Eagle94-A1

So I'm splitting from the "Signs that your unit might be adult led" thread. Not going to try and repost stuff from over there. I do think having multiple groups coming in at different times is part of the problem. Especially since the three different packs had three different leader/parent models, especially on the Webelos level. One pack had a DL who started BS leader training early, has a lot of outdoor experience, and started the "transition" as Webelos 1s. Second pack had a similar leader and similar expereinces. The Third pack however, was heavily leader run, even at the Webelos level. Parents were heavily involved, and from my experience with them, did everything for the Cubs. That group has a majority. Stosh mentioned someone playing games. I do think one of our scouts IS playing games. I think he's forced to be in Scouts by mom, and is constantly negative, causes some of the arguments, and has gotten physical twice on two occasions. When we talked to mom about this, the excuse was medications cause this. Thankfully they are moving soon. As to why they are sticking around? I know one want more challenging expereinces, and spend time with his best friend. However he is thinking about switching to another troop. Right now the weekend backpacking trip, summer camp, and AT trail are his motivation for staying. One Scout want to be just like dad and be an Eagle. IMHO, he has a BIG challenge with his grandmother, whom he lives with. She spoils him rotten, and does everything for him. One Scout enjoys Scouting and wants to be an Eagle. One wants a troop that is more active, i.e. camps every month. Sad thing is he's had to miss camping due to Dad and weekends. Two enjoy Scouting, or so they say. But when the going gets rough, they go to dad, if he's there, or the leaders. The other has a cell phone on autodial to momma. And she WILL pick him up as soon as possible as evidenced at summer camp. The rest I don't know yet. In regards to changing the patrols NOW, there are a few challenges. First, I'm not the SM, nor a member of the CO, so I do have to have their support. Unlike most COs, they ARE involved. They may not be as active as they should be, they are active and do support the troop. Changes, especially major ones like the one we are planning to do, they want to know about. Heck the CC was upset he didn't sign off on a leader's application b/c the IH, who is also an ASM, signed it instead, and forgot to tell him. Second, We talked to the Older Scouts about this and gave them to April to come up with any ideas to improve the situation. We want their input, want them to come up with ideas, maybe somethings the adults haven't come up with yet, and give them some ownership of the problem. Coming back to them and saying 'We gotta do this NOW" will destroy whatever trust in us, and ownership of the problem. Third, we got to give the PLs and troop level leaders some time in their positions. MORE LATER Fourth, we got to talk to the SM about not appointing APLs and troop level positions. I think that's another issue causing problems. APL was appointed by the SM, and it wasn't even the guy who was one vote away from being the PL. Then again, the PL may have selected his best friend instead of someone capable of the job. At least the SM did pick some capable of the job. But that hasn't been the case before as my son noted.

I'm splitting off to give this topic it's own thread. I think we've gone off topic.

One thing I forgot to add. The SPL had me work with them while he and the older scouts planned their AT trip. I role played the situation of the missing duty roster and how to solve it. I modeled how we did things back in the day, i.e. pairing an "experienced Scout" with a "new Scout" so that the older Scout taught the younger one. Most of them heard for the first time that the troop is expecting anywhere from 14 to 24 new Scouts in December, and that THEY will need to step up and work with them as THEY should know how things should be done. At first they were shocked, but then it went away. Oldest told me that he heard on Scout say that there is no way we are getting 14 new Scouts in December, let alone 24. Long road ahead.

Stosh, I try to keep an open mind. So no, I won't ignore. I do think I need to adapt. I'm use to adults staying out of the way of the Scouts, interjecting only for safety purposes. And obviously this isn't working. Heck my son even said it last nite when we talked to the situation. He said they won't listen to anyone "except the adults and possibly the older Scouts." Wish I still had my 3d edition SMHB, because I remember a training regime in it that may work. I guess I'm the one keeping the situation together at the moment. Not so much for fun, it's not, but more to keep the other two patrols that are working from being split apart at this moment. Several of the adult leaders want to split up the patrols NOW. I keep saying let the situation continue until the next unit elections, which will be May 2nd. Why until then? Because that is traditionally when new SPL and PLs get elected. Also I want to give the older Scouts a chance to come up with ideas to change the situation that the adults may not have thought of. At the moment, it's looking like the a complete revamp of the patrols into mixed aged. I am pushing and promoting and commenting that the Scouts need to decide which patrols they join instead of assigning them to patrols. But maybe we do need to speed up the transition process? Yes, that is correct. 2 have been in for 13 months. One of those went to summer camp with the troop and attended 10/12 of the monthly activities since joining. The 2nd Scout went provisional to summer camp, and has been to approximately <50% of the activities. 2 have been in since April. One went the entire week of summer camp, the other had mom pick him up Wednesday at 6:30AM. They have gone on 10/10 monthly activities. 2 have been in since June. Both went to summer camp and have done 6 or 7 /8 activities since joining. 1 came aboard in October. hasn't done any of the monthly activities due to conflicts with parental custody. 1 came aboard in January. He's truly brand new. But he missed the camp out due to the parental custody situation. And we got a brand new guy on this last campout and meeting. He's in the process of filling out paperwork. And that is another reason for the frustration. 6 of the 8 Scouts have been together since June, and they are still acting like a bunch of Cubs. Again, I think part of the reason was their original TG, who became the PL later. In stead of guiding them and teaching them to do things on their own, he told them exactly what to do and how to do it. Although there were some complaints about him as TG, they did elect him PL. Complaints did increase during his tenure as PL, and when his term ended, he went back to his original patrol. Thinking back, the duty roster situation started when he didn't attend a trip, and no one had a copy of it. Then it has continued since he moved back to his patrol.

Yes, one reason why I'm glad the SPL took over and let me calm down. And then when I saw that he was getting agitated I stepped in again since I was calm. You would think that dealing with the exact problem at least 4 months in a row, no/missing duty roster on the trip, they would heed the advice of their SPL, and the adults who had have to get involved when they got out of control. SPL asked me to work the situation last night while he dealt with the older scout patrol. So we role played and demonstrated how it ad uty roster can be created within 7 minutes, and that included going off on tangent just like they do. As for the TG, I know he's getting frustrated. We talked a little about them not listening to him, and his decision to let them learn the hard way and make their mistakes. Also talked about how the PL isn't really doing his job, and how the PL ignore him, then tries to blame him for his mistakes. And he's a little peeved that 1/2 the patrol left when he told them they need to stay a few minutes to finalize Scout Sunday, including the PL. I so wish I wasn't the NSP ASM. I feel like CS leader again at times. I see my son growing up and taking responsibility ( YEAH!), but then getting frustrated when they don't listen. And for me, It's very uncomfortable because at the back of my mind I'm thinking am I an interfering daddy, or a long time scouter who is getting involved as needed. As Ramirez sang to Macleod, " B-A-L-A-N-C-E balance."

Again, the BSA's lack of consistency shows it ugly face again! i know your state is on BSA's Website, but so is the "Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old." I made ( color added to show the three separate sentance that make up this compound sentence. ) http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/2016BoyScoutRequirements_8.14.2015.pdf

As you know, my troop is HEAVILY adult run, and I hate every minute of it. Our NSP is having so much trouble, that I was appointed the NSP ASM. Did I mention I HATE NSPs because they tend to be Webelos IIIs? This weekend was interesting. NSP had the same repeated problems and PL would not take responsibility. No one would. I went off. until the SPL took over, let me calm down, and then I went back to them because the SPL was beginning to go off on them. For whatever reason, they won't listen to the PL, whom they elected, nor the TG, who voluntarily left this patrol to help them out because they needed help. Last night the same thing happened again. Bickering and arguing over what to do on Scout Sunday. It got to the point where I had to interevene and tell them point blank, do I need to treat them like a bunch of Cub Scouts? That got their attention for about a minute. I left the room and when I and another leader pass by, its back to the arguing and bickering. Since nothing was accomplished while they were suppose to, TG said they need to stay a few minutes after the meeting to finish what they were suppose to do. Out of the 9 who were at the meeting, 4 stayed. So TG will be telling his PL what will be going on on Sunday. Part of the problem is that the NSP comprises Scouts that A) came from 4 different packs at 4 different times. We had 2 packs do their main Cross Over in December 2014. Then the 3rd pack crossed over in Marc or April 2015. The we had 2 folks who met the 10 and Earn AOL requirement in 6 months, and crossed over in June instead of December with the rest of the den. Then we got another new Scout who transferred troops. It's a mess and EVERYONE, youth and adult is starting to hate NSP concept. I can see why the original TG, who was elected PL, acted like a "dictator" or "boss" as several Scouts put it: that was the only way for him to get them to do things.But having a dictator, or an adult for that matter, telling them what do to every single minute doesn't help them grow. Nor does the 'Mommas" or in one case "Grandma." Instead of letting their sons take responsibility, learn to over come adversity, and do things for themselves, they allow their sons to sneak in a cell phone when the adult leaders specifically asked that no cell phones be brought to camp. And when that sons calls in the middle of the night complaining about the heat, bugs, and sleeping in tents, instead of telling him to deal with it, drives over first thing in the morning to pick him up. Instead of letting the kid take responsibility for the position they were elected to do, they tell the other scouts to do it. Instead of letting the kid do the shopping, they do it for them, buy more than what they are suppose to buy or buy the wrong stuff altogether, and go over budget, then complain when they have to pay out of pocket for the food that ends up being thrown away becasue the kids didn't pack it right in the cooler. Try to talk to them about it, and they make excuses.

The challenge is that the BSA HAS changed who can be involved in Scouts since the statement above was originally made. Requirement 1 of the new Scout Rank requirements states the following: Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old. So using that requirement we have 3 different starting points: A) 11 years of age B) completed 5th grade C) Earned AOL and is 10 years old. I don't like this. I think something similar to Venturing would be better, i.e. 11 years, or completed 5th grade and 10.5 years, or Earned the AOL and is 10. Still three starting points, but alot closer together.

This may seem odd, but I understand where the age minimums come from. When I did BA 22 way back in the day, we had someone with an age waiver do the program. 12 years old and a brand new First Class Scout. The kid was a major burden on an already challenging patrol situation ( 13 and 14 year olds from all over the council) and could not hack the program. he deliberately infected his blisters in order to avoid the backpacking portion of the program.

Thanks for the offer, but we have plan B going. 1 Weekend prep trip in May ( and I get to go on too ) 1 seven day trip on the AT in July, and hooking up with the original contingent leader's old troop that has spots for 2017.

AMEN. My troop has had some real issues of late. In regards to challenges, when one NSP member complained about the lack of challenging campouts of late, another member said "quit complaining. We want easy camp outs." Not happy about that. Found out the Philmont trip is cancelled due to lack of leadership being able to go ( VERY LONG STORY). BUT we already had a weekend trip planned and are still going. Same guy who did the prep trip planning, approached the group with an idea to do a 50 mile section of the AT. Catch is that some folks who were not qualified for Philmont would need to be going, so it would be opened up. Long story short, they were ecstatic to do it, and 2 folks who were not going to Philmont are doing the AT. One wasn't going due to age. But he's been backpacking since age 8, including a 40 miler. Other has no interest at all in rank, so he can't go to Philmont.

As others have mentioned, Scout Sabbath is this Saturday. My troop's CO is doing Scout Sunday this Sunday. It's been a week behind since Oldest joined. I thought part of the reason is that we go camping after putting out the Scouting for Food flyers. Picking up the food, counting, and delivering to the food bank takes a lot longer. But I just discoverd that The United Methodist Church celebrate Scout Sunday on the second Sunday of February as not to conflict with Transfiguration Sunday. Now the CO of the pack my younger two are in is interesting. When we first joined, we did it in March and did it with the Girls Scouts in attendance. It was only when I mentioned we were celebrating Scout Sunday a month late, that the leader coordinating Scout Sunday with the CO realized that the Girl Scout Sunday is different than Boy Scout Sunday. When we arranged Scout Sunday the following year, we had it scheduled a week late. It was the Sunday before Valentine's Day, and the sermon was a little too much for some of the Cubs and parents attending. We didn't have another one until this year.

My youngest son's den is having some issues with leadership. When I move to Boy Scouts, I was hoping they would find a DL to replace me. It took longer than they anticipates, and he would a weird schedule where he can make meetings every other week. they have earned no belt loops at this time, but have done a ton of requirements across the spectrum of belt loops.

Younger sons' pack had Scout Sunday Service at the CO. Their pack and almost all of the units in the council Did Scouting for Food part 1 yesterday, and will do Part 2 next week. Oldest son's troop and I also did a camp out. We have "Scout Sunday" next week.

Forgot to add right after I quit being a DE and I left the area briefly, the council decided to harvest all the trees in the camp. There was a major protest, especially from those with local Girl Scout connections. The Girl Scouts after a merger clear cutted two camps and sold them off. Council backed down. A few years later new SE comes in. Pro-local camp and spent some money and energy cleaning up the camp and making improvements (remember the year of the big snow storms? Hell froze over not only because the Saints won the Superbowl, but a SE was doing "cheerful service" at an OA Ordeal ). Anyway the topic of harvesting trees comes up again. While their was some initial fury at even talking about it, when he and others went out to the RTs and other Scouting meetings to talk why cutting was needed (fire hazards, needed more usable space for campsites, parking, and new structures at camp), what areas it was going to be done in ( not the entire camp selected areas cleared, but most would be thinned), as well as how it was going to be done ( hand logging; More money to do it, but minimal impact on camp). People calmed down a bit. But when the word that the loggers cut a little more than they were suppose to, people got ticked off again, until they saw the camp. That extra bit revealed a campsite that hadn't been used in ages ( some of the old timers even forgot about the campsite), and the camp looked nice. With the reforestation program they did, 7 years later the camp looks AWESOME. One new building has been built, and one building is in the planning stages. That one is trickier due to EPA regs. As for what happens if the council decides to do away with the camp, I'm betting a lot of FOS dollars will go towards buying the camp from the family. Considering that some of the family that gave us the land are still active in Scouting, as well as THE biggest donors to the council love the camp (they renamed the main camp in the family's honor), it may be purchased by volunteers.

I do not know all of the details, even when I was a DE. But my understanding is that the camp is in a trust. We ever decide to give up the camp, it goes back to the family that donated it in the 1920s. One of my worst fears is that the camp will no longer be used by the council. The family has developed the area, and McMansions are springing up around the camp. That happened to the original council camp in my home council growing up. The city kept expanding its jurisdiction until the camp was inside city limits. neighbors complained about all the traffic and racket. Even though we were there when it was a swamp.

i prefer the old Show, Tell, Do method of instruction. But I think the acronym is not Scout friendly.

In my council,we do Scouting for Food. Saturday before the official Scouting week, we put out flyers. Scout Sabbath is spent collecting the food, and bringing it to local food pantries. We made the switch for two reasons way back when. 1) To do a service project during Scout Week and 2) we found the food pantries in our area needed the food most in February. Lots of groups do food collecting in the Nov-Dec time frame for Thanksgiving and Christmas. And sometimes they have a bit of food left over for January. But come February, they are very low on supplies. My troop does put up a window display at a local buisness and does Scout Sunday. Part of that is tradition. Part of that is it is part of the point system used in our council camporee.

Mea culpa. That was a very good lesson for me. Even when dealing with issues, have situational awareness.

Yes, our OA sells candy bars and drinks. They also sell coffee, hot cocoa, fruit, and non food items. With our big Cub Scout event, they sell Hot Dog Lunch Plates. I bought a pair of "experienced" Scout pants for middle son, and some vintage POR patches for me. We've sold book bags, ponchos, books, coffee mugs, and all kinds of stuff. At one point, our council decided to let the original camp go to pieces. Minimal support. Anything that needed repairing or done, the local OA chapter and troops had to do. It's one reason why my troop always wants the same campsite year after year: they were the ones that bought the supplies for, and dug the lines for, the water spigot in the campsite. They also helped build a bridge connecting it to another campsite Prior to our just recently retired SE who made the camp a priority, my chapter was the ones that bought 50-60% of the tools, paid for maintenance, repairs, and improvements to the QM shed, and took care of the camp after hurricanes. Even with more being invested, we've still bought the supplies and built 1 new shelter, repaired a second shelter, bought the supplies need to fix some Adirondacks. And all the money came from the trading post. One thing the OA did, but we had to cut it since we lost our donor, was a lunch fellowship NC style pig-pickin. We raised a lot of money with that pig-pickin, and had a lot of fun too.

I know an SM who did that at Philmont. He's been there before and knew when the crew took the wrong path. He just followed along. 1.5 hours later, they realize they took the wrong trail. OOPS. I know when I was caboose one time on a troop backpacking trip, the Scouts I was with missed the switchback that led to the campsite. I didn't even know we missed it as I was following the leader, and trying to keep one of our new guys encouraged. THANKFULLY the LC sent out a search party, and we only had to double back about 15-20 minutes.

I've decided not to post on the blog because I need to "...knock it off with them negative waves." I think changing the MBs as well as the ranks just about every year IS a recipe for a mess. I've already cited the case about the Scout who had to get an extension for Eagle because he used one set of requirements with his old troop, only to find out when he went to a new troop the requirements had changed, and his old troop should have notified him of the changes. Heck 1/2 the troop was concerned about the rank requirements, and that was after me going over it several times.

With the exception of the OA trading post, I could live with it. Reason for the OA exemption is that the trading post money goes to OA projects at the camp, and a campership to summer camp. And the OA needs some money at the moment. We just finished fully refurbishing a shelter, and are in the middle of rebuilding a bridge from one campsite to the rest of the camp. In fact, I think we don't have the campership money for this year, hoping to sell enough at a Webeloree next month to cover the campership.

9MM was actually mentioned by someone. Trek leader said " Too Heavy" Forgot to add, I had a brand recommended, approved by the EPA, so I ordered it. Thanks guys. I just hope I won't need it.

We got a group needing some backpacking practice before Philmont. Since I missed the last backpacking trip, I'm definitely going this round. Going into bear country, and I'm not worried about "Bear Bells." I dance both Northern Traditional and Southern Straight, so bells aren't an issue. Bear repellent is something new for me. Any recommendations on brand and size? I am an old fogey now with a slight arm issue, so I am now trying to minimize weight as much as possible. Thanks in advance. Eagle94-a1