, that was the wakeup call for them. That wasvwhen the COR said no more. And a lot of youth who were on the verge of leaving decided to stay.

I am hoping that since we will be removing program for the 18-20 years olds, we will be able to use them once again for YP purposes. After all if everyone over 18 is an adult , and not a mix of adults and "adult participants" there would be some consistency. But if they do not change the YP standards to allow for 18-20 years olds to be a 2nd registered adult, AND Sea Scouting, the OA, Exploring, and Venturing are no longer for them, then I see us losing a bunch of the best and brightest. After I turned 18, Sea Scouts and the OA kept me interested. And it complemented my responsibilities as adult Scouter in my troop.

Even though our camp is still on, at the moment, there are a lot of concerns. Troop will be putting on their own locally. At the moment it is patrol camping, but push comes to shove, it will turn into a day camp. Some folks call this 'Be Prepared," and others will say "Semper Gumby."

Sorry about the misunderstanding, Fred. After what happened in the last troop I was in, family camping is a very sore subject.

Sadly the quality of council rise and fall with the leadership of the SE. I have seen great SEs, and mediocre SEs, and unfortunately poor SEs who should be behind bars for some of the shenanigans they were doing (some have been caught, but not all). Lately I am seeing more and more of the latter 2 categories. I wish that instead of focusing on money, they would focus on service. I wish they would provide a quality, challenging summer camp programs instead of summer school where MBs are given away. I wish national would focus more on the number of camp outs a unit does rather than how many are earning advancement

I am not a fan of family camping at all a the Scouts BSA level. I have seen too many problems result from adults interfering. Last time a family camp out was announced in advance by a troop I was in, I skipped it. More importantly my boys are against it. They have seen the problems first hand because their old troop became "family friendly." The last 18 months they were in the troop, every single camp out turned into a family camp out, most without advance notice. Patrol Camping, or troops separated by BP's 300 feet rule, is the way to go.

I know it is hard, and I am glad I did not make a career out of of being a professional. Locally we have lost a lot of key district level volunteers and big FOS donors because of BSA's membership changes over the past 8 years. Our DEs are stretched thin, and service is not like it use to be. Our volunteers and families do not see any benefit for their FOS pledges, and that is down. Add in National's last minute fee increases and some families that still do FOS had to renege on their pledges to pay for the fee increases. I was one of them. Which in turn further hurts local council support. And the negative publicity is not helping. These lawsuits are coming from 30-60 years ago, and the perpetrators are dead. Mandatory reporter laws were non existent, and what the parents wanted prevailed. So if a parent didn't want it reported to authorities, it wasn't. But we are now getting the blame. The 18% was in reference to the LDS Church. I know the percentage is much higher compared to 8 years ago.

I can see Career Interest Exploring under the BSA umbrella. It was part of the BSA until 1998 when a lawsuit forced BSA to put it under LFL. The memberhsip policy that forced the split is no longer in effect. But LFL and STEM Scouts were just ways to increase membership numbers. I have never seen a successful LFL program, and I had 4 in my district when I was a DE, nor a STEM Scout group.

I see increases coming at both the National and Council levels. National is losing members left and right. and with 18% of the membership gone, that is a huge amount of income that national no longer has. Then I am seeing more and more councils implementing council service fees. I see this happening with my council. Depending upon how much of a fee they charge, will factor into the members the lose. I can tell you family FOS is down in my district because the volunteers are not seeing any benefit. DE is not visible, let alone supporting the volunteers who do step up to the plate to help. Service center has the habit of losing records and applications

Sadly I think National is more about getting Eagle than anything. National has modified the Tenderfoot through First Class Rank requirements so that you can still get FIRST CLASS FIRST YEAR, even if skills are not properly learned. Also they have been so focused on Eagle, they not only promote the "One and Done" mentality via training, but also have allowed folks to receive Eagle who should not have. I met a Scout whose Eagle BOR discovered major issues with his advancement, and followed BSA policy to create a plan that would rectify the situation. When appealed to the council, the Council upheld the district's decision. When appealed to National, they noted there were issues with the Scouts advancement, but gave it to him anyway. Sadly it is not only national, but a lot of volunteers who are not interested in the outdoors, but only in Eagle. Let's face it, the attitude of a unit's Scouters does influence the youth. If the adults have the attitude that they want a challenging, youth-led program with an emphasis on the outdoors, the youth will pick up on that. If a unit's Scouters are only worried about Eagle, the Scouts are going to pick up on that. What I find interesting is that units that focus on Eagle do not have great attendance and/or retention. People will stick around until they get Eagle, then leave or they drop out for a while, then come back at the last minute to hurry up and get Eagle before turning 18. Then they leave. Whereas units that focus on youth led and the outdoors will keep Scouts even after they earn Eagle and/or age out. My oldest son is 16, needs 2 signatures and a BOR and he is Eagle. His plans after Eagle: stick around and have fun until he leaves for college. The Improved Scouting Program (ISP) was before my time, but not before my brothers. That was when the BSA did not have mandatory swimming, cooking, and camping requirements. It was possible to be an Eagle Scout never knowing how to swim, never cooking a meal, and never going camping. When my family moved from the city to the suburbs, they went from an established, outdoor oriented troop with experienced Scouters in the city, to a new troop with inexperienced Scouters using the ISP format in the suburbs. They quickly lost interest and left. I don't have the stats in front of me, but the BSA experienced such a loss in membership that professionals accepted "early retirement," and William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt had to come out of retirement to re-implement an outdoor program. The membership losses due to the ISP are less than today's membership losses. I hope the powers that be remember that dismal failure after this COVID-19 mess, and resist continueing these alternative requirements. Sadly I think in the quest to have more Eagles, they will not put this genie in the bottle, and numbers will continue their downward spiral. Agreed, and usually from someone who has no experience int he program as a youth.

Yes, it would be nice if there was some transparency with the BSA. Who made the "InstaPalm" decision when 94% of those polled were either against (18%) or strongly against (76%) enacting that policy? What were the poll results of the membership policy change? And who decided on the most inconvenient time for the poll, i.e. announcing it right before a National Scout Jambore and shutting down polling about a week after the NSJ? And whose idea was it to mortgage Philmont without telling the Philmont committee about it? Why do 18 to 20 year old ASMs and MBCs no longer count towards Youth Protection? Why can 2 registered females over 21 work with boys by themselves, but 2 registered males over 21 cannot work with girls by themselves? Why the double standard? And those are the ones within the past 5 years that I can think of.

SO all a Scout needs to do is attend class and he gets a MB? SIGN MY HOODLUMS UP! (sarcasm off) I so wish "Master the skills" of day and before, and the " The badge represents what a Scout CAN DO, not what he has done" attitude prior to 2010 were still the norm, and not 'one and done." The Summit's "attend class, get a badge" attitude is why my old troop had major issues on a canoe trip. We had a bunch of Scouts who "earned" Canoeing in 2 one hour sessions, and goofed off the rest of the week.

MAKE ANY ANNOUNCEMENTS ON REGISTRATION INCREASES NOW INSTEAD OF WAITING UNTIL AUGUST, OR WORSE STILL, LATE OCTOBER!

And that is what I am afraid of. I've ran into a SM, who doesn't understand why camping is such a big deal. He earned Eagle in the 1970s, and his troop rarely camped. When that troop does camp, it is usually at MB Weekends and universities. While they do summer camp, not everyone goes. The Eagle Scout who never attended summer camp was one of his. Although I am no longer in the old troop, I still maintain friendships with them, including Gunship. He's slowly mellowing. But I understand more about him. Not only is he prior military, but his SM growing up was the exact same way. I was fortunate. My SM growing up was old school, letting the youth do their thing. He intervened when needed. In my 7 years as a Boy Scout, outside of SMCs and my time on the PLC, only twice did he really intervene with me. First time was when I modeled the inappropriate behavior of my old PL in my previous troop. Had a long talk about leadership, motivating folks, and working with folks that I remember to this day. The second time was a subtle reminder I'm turning 18 in a few months, and it would be a pity if I didn't finish what I started, especially since I spent the past 4+ years as a Life Scout and folks that I have helped as new Scouts earned their Eagle before me. Otherwise he let us handle things. I remember him letting the SPL, ASPL, and older Scouts work with me when I became PL, and first became ASPL.Then I remember him allowing me to work with the younger Scouts. So yes, Scouts do use their own experiences when they work with youth in the troop. And I am worried that we are slowly seeing the demise of traditional Scouting. DN Robbin's post concerns me because he doesn't see the loss us old fogeys are talking about because he has not experienced it. I am glad I found a troop with the same mentality my troop growing up had. My older two are a lot happier. Youngest is having a good time. And part of that is the SM and primary ASM were both Scouts themselves, in youthled troops.

With a warhammer to the head after rolling a 20 to hit and rollng an 8 for damage. Seriously though, the the only way I have seen this work is for 2 Adults to ride herd on the interfering adults and constantly making sure they do not cause trouble. Then as their Scout matures, they get it. Problem is the following: 1) You need 2 adults to maintain eternal vigilance over the interfering adults 2) You gotta make rules AND ENFORCE THEM. You cannot compromise as it give the interfering parents hope. 3) It takes a long time, several months at a minimum, sadly several years, to make the adults realize that failure is learning. 4) Sometimes people just won't get it.

Thanks for the info. So you became a Tiger Cub in 1995, and joined Boy Scouts in 2000. So you are part of the OPERATION FIRST CLASS aka FIRST CLASS, FIRST YEAR generation of Scouts with aged-based patrols, and heavy adult involvement. Some of us have been a round a little longer and remember when Traditional Patrols, aka mixed aged patrols were the norm, and they patrols were capable of operating independently from each other to the point they could camp, hike, etc on their own without adults because your older Scouts were fully capable of taking care of themselves and the younger Scouts in their Patrols. New Scout Patrols only existed with LDS troops and their 11 Year Old Scouts, and you very rarely saw them because they could not camp much. Do you remember how much influence you had on the younger Scouts in your troop when you were an 18-20 year old ASM? Do you remember how they hung on every word you said? Do you remember some adults getting frustrated because they would ask the Scout a few questions to get them thinking on the task at hand, and the Scout would ignore them, but then you come over and ask the same questions, and they Scouts would get it? I sure do. I remember all the young ASMs I've worked with through the years. They had a lot more influence and could make a bigger impact than some of us old fogeys. But now they have no incentive to stick around. I have had several awesome Scouts leave once they turned 18 because they feel that BSA no longer respect them and their abilities because they are under 21. If they cannot serve as a full-fledged adult, why should they stick around? If they cannot towards YP, the troop doesnt't need them. If they need 2 adults over 21 attending their MB sessions, why bother? On a side note, I feel like BSA has been spiraling downward since they implemented OPERATION FIRST CLASS back in 1989. They made it easier to advance, moving from a "Master the Skills" mentality of the 1979 and earlier handbooks, and "The Badge represents what the Scout CAN DO (sic), not what he has done" of the current 'One and Done" mentality found in today's Guide to Advancement. And don't get me started on the changes to OA membership over the years.