Eagle94-A1

I know Green Bar Bill was listed as an Eagle Scout, don't know if it's honorary, or if he got it pre-adult ban. But he was a Knisght Scout in Denmark.

Yes, national doesn't want any changes of the NYLT: no more calling the course Brownsea, Golden Acorn, or any other name used in the past or locally. Nothing is to be added to or taken away from the program. And If I'm not mistaken NYLT course directors also need to attend training on par with WB course director at the regional/national level. As for beads and other bling not being a big deal, it can be. I've done uniform inspections for camporees in the past. I've seen some unauthorized bling on NYLT grads, and when I point out that it's not authorized and I will need to take off points, you need to see the reactions they, and their SMs, will give me.

I hate to say it, but I have found the last BSHB, "the recommended literature," severely wanting in regard to IOLS skills. It was so bad, I had to create a booklet from older BSA literature to supplement what the handbook had. So what is right, using the current BSA information that is inadequate or incorrect, or adding to the course by providing additional material from older BSA sources? Unfortunately being a leader in the BSA is not a "science" in the classical sense of the word, but rather an "art." One size does not fit all, and you need to adapt to the situation in order to provide the best program for your youth. Best example of that for me is the New Scout Patrol and the First Class, First Year mentality. While I know of units the NSPs work, I know of units where they do not work. Mixed aged patrols, which was the recommended BSA model from 1910 to 1989, do work for those patrols. What should a leader do: continue using the current recommended model which is causing Scouts to get frustrated and quit, or change to a mixed aged model that keeps folks in the program? What is better, force feeding Scouts S-T-2-1 skills so they can meet an arbitrary goal, First Class in a year, but they have no mastery of the skills, or have the Scouts take their time, "master the skills" as older BSHBs stated, and actually know what they are doing?

I need to play Devil's Advocate because I'm in a situation where I cannot communicate with someone directly, and must use intermediaries. It's not being cowardly, at least on my part, but rather trying to use my resources, specifically someone who the person WILL listen to. The individual has a negative bias towards me as I "betrayed" him and the troop by letting my son choose a different troop that led to his buddies eventually joining. No amount of talking, emailing, begging, NOTHING will get him to reply to any communications. At the camp out 2 weeks ago, we were in the same campsite, and he would not acknowledge my presence. I had to use his long-time friend who is the CM to get him and the troop to become involved with the pack. Yep I had to go behind his back, and use someone to talk some sense into him.

Every lodge is different, every chapter is different, and the type of leadership does help. My chapter is very active. We run the trading post at multiple events at the local camp. over the past 10 years, Approx. $12K was given back to the camp in the form or equipment, and "maintenance." The little remaining goes towards a campership each year. I'm estimating $2,700 over the past 10 years. One of the issues we have is nationals new NCAP that has a "one size fits all" approach. New construction at camps need to use specific designs so that all BSA camps will look identical, and keep the "brand's" image. Sometimes that is not feasible. Best example of that is BSA's bathhouse design not meeting local standards. It's a mess. I know for a fact that not everyone at national has field experience. And it seems as if more and more are getting in and changing things without knowing what they are doing. I saw this first hand when I worked for supply. While they have made some improvements, I like that they sell more camping gear now, they still sell a lot of silly stuff. Anyone remember the AOL belt buckle for leather belts?

The way we did it was teach a class or two on the topic prior to the campout, depended upon the when we did it. (More years doing it, more time we prepped). At the camp out, we spend the morning building shelters. We did patrol shelters, but a few folks did individual ones. Afternoon was pioneering games ( which is apparently another no-no from national now). Eventually we added utensilless cooking. Although the first time we did it was aluminum cooking.

UPDATE. Well it's going to get interesting. WDL will be stepping down June 1 to become Tiger DL with younger son. They are trying to talk my wife into becoming DL since she is the ADL. Wife is considering it. Actually she is being "voluntold" to do it, especially since it's only 6 months we are talking about. Anyway, wife knows how Webelos-to-Scout transitions go. She was involved with another troop when we were in MS. So she plans on making calls to visit every troop in the area. She will be contacting the CO's troop first, and try to get a visit and camp out with them. But everyone will be visiting. I'm hoping the CO's troop does something. I've talked to the Scouts about wilderness survival and Webelos, and they seemed to think it will work. When I told the adults about the idea a few years back, they said I'm crazy.

