Eagle94-A1

BLW2, The Leadership Corps was what the Venture crew (not Venturing Crew), now called a Venture patrol, was called back in my day. usually it was the older Scouts who had troop level positions: QM, Librarian, Instructor, etc. Lots of different ways to work it, but here is how it worked in my troop. If I can find the Leadership Corps book I'll post some official stuff. , 1. Had to be First Class or above, a PL for at least 6 months (most were a PL for year or longer), and be elected by existing members of the LC to be a member. 2. ASPL was the PL of the LC since he is responsible for supervising the troop appointed positions. 3. Everyone had a role to play, even if they didn't have a formal POR as being in the LC was a POR from 72-89. 4. We ran the interpatrol activities for the troop. 5. We would occasionally did our own activities. Best example would be the Vicksburg Military Park trails. Instead of the 14 mile road trip, we would do the 12 mile as the crow flies cross country orienteering trek, or if that was closed do the 14 and 7 mile road trips. Rest of the troop did the 14 miler.

OK I'm back 3) Since all the Varsity Teams I've seen have been LDS, yes I've heard on non-LDS teams but have not seen them, I think the reason for the switch from Leadership Corps to Venture crew, as well as the creation of the high adventure activity pins for wear on the Varsity/Venture V Award, was created based upon LDS units using Varsity Teams.

The concept of the New Scout Patrol and Troop Guide position came out officially in August 1989 as part of the OPERATION FIRST CLASS Program. National did some research saying that Scouts who get First Class within a year tend to stay in Scouting longer, and looked at some things to use to retain membership. Hence Operation First Class. The New Scout patrol, Troop Guide, renaming the Leadership Corps the Venture crew, etc as well as doing away with time requirements between T-2-1 ranks were all party of that process. My thoughts; 1) While the report does show a correlation between advancement and retention, it did not show, nor even address, an active program. In my expereince, a 'hiking and camping troop" will retain Scouts. 2) I'm willing to bet that the LDS units separation of their 11 year olds from the rest of the troop not only heavily influenced the concept of NSPs, but may have skewed some of the advancement data. Seems as if LDS units have had a focus on advancement over program since the 11 years olds are limited to 3 camp outs/year. In retrospect, I think the LDS units may be one reason why advancement may have been used as a measurement for retention instead of programming. More later

My troop, stressing troop, growing up had a policy of anyone with 7 or more MBs could wear a sash. I think it came from the long sleeve shirt policy. HOWEVER none of us ever wore long sleeve shirts. Otherwise ANYONE can wear a MB sash.

Hedgehog, ROTFLMBO! The duty roster story reminded me of one of the biggest issues. Now the folks in the NSP have been in the troop anywhere from 6-8 months, with one guy coming aboard last December. So they have some camping experience and know why a duty roster is important. Also their troop guide was a PL, so he knows as well. WWWWEEEEELLLLL the duty roster was just a list of working pairs with no meals or duties listed. Just a bunch of names on a grid. And no one but the TG had a copy of it, and it was in a book. Grant you I had to intervene, because an argument was going on and nothing was getting done. Asking questions was the way to get them to realize how they can imporve the process. For got to add, the only expectation was camp to be broken by a certain time and give them the chance to goof off before leaving. Took over 4 hours to cook, clean, and break camp. One more update. Talking to oldest about the situation and asked his opinion on some things. Asked what he thought of splitting up the mixed age patrol and having the NSP divide up in May when we do elections. Said it it wouldn't work as there are some issues between the two patrols. Asked for his idea, and he said just add new scouts to the existing patrols and divide the patrols when we need to.

Yep, I'm using my experiences as a guide. As to using BP's and GBB's literature, if you read it does it say anywhere about boys joining as an entire den at one time? I don't think you will find one as that concept is a relatively new one. It used to be boys joined Boy Scouts as soon as they turned 12, then it was dropped to 11. I don't know when the concept of entire dens crossing over at one time came out, but I know it wasn't a big deal like it is today in the early 80s. As Eagledad said, dividing up the new Scouts had some benefits. 1) No single patrol is at a disadvantage. Let's face it during any type of competition, the NSP will have a big disadvantage in regards to skills. Venture patrol runs the competition and acts as judges, all the other patrols compete on an even keel with a mixture of experienced and new Scouts. 2) One Scout alone cannot teach a patrol of new Scouts. This is not only based upon my experience as the "troop guide" ( I was appointed the PL of the NSP back in the day), but also on my observations and experiences as an adult. I remember being overwhelmed at times as a youth, and I have observed either more older Scouts having to get involved, the troop guide being overwhelmed, or worst adults getting involved. The last campout is the best example. TG was working so hard trying to supervise dinner and KP, that the patrol campfire was neglected. No campfire for them. Then the next morning, again TG was focused on dealing with cooking and KP issues that striking tents was not done as the PL had no experience and was clueless as to what needed to be done. Unfortunately adults got involved. In a mixed aged patrol, experienced Scouts buddy up with new Scouts to do the various jobs, insuring that things get done. PL usually is an experienced Scout who has some knowledge, skills, and abilities to get jobs done without adults getting involved. 3) Gives the experienced Scouts a taste of teaching, leading, and ownership. THEY are responsible for training the next group of Scouts in the troop. That mentorship is a great bond building tool. I know I' m still in contact with my PL, and SPLs from my old troop to this day.

Only if you stay with in council. Unless things have changed, if you move to a different council, you get a new ID number, and you got to resubmit records. One of the biggest P.I.T.B.s when I moved 5 times in 7 years, was having to resubmit copies of everything.

BLW, Prior to 1989, the only types of patrols were the "Traditional" or mixed-aged patrol, and an older Scout patrol. The older Scout patrol has gone through various changes, both in program and name. The idea of the traditional or mixed aged patrol was two fold: first was to get a bunch of buddies together with similar intersts. But the second was to get Scouts of different abilities and expereince working together. Older Scouts in the patrol helped the younger scouts. The older Scouts in the patrol were the ones who taught vartious scoutcraft skills, in my expereince by buddying up with one or two new scouts. When my troop tried the NSP idea in 1986 as part of the experiment, it was a complete and utter failure. One person could not teach and work effectively with a bunch of new scouts. We lost a few Scouts because we did have a lot of problems on camp outs that the other patrols did not have. We went back to mixed aged patrols in 1987. When a new, patrol -sized, troop was formed, they went camping and did things with us to help them get on their feet. This was circa 1990, and that "troop" had major issues as no one had the basic T-2-1 Skills mastered. Eventually that troop merged with us, and the patrol was split into existing patrols. Never again did they put all the new scouts in one patrol. I want to say the NSP concept came from how the LDS troops are organized. All 11 year olds are in one patrol, with adults working with them until they turn 12. If you look at BSA training materials, it says the NSP has a NSP ASM assigned to them in addition to a TG.I do not like that because under the traditional patrol method, the only time adutls get involved is for safety, and if the Scouts can't teach somehting.

An update. Looks like we may have a new SM. My friend may be taking on the job since he is no longer affiliated with the pack. We'll see how long that lasts since one son is a Webelos, and step-son will be a Tiger next year. Plus his job. But he did say that with the abundance of adult leaders to help, we should have no problems. His approval as SM is in the hands of the troop committee and church committee. Thankfully he's a member of the church, and former youth minister. New SPL so far has taken the job seriously. Haven't worked with him since the Christmas Party though. But he does wants to adults to butt out a bit, only helping when asked. I hadn't told him my son's idea of only having 1 adult in the meeting room with the rest in another room. While we technically have 2 NSPs, in actuality we only have 1. The other is more a mixed aged patrol, they just haven't focused on advancement. Funny thing is, the 30 days of exercises is holding most back from Tenderfoot, and talking to the SM for Second and First Class. The actual NSP only got one new Scout from the Cross Over this month. The other 2 went to a nearby troop. That's fine. And in some aspects we needed a break from growth. The NSP needs some help, and we need to get the troop up to speed ASAP. One of the local packs that normally Crosses Over in December decided to hold back to March and the council Webeloree. DL wants to make a big production of the Cross Over at Webeloree. It will be the first Webeloree Cross Over in about 3 or 4 years as most troops in our area do Cross Over in the December through February range. So we may be getting 5 more. I do know that the WDL wants to keep the den at the CO's troop. Now if we could only get the CO's troop involved with the pack. We need to get ready for next year. There is the potential to get up to 18 new Scouts from my troop's CO's pack. Yep, they have 18 Webelos. And I have a feeling that my middle son, who is in another pack, will bring over his 10 man den. Sadly the pack's brother troop is not doing much with them. So even if we get half of the possible 28, that's still two NSPs! We do calendar years for planning purposes, not traditional program years. So the Annual Planning Conference was just done. The camp outs and activities are not as "adventurous" as some would like. But maybe that is what we need to get the two actual NSP patrols completely up to speed and doing thing correctly. I have a feeling that if we get 14 new Scouts next year, we will need to go "old school" and have "Traditional Patrols" and a venture patrol for the older Scouts in troop level leadership roles. I really do think having everyone mixed up helps transition and camping out more.

I admit, I was "encouraged" to get Eagle by an uncle and cousin. But it was two other cousin's double Eagle COH that really impressed and inspired me to get Eagle as an 8 year old Wolf Cub Scout. In fact, the entire troop made such an impression on me, that when I switched troops, I went to them.

I admit, the adults made the decision for the Cross Over we got 2 weeks ago: wait until January 26th to get the new book, and just start using the new requirements. Since his Cross Over, all we had was the Christmas Party. Next Week is the next meeting. For the rest of them, We've informed them they have until December 31, 2016 to get to First Class or the next higher rank under the current requirements. What I hope does NOT happen is that units ignore the changes and have their Scouts keep working on the old requirements. Had a troop do that, and when they folded, some transferred Scouts had some advancement challenges. One of those Scouts had to appeal for an extension to get Eagle! Thankfully, he got it.

"As for the original questions, like others, I'm not as skilled in the specifics of how the one-year webelos program works within the LDS units, but for other units, say a boy in 4th grade worked on, but did not complete the Webelos badge; it is my understanding that any adventures he earned could be use to fulfil the elective requirements for the AOL (since they technically were not used for the Webelos Badge)." Only as electives. HOWEVER I do not know how the Webelos Duty to God and You Adventure and Arrow of Light Duty to God in Action Adventure would work since the first requirement is identical, and the rest are nearly identical.

I agree with you, and think the new changes greatly diminish the AOL and the work of those who have been with the program a while. But the new rules are the new rules. We cannot add nor subtract them.

Vumbi, Actually my first year Webelos pointed it out to me. When he got his new book, he read it, and told me he didn't need to earn Webelos to get his AOL. So he was going to skip it and go directly to AOL so he can move up in May at 10.5 years. Then he changed his mind and decide to stick with his friends.

Unless it's district or council level folks, the troop or team committee selects the adult. The committee should be following the rules. But I've seen SMs allow folks to be candidates for election when they didn't meet the camping requirement. So I guess committees would too. Unfortunately there is no check as a "Scout is Trustworthy...."

I know LDS units do things a little differently, i.e. no Tigers; Wolves are age 8; Bears age 9; and Webelos age 10, and I do not know how the new program affected the LDS format. BUT under the new Cub Scout program, Webelos is not needed to earn AOL. BUT they need to do the new Adventures to get the AOL badge.

Powderhorn is suppose to be a pin now.

I've given out the flint and steel tools before. Real cheap ones to fit in budget. This specifically http://www.amazon.com/Magnesium-Starter-Flint-Stone-Lighter/dp/B00K5I058Y/ref=pd_sim_468_3?ie=UTF8&dpID=51dUlP1NKVL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=15598NXPK8BS0N9YS5PE They do work, but a bit of practice is needed.

BERSTIE, 1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS! All, if you red my question on how to your units conduct elections and appoint positions, then you have a bit of an update. Elections, which should have been easy and smooth, turned into a long convoluted process. Long story short, you cannot nominate yourself, you need to be nominated for office. AND everyone seemed like they needed to reciprocate by nominating the person who nominated them for the same position And it's kinda a "tradition" that you don't vote for yourself. At least that's what my son told me. Found out last nite when the unit did OA elections and we were talking about them. That and some other things the OA didn't do or say, but that's a different story. An aside, never plan a unit election the same nite as a Cross Over ceremony, when the bulk of your election team are on the ceremony team as well. BACK ON TOPIC. While the SPL and PLS were elected, unfortunately the rest of them were appointed by the SM. Folks were nominated for the various positions, but he appointed them. Not too happy about that as well, especially since I know one appointment was made because an ASM plans on doing the bulk of the work since he is a gear junkie. Campout this weekend was OK, but we had issues. new SPL didn't plan anything because the SM told him he would take care of it. I personally was not happy about that, and we did have some bored Scouts and visiting Webelos. Not how SPL or I envisioned it. NSP had some arguing about stuff bought, not bought, and lost. I had to intervene to prevent a parent from going off on some of the Scouts. Long story short, Dad worked with scout prior to the trip and told the scout he should get some clarifications on items on the list to make sure the son bought the right stuff. Son did get clarification, and he shopped for the list as specified. Dad was the one who took him shopping, but did not interfere. Again if it wasn't on the list, the Scout did not buy it. When the patrol started getting ticked off and call the scout an idiot, dad almost went ballistic. I jumped in and worked with them. I'd rather they get a talk about how things work and Scout Spirit from me than an angry parent. An aside; funny thing is the guy calling folks "idiot" was the one who when he was suppose to shop, grandma did it for him, went overbudget buying stuff not on the list or more food than the list stated, and ended up paying out of pocket for a good bit of it. And about 1/3 of the food was thrown away because it was too much or improperly stored. Dinner was "interesting" in that for the most part the scout were left alone. Very hard for the parent to do and one of the ASMs. One idea to distract adults, playing card games. that kept them busy a good bit. Kids had some issues, but dealt with it themselves. Adults got involved when it was discovered the NSP didn't have cleaning supplies. We did a trade: cleaning supllies in exchange for them doing our dishes. The adults were happy with that, but don't think the Scouts were. The NSP also had problems in that the duty roster they came up with was incomplete, missing information, and the TG and PL were having issues with who was suppose to do what. While they eventually got that settled, they did get a reminder that the duty roster needs to be complete. Frustrating that the TG needed a reminder about the completeness of menus. But glad that he worked out issues that were arising in regards to cooking and KP. Yep, one Scout wanted to be a slacker and not do KP properly. Morning was a charlie foxtrot. took the NSP 4 hours to cook, do KP, and strike camp. It was bad enough that parents were showing up to pick up the kids, and one of them got involved. He's is now moving from WDL to some troop position, so it's going to get interesting. Need to get him trained and OUT OF THE SCOUTS' HAIR. He was the one who bought the food for the patrol previously. He was complaining about the chaos that is the NSP and has jumped in once before. On a positive note, they were able to camp spread out. They cooked under the same shelter, which caused some headaches, but overall they were doing stuff as patrols. We got a lock in next month. Because of the improper food storage situation and issues with KP 2 months ago, and almost this weekend before the TG nipped it in the bud, we have a retired health inspector coming in to talk about the importance of storing food properly and cleaning properly. I'm hoping it has some "cool" photos and isn't boring lecture. That was adult driven. But after rock climbing, we will be having a "field day." Troop spent money getting supplies for the Scouts, and as I've mentioned, some of the supplies were not taken care of and thrown away, or are missing. Patrols have not kept inventories, despite repeated suggestions to do so. While the Field Day was essentially an adult decision, we do have buy in from most of the Scouts as they are sick of other patrols borrowing stuff and not returning it. And I think that's another issue. Instead of always having three patrols, we have been combining them from time to time based upon numbers. In fact I want to say the last time the NSP used their patrol box was the camp out I got injured at. Long journey ahead.

In regards to lawsuits against COs for choosing their own leaders since July, I have no idea. I do know that there have been several prior to that, and not just based upon sexuality. There was a lawsuit against one CO by a parent because the CO wanted their members in leadership roles in the pack. The parent was not a member of the congregation, nor a member of the denomination and did sue. While it can be hard to be in that situation, I'm in it to a degree at the moment, I do understand where the COs are coming from. I also know the importance of having a good CO to UNITS relationship. In my current situation, I'm in the background supporting my Scouts to the best of my ability.

SP, Sorry for the misunderstanding. I would need to get recertified. And I don't have the paid time off to do it. Heck, the troop's leaders were discussing who would be going to summer camp last nite at camp. One made the comment it's a pity I'm dealing with the paperwork, but can't go.

I'm so sorry to hear about this. A few thoughts. 1) Do you really think the anti Scout led leader will remain? If yes, AND your son is affected to the point of quitting, then move to another trip. If not, you may need stay and help out as best you can and take on the repsonsibility when anti-Scout led ASM fumbles. 2) If step down, be supportive of your son and look to other areas to support Scouting. Good luck.

My cert is expired and I need to go back. I admit I never dealt with the certification aspect as PD. We got enough issues that I don't want to worry about a conditional certification and getting a waiver.

Jackdaws, I'm willing to do anything EXCEPT go to NCS again and take a week off. I do not have the vacation time to do that anymore. I still have copies of everything I've done. I can essentially hand someone an entire program on a silver platter. All that would need to be done is update it to the new advancement, i.e. these activities meet these requirements. Heck the old PD just dropped off all the supplies at my house for storage. I do not want that stuff going into the maw that is the council service center. It will either be lost, damaged, or sent to the main camp never to be seen by Cub Scouts again. Already had to have a DE get involved in getting my supplies once from summer camp. They didn't order their supplies in a timely manner, and tried to "requisition" mine! Hardest part would be recruiting folks. I hate to ask someone to do something that I can't do. Desertrat and Qwasze, Kinda hard to let go of something you busted your butt to improve. Our "Down Period" lasted over 10 years. I remember being a DE and going to day camp to support it and it only had 7 Cubs attending. Yes, you heard me 7! By the time I first staffed it in 2009, we had 22. We had 3 good years, then in decline again. I served in the background trying to pull it together, and became the PD again at the last minute when the CD was "fired" for not attending council day camp meetings. But since I've stepped back a second time, it has faded fast and is essentially flatlined Yes, it's been hard on me emotionally because of the decline. Desertrat and SeattlePioneer, The DE, his boss the DD, and the District Chair all know about the situation. I hate to say it, but the DC, and most of the committee, is more focused on Boy Scout than Cub Scouts. I'm actually the only CS rep to show up at the meetings. Others feel it's a waste of time. As for the DE, he is brand new, and to be honest I believe he will be assigned summer duties at the council's HA base. He is NCS certified for that program since he worked there 3 summer prior to being a DE. As for the DD, don't know about except he is extremely overworked managing 3 large districts by himself while sharing the DE with another DD ( don't ask, our professional org is screwed up with DEs covering multiple districts, in some cases multiple service areas) JoeBob, That's a good idea. Possibly evening or weekend activites may be better. Less paperwork to deal with. And wouldn't have to deal with NCAP. RS, I wish I could take another vacation! Hopefully by the time 2017 comes around, I will have enough time to do so.

I admit I have not been active as a knight for a while, so I do not know what is going on. I can say this though. The KofC are not under direct parish control, but do have control from religious authorities. Although they do a lot for the local parish. Some parishes do not have a KofC council, and some KofC councils will have there own club houses separate from the parish property. I know that one KofC parish I was in had such a club house, and that is where the troop met. KofC viewed Scouting as part of their ''patriotism'' obligation, and only a few Scouts were members of the Catholic Church. That said, I have mixed emotions on this. Taking it at face value, I see where the focus should be on the church and its members, so the move has a non-legal reason for it. But I also see where it can be seen as a move to protect the KofC from lawsuits since they may been seen as a civic group. So the move maybe how the KofC will protect themselves and their obligation to follow Catholic orthodoxy, while continueing to support Scouting. One concern I have is anti-Catholic bias and bigotry. You would be surprised at how many folks do not associate the KofC with the Catholic Church. They would let their kids join a KofC chartered unit, but ''hell will freeze over before I go to meetings at a [)(+!¦% Catholic Church.''