Eagle94-A1

Sad thing is, you got folks who will look at part of the document, without reading the entire thing. And it is confusing. We did orienteering courses at day camp, and the cubs loved it. When we did geocaching with the Webelos in December, we also threw in "old school geocaching:" orienteering. Again the Webelos loved. it. Maybe I should call the orienteering course a 'map and compass" course?

In regards to Knights and Cubs, I guess we could go all the way back to our Founder, who in 1907 Was only LtGen SIR (emphasis Robert Stephen Smyth Baden Powell, CB (Companion in the Most Honorable Order of the Bath). By the time Cub Scouts was first established in 1916, BP was promoted to a KCB ( Knight Commander in the Most Honorable Order of the Bath), and had the KCVO (Knight Commander in the Royal Victorian Order) and was a KStJ ( Knight of Justice in the Most Veneralable Order of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem) So our founder was a knight before becoming a Baron. BP used knights throughout his scouting literature. You can see some of his artwork if you google it. As for the use of Knights in BSA, I remember Green Bar Bill using BP's Code of Chivarly in the handbooks. Apparently the new CS program incorporates Knights in its program http://www.scouting.org/filestore/cubscouts/pdf/YEAR2/310-842%2815%29_November%20Courteous_WEB.pdf I've seen lots of knights in Cub Scouts throughout the years, including NCS stuff on Chivalry.

So, I'm reviewing stuff, and on this site http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspxit says that 12 years olds can do Outpost Camping. 1) Why separate Boy Scouts into 11 and 12 year olds? 1a) What about the 10 year old Boy Scouts? 2) What the heck is "Outpost Camping" On this site, http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416_Insert_Web.pdf, it states that Bears can cook in the outdoors, but they can't build a fire or used fueled devices like stoves. So.. 3) How they heck are they suppose to cook? And if survival training is part of CASTAWAY... 4) How the Heck are Webelos suppose to earn CASTAWAY if they cannot build fires, nor use them for signalling purposes? Other questions 5) If Wolves and Bears can use a map and compass, then why does it say they can't they go orienteering lower on the chart? 6) they can do pioneering bridges and towers, but not other pioneering projects? Regarding Boy Scouts: 7) All Boy Scouts can do Search and Rescue Practice, but only older Scouts, Sea Scouts, and Venturers can do actual missions? One question, and I like that it is allowed 8) When did Webelos get to use bow saws? @@RichardB, I know you have a hand in writing these and you have some field experience at the unit level. But do the others who write this have experience in the field? Some of these guidelines do not make sense.

We have a Second Class in our troop who after 3 years in the troop, FINALLY got Tenderfoot and Second Class. He only got interested in advancement due to Philmont. He just wants to camp. Funny thing is, he probably has enough MBs and time in PORs to be at least Star, and possibly Life IF he would just done the SM Conference over the years.

Goose, There is a very heavy push with LDS units, at least with the ones I've seen. Also a lot more adult oriented, i.e. the adults run things instead of the youth. part of it is the way the program is run. 11 years olds meet separately from the rest of the troop, are limited to the number of camp outs they can do, and have an assigned adult leader working with them. Some sat it's Webelos III, and I think the LDS units are the model for NSPs. Also because Scouting is THE official LDS youth program, positions in the troop correspond to positions in the church, so members of the PLC are appointed, rather than elected. Another challenge with LDS units is consistency with adult leadership. Generally the adults are appointed to the positions by teh bishop. While the goal is now 3 -5 years between appointments, as one of my LDS friends told me, the further away from Salt Lake City you go, the wider the variety of Scouting. So I've seen SMs appoitned for less than 12 months!

A few comments. 1) As mentioned, BSA doesn't have a ban on sheath knives, let alone swords. In fact the Bryan on Scouting Blog used a sword as an April Fools joke a few years back. 2) Some councils do impose a 'no sheath knife rule." Sometimes its due to legal jurisdictions banning such knives, sometimes for other reasons. 3) Legal jurisdictions vary, and some do ban certain types of knives, and swords. 4) I want a copy of the ceremony! Just can't use any of the swords I have access to. All are sharpened, except Narsil, and it's broken into a bunch a shards. I'm hoping to get it fixed someday.

I believe there were only 25 Sea Scout Quartermasters last year. Having been a Sea Scout (only got to Ordinary), I can tell you that Eagle Scout is a heck of alot easier than Quartermaster.

A few comments on the Finns. 1) I may have gotten the ages wrong. It's been 21 years. But essentially the Cub and Older Scout programs are coed. 2) Reason why they separate for Scout age youth is two fold: a) is to keep the traditional Scout and Guide titles and rank structure b) all boys and all girl units do better than coed at that age. Unless things have changed, the Finnish association's emblem is a Cross with the FDL and Trefoil emblems at the points. Stosh, 18 months of kayaking! OUTSTANDING! As for social dynamics, there is some of that. I know I was talking to middle son's WDL, whom the wife is AWDL for. Long story short, the comment made is that she does tend to "mother" them a bit, and the WDL has to tell her to wait and let them try. She readily admits that she is still in "Cub" mode, and "mothers" them too much. She is working on that. Especially since the WDL is moving back to Tigers come June 1st. Wife is trying to resist being WDL, but "it's only an hour a week for 6 months." An aside, I think this is the biggest difference between my pack and some others in our area. In my pack we start the transition process to Boy Scouts as soon as they become Webelos. Most packs start it in March of Webelos, it not later, and that is due to preparing for Webeloree. Looking at the scores for the past 3 years, my pack has come out either first or second. And it's usually the uniform inspection that separates us from 1st or 2nd. At the Webeloree this year, we had leaders helping the Cubs load the catapults, assisting in transporting the catapults, etc. Stuff the Cubs were suppose to be able to do by themselves. Only thing the WDL did was stake down the catapult. And that was after the judge said it would be OK to do that since we were on rocky ground, and even the adults had a hard time staking it down. I think part of the issue with my troop's NSP is that some of the Scouts have been doing patrol method for a year or longer before coming to the troop, whereas others have had less than that, if any.

Need to add to my post about female leaders being detrimental to Boy Scout troops. Thinking about it, those leaders involved with Boy Scout troops usually had involvement with Girl Scouts as a youth. While I don't know much about Girl Scouts, I do know they focus a lot on badges. And those units with heavy female involvement tend to focus more on badges, and less on outing. Sad when 4 weekend campout and summer camp is all that is required for a troop be qualify for Bronze JTE.

The Finns I worked with described their organization as such: Cub Scout ( 7-11?) = coed Boy Scouts= All Male (12- 15?) Girl Guides or Scout (can't remember)= All Female Rovers(?) (15+?) = coed I know the SA's pre-2007 policy was popular when I was over there. I ran into an all male Scout troop, and a friend started an all female Scout troop since the Guide troop wasn't meeting her and others expectations. I don't think BSA will ever mandate all units going coed anytime soon. Some COs will not go for it.

'Skip, Unless things have changed in the UK since I was there in '95, the Girl Guides had a MUCH (emphasis) more active outdoor program than the Girl Scouts on this side of the pond. I would say the Girl Guides had an active outdoor program like our old Cub Scout program. Thankfully our Cub Scout program has been revamped to have more outdoor activities. If only we can get the old fogeys who believe "Cubs don't need to camp" out of positions on council camping committees. On this side of the pond, unless you get a leader who likes the outdoors, the Girl Scouts rarely go camping. They mostly do cookie sales. Maryread, At the moment, you are experiencing Cub Scouts. When your son hits Boy Scouts, it will be a HUGE (emphasis) difference. Cub Scouts focuses on family outings and family involvement. Boy Scouts is completely different. Boy Scouts focuses on individual growth and independence. In my experience, parents have a harder time adjusting to Boy Scouts than the boys themselves. Worst offenders are former Cub Scout leaders who cross over. They have spent anywhere from 1-5+ years doing stuff and being in charge, and the former CS leader needs to be "deprogrammed" as one friend calls it, or "Unlearn what you have learned" as Master Yoda puts it. Even those of us who know better have a hard time. Just as I had to adjust from working with Boy Scouts to Cub Scouts ( a lot easier transition I might add) I had to adjust working with Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. Heck just this weekend I had to get an recently crossed over leader away from members of his old den who were screwing up putting up a tent. Regarding females in Scouting, there will be changes, and it will be detrimental to the boys in the program. Yes there are a few great female Scout leaders. I've had the pleasure to work with them. But they are less than 1% of the female leader population. Someone pointed out to me the decline in standards since the introduction of female SMs and ASMs in the late 80s/early 90s. While I personally think OPERATION FIRST CLASS is the biggest reason for the decline in standards, after observing units with large numbers of females in leadership positions, I do believe that has been a factor. I also believe having adult male leaders, growing up in the 1970s "Improved Scouting Program" which took OUTING out of Scouting by not requiring a camping program is another factor.

One summer, we had two Navy corpsmen on TDY to summer camp as medical staff. One day they took the HMMWV to the back side of camp for a little "fun." Not only did they tear up large tracks of land, they also flipped over the HMMWV. I didn't think you could flip a HMMWV over.

I too lament the lack of interest in the OA. Back in the day, it was indeed an honor to get in, heck to even be eligible. I was excited to be on the ballot, and couldn't wait to get in. While my excitement died down since when I got in, the OA chapter didn't do anything, years later, I did get very involved with the OA. So some of it has to do with how active the chapter and/or lodge is. But talking to my son prior to and after my troop's OA election in December, one in which he was on the ballot, he could care less if he got in or not.

a few thoughts. 1) I too emphasized the patrol method when I do SM Specific. IMHO, the patrol method is the foundation of Scouting along with the outdoors. No patrol= No Scouting. 2) The current BSA Table of Organization for a troop, has only been around since 1989, about 27 years. Prior to that it was mixed aged patrols with some type of Older Scout patrol, some time in the 1920s to 1989, or approximately 69 years. And prior to that, it was pure mixed aged patrols. While some have had success with NSPs, I and others have not. So I have no problem with troops that continue using mixed aged patrols. Mixed aged patrols do work. 3) If memory serves, the concept of SPL came about because of William Hillcourt, and his experiences as a Scout in Denmark. If I recall correctly, the other PLs voted for him to be SPL in order to help them out and mentor. Over the years, the SPL has gotten more and more responsibilities. I admit, I like the entire troop voting for SPL, even when I disagree with their decision, or as was the case last year SHOCKED by the decision to elect a first year Scout as SPL BUT I would rather have the PLs elect the SPL, than have an adult appoint him. While it may not be the norm now, it was the norm at onetime.

Update on the weekend. 6 Scouts and 2 leaders came. They didn't run any events, but at least they camped and did some stuff in the campsite with the Webelos. Baby steps. Current CM and CO's SM go way back, and I mean WWWWWAAAAAAAYYYYYY back. CM worked with SM before the birth the of SM's son, and CM was there for the SM's son's birth. And vice versa. SM actually recruited the CM when CM's son was a Tiger. So after the troop left today, CM and I had a chat. Apparenlty the SM feels betrayed by the pack, hence the lack of involvement. SM feels that I am to blame for my oldest son and 3 of his den mates going to our troop. Then when the next Webelos Den crossed over, felt betrayed again because 1 went to my troop, and another went to a different troop.And when last year's CM's son went over to my troop, again furthered the betrayal. As for the lack of involvement with, the Webeloree is run by a fellow from my troop. He is the one who when asked by his pastor to restart the pack, left my pack and became CM. Eventually 1/2 the pack left to join the new pack. So there is still some resentment there. I'm trying to stay out of it. I want the relationship to be reesablished. I want the troop getting involved. Heck I had a chat with some of the Scouts aroundthe campfire talking about one of the best recruiting tools; Wilderness Survival, especially since now CASTAWAY is an elective adventure,.

With the troop I'm in, the direct contact leaders don't care where the folks go, as long as they remain in Scouting. We've had folks visit from other units, we've had folks transferring from out of council visit us, and of course the feeder pack's Cubs. We want people to be in a troop that they are comfortable with. I admit we are not the best troop around, but we are not the worst either. We are a young troop that is slowly growing its own youth leaders. I think maybe part of the "turf war" is that the CO's troop is losing Scouts. I knew Scouts were leaving the troop due to the change in leadership. Three new, non-Cub Scout, Boy Scouts I recruited for them, ended up quitting within 6 months. I told you about how only one Cub from my old den remains. And they haven't gotten a Cub from my pack in 2 years. Only "new" Scout they have in the past year was a transfer from another council. He's Life and is looking to Eagle.

I admit, I hate doing YPT. After doing it for registration multiple times, doing it again multiple times to work the various camps, even if YPT was current, because we needed to get the camp version, with extra stuff, even if I taught the camp version with the extra stuff and did it as training chair, I need to keep on doing it. I wish in my case, it was only once every 2 years.

At one time, we had a shared committee. The old SM also doubled as WDL. Troop invited Webelos to camp. Grant you the committee focused more on the troop than the pack, but over time the pack developed it's own committee. Long story short the change in SMs changed a lot of things. Sad thing is this: SM wasa DL and CM of the pack. ASMs were DLs, and several of the commtitee members were ADLs, DLs and one was a CM. Troop I'm with and their pack have a good relationship. Joint committee, although they do not do much, they still do something. Former CM is an ASM and haas an incoming Tiger. Multiple DLs have sons in the troop. We camp with them, do Scouring for Food and the Memorial Day Service Project with them, etc.

Yes twice with the same troop. About 3 years ago, we had a troop offer den chiefs for our pack. CO's SM gets very upset when he finds out and made a comment about the other troop trying to steal their Cubs, and that he will give us DCs. Long story short, the DCs lasted less than 3 months, were hit and miss on attendance, and when they were there, were more of a problem. One DL sent his DC home in the middle of the meeting! Once the Webelos crossed over, they quit coming. Back in July my troop was doing a water weekend at a lake, so the Webelos could work on Aquanaut or whatever it's called now. Now I do not like giving my sons opportunities that their peers don't have. So I invited his entire den to camp with the troop if they wanted. THAT CAUSED A MAJOR PROBLEM ON FACEBOOK! CO's SM made nasty comments about my troop and the integrity of it's leader trying to steal his Cubs. I admit, I lost my cool and responded. Tried to keep it lighthearted, but firm and fair. Talked about not only the recruiting issue, but also the other issues the troop has had. I eventually deleted the posts, after being asked, and PMed the SM. I don't believe he ever read the message.

The BORs I've sat on with this troop have been for Tenderfoot and Second Class, usually at the same time. I couldn't sit in on Oldest's First Class BOR, so I don't know if it changes for the second and succeeding BORs. I'll ask.

Yes. Venturers and Venturing Leaders need both the standard YPT that Cub and Boy Scout leaders take, as well as the Venturing YPT. And the Venturers over 18 needing adult app and YPT started a few years back with the original membership standards change.( 2013 or 2014).

Good advice all. One thing my troop does, and I kinda like, is use a meeting room with a sofa in it. That seems to settle down the Scouts and keep them from getting nervous. Just remind them not to lay down on the sofa like they are watching a movie

Good question. I'd try talking to the Cub leaders first. Have a sit down, around the fire, or dinner table discussion. If that doesn't work, and IF you have an active CO, go to the COR or IH. and Krampus offers a great idea. I'd also look at some history and try to find out why others are going elsewhere. At the moment, the troop I am with is losing 50-75% of the Cubs crossing over from the feeder pack. We are making up by getting new Scouts from my pack and another pack and troop that folded. SO the SM and ASMs are not too concerned at the moment. And we know why: a pack folded just after the CO restarted its pack. So they joined the CO's pack. However they have brothers and parents involved with the original pack's feeder troop. But the COR and IH is concerned. An aside, my son noticed the lack of Cubs coming from the feeder pack and he is a little concerned. The troop has an open campout policy for Webelos, but few take advantage. Biggest time the Webelos interact are Webeloree, and camporees. Son wants to have a camp out dedicated to Webelos. When I talked to him about what my troop did as a recruiting tool, Wilderness Survival Weekend, and how we can apply it to the Castaway Adventure Badge, he is all for it. On a personal note: as expressed in older posts, the hardest thing to do is be "neutral" when you are involved in one troop, but your pack is affiliated with another. It is doable, but hard. I know with my oldest, only his best friend knew he was going to a different troop. The rest of his den and leaders didn't know until about 1.5 months before Crossover. And his friend wasn't going to join the CO's troop due to issues with some of the Scouts, and his friend influenced him! It's harder this go around. 2 of Older Son's den transferred out of the CO's troop to my son's and 2 dropped out all together, including one of the most gung ho Scouts. It was noticed on the pack level. The lack of involvement at district and council activities, as well as the cancelation of camp outs at the last minute and lack of camping, has been noticed by the pack. When I am asked what is the problem with the CO's troop, I have to be honest. I mentioned how the WDL was adamant about the den going to the CO's troop back up until June when I backed away. We talked about some issues and he said they are can be worked out. He must have seen something he didn't like to no longer push for the CO's troop. So folks know where I stand now, and where my middle son is going in December. Heck middle son has already camped 2 times with the troop, has friends in the troop, and was jumping at the bit to join the troop when he would be eligible in May. He's calmed down since because he wants to go to the troop with the rest of his Cub den. and yes it looks like they are leaning towards my troop. My troop has been more involved with the pack than the CO's troop. BUT I am trying to remain neutral. I have told folks visit ALL of the troops in the area and find the one that's right for them. Since it appears I have no influence with the CO's troop's SM, I have encouraged his friends involved with the pack to talk to him and persuade him to get involved with the pack. I don't want the CO's troop to die. I mentioned I have been involved indirectly with the troop since it was founded 12 years ago. The troop was the reason why I visited the pack first. And it's frustrating to see what is happening to the troop. In one aspect the issues my troop are facing are a blessing since I have been focused on those, and not getting frustrated at something I helped get started die. And yes the troop is dying. Found out that since my den crossed over in December 2013, they have only gotten one new Scout, and he was a Star Scout transfer from out of council. And the CM's son must be having some thoughts on which troop to join come December. The Cub was concerned about joining one troop, and CM dad joining another. Dad had to tell him whatever troop he joins, dad goes too.

Unfortunately the CO has no involvement with the units other than a place to meet and store gear. In fact I heard one of the CO's members refer to the Scouts as a "outside group." Shows when the CO at the last minute forced the troop to cancel an Eagle Court of Honor that had been scheduled for several months because "their" youth group needed the space. Thankfully the OA stepped in and was able to secure their meeting space for the Eagle Scout's COH. And it's not from lack of trying on the Pack's part. They have been invited to Blue and Golds, camp outs, Cross Overs, etc. And this year the pack organized Scout Sunday. As for the feedback from BORs, I don't know what is being said currently, But I do know that several who have Eagled and left or aged out have commented about the changes to the troop in the last 6 years. They were ignored. On a positive note, they have 2 adults and 6 youth paid to go. Still have not contacted the event chief to say what event they are running. Hopefully baby steps.

That is what we had and didn't work