I'd include Webelos for Wilderness Survival, but do go easy on them. . #1 It can help them meet CASTAWAY ADVENTURE.(caps emphasis) #2 WILDERNESS SURVIVAL IS THE BEST RECRUITING TOOL I HAVE EVER ENCOUNTERED IN 30+ YEARS IN SCOUTING! ( caps emphasis, OK maybe a little shouting at the top of my longs to show enthusiasm ) Seriously, my a fluke my troop did a wilderness survival camp out, and everyone loved it. First time around, we had to improvise heavily as we found out the nite before our gear was destroyed or damaged, but we kept on doing it year after year. I've suggested it to no only the troop I'm with, but also the Cub Scout pack's CO's troop multiple times. The leaders in the CO's troop think I'm nuts for suggesting it, but when I mentioned it to their Scouts last weekend, they think it's a good idea. My troop plans to do it in December, but with some district/council scheduling changes, 8 weeks without a camp out will cause camping withdrawal. Going to mention the schedule changes and suggest they switch activities for November and December, and change dates,

Camping of any sort was not required in order to earn Eagle from 1972-1979. Pages 79 - 91 of the 1972 handbook shows the requirements, and Camping Skill Award nor Camping MB is required. Tenderfoot required Citizenship Skill Award, an elective Skill Award, and 1 MB Second Class required 3 additional Skill Awards, and 2 MBs. First Class required 3 additional Skill Awards and 2 MBs. That for a total of 5 MBs which 2 had to be Cit Com and First Aid. Star Required a Scout to have total of 9 MBs which an additional 2 had to be Eagle Required. Life required 15 total MBs with7 Eagle required And of Course Eagle required 24 MBs with the following required: First Aid Cit Com Cit Nat Cit World Communications Safety Emergency Prep Env. Sci Personal Management OR Personal Fitness OR Swimming OR Sports Notice Camping is missing? While the book does contain some information on camping, it is not as extensive as previous editions, nor GBB's 1979 edition. My brothers, when they transfered troops do to a move, the troop didn't camp, and they left. My cousin, who is an Eagle, does not remember camping as much as his son's troop did. Nor did his troop ever do OA elections ( he didn't know a thing about the OA until I became a member and talked about it.) Yep he became an Eagle in the 1970s. While not every unit took the outing out of Scouting, my troop certainly didn't, it was usually those units with established leaders prior to tyhe ISP that had the outdoor program.

If Backpacking is limited to 14+, then my troop is in trouble. Troop is doing a 50 miler on the AT instead of Philmont due to leadership issues. We couldn't get enough leaders to go to Philmont this year. But we now have an ASM heading up the AT trek only because his 12 year old can do the AT, but not Philmont. 12 year old is looking forward to redoing that section of the AT again. It's been 3 years since he did it. EDITED: Just noticed that Wilderness and Backcountry is limited to 14+. Where are we suppose to go camping, only at Scout camps? Why do I think the folks who wrote these guidelines were either A) Never in Scouts or B) In Scouts in the 1970s when they took the OUTING out of ScOUTING.

Sad thing is, you got folks who will look at part of the document, without reading the entire thing. And it is confusing. We did orienteering courses at day camp, and the cubs loved it. When we did geocaching with the Webelos in December, we also threw in "old school geocaching:" orienteering. Again the Webelos loved. it. Maybe I should call the orienteering course a 'map and compass" course?

In regards to Knights and Cubs, I guess we could go all the way back to our Founder, who in 1907 Was only LtGen SIR (emphasis Robert Stephen Smyth Baden Powell, CB (Companion in the Most Honorable Order of the Bath). By the time Cub Scouts was first established in 1916, BP was promoted to a KCB ( Knight Commander in the Most Honorable Order of the Bath), and had the KCVO (Knight Commander in the Royal Victorian Order) and was a KStJ ( Knight of Justice in the Most Veneralable Order of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem) So our founder was a knight before becoming a Baron. BP used knights throughout his scouting literature. You can see some of his artwork if you google it. As for the use of Knights in BSA, I remember Green Bar Bill using BP's Code of Chivarly in the handbooks. Apparently the new CS program incorporates Knights in its program http://www.scouting.org/filestore/cubscouts/pdf/YEAR2/310-842%2815%29_November%20Courteous_WEB.pdf I've seen lots of knights in Cub Scouts throughout the years, including NCS stuff on Chivalry.

So, I'm reviewing stuff, and on this site http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspxit says that 12 years olds can do Outpost Camping. 1) Why separate Boy Scouts into 11 and 12 year olds? 1a) What about the 10 year old Boy Scouts? 2) What the heck is "Outpost Camping" On this site, http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416_Insert_Web.pdf, it states that Bears can cook in the outdoors, but they can't build a fire or used fueled devices like stoves. So.. 3) How they heck are they suppose to cook? And if survival training is part of CASTAWAY... 4) How the Heck are Webelos suppose to earn CASTAWAY if they cannot build fires, nor use them for signalling purposes? Other questions 5) If Wolves and Bears can use a map and compass, then why does it say they can't they go orienteering lower on the chart? 6) they can do pioneering bridges and towers, but not other pioneering projects? Regarding Boy Scouts: 7) All Boy Scouts can do Search and Rescue Practice, but only older Scouts, Sea Scouts, and Venturers can do actual missions? One question, and I like that it is allowed 8) When did Webelos get to use bow saws? @@RichardB, I know you have a hand in writing these and you have some field experience at the unit level. But do the others who write this have experience in the field? Some of these guidelines do not make sense.

We have a Second Class in our troop who after 3 years in the troop, FINALLY got Tenderfoot and Second Class. He only got interested in advancement due to Philmont. He just wants to camp. Funny thing is, he probably has enough MBs and time in PORs to be at least Star, and possibly Life IF he would just done the SM Conference over the years.

Goose, There is a very heavy push with LDS units, at least with the ones I've seen. Also a lot more adult oriented, i.e. the adults run things instead of the youth. part of it is the way the program is run. 11 years olds meet separately from the rest of the troop, are limited to the number of camp outs they can do, and have an assigned adult leader working with them. Some sat it's Webelos III, and I think the LDS units are the model for NSPs. Also because Scouting is THE official LDS youth program, positions in the troop correspond to positions in the church, so members of the PLC are appointed, rather than elected. Another challenge with LDS units is consistency with adult leadership. Generally the adults are appointed to the positions by teh bishop. While the goal is now 3 -5 years between appointments, as one of my LDS friends told me, the further away from Salt Lake City you go, the wider the variety of Scouting. So I've seen SMs appoitned for less than 12 months!

A few comments. 1) As mentioned, BSA doesn't have a ban on sheath knives, let alone swords. In fact the Bryan on Scouting Blog used a sword as an April Fools joke a few years back. 2) Some councils do impose a 'no sheath knife rule." Sometimes its due to legal jurisdictions banning such knives, sometimes for other reasons. 3) Legal jurisdictions vary, and some do ban certain types of knives, and swords. 4) I want a copy of the ceremony! Just can't use any of the swords I have access to. All are sharpened, except Narsil, and it's broken into a bunch a shards. I'm hoping to get it fixed someday.

I believe there were only 25 Sea Scout Quartermasters last year. Having been a Sea Scout (only got to Ordinary), I can tell you that Eagle Scout is a heck of alot easier than Quartermaster.

A few comments on the Finns. 1) I may have gotten the ages wrong. It's been 21 years. But essentially the Cub and Older Scout programs are coed. 2) Reason why they separate for Scout age youth is two fold: a) is to keep the traditional Scout and Guide titles and rank structure b) all boys and all girl units do better than coed at that age. Unless things have changed, the Finnish association's emblem is a Cross with the FDL and Trefoil emblems at the points. Stosh, 18 months of kayaking! OUTSTANDING! As for social dynamics, there is some of that. I know I was talking to middle son's WDL, whom the wife is AWDL for. Long story short, the comment made is that she does tend to "mother" them a bit, and the WDL has to tell her to wait and let them try. She readily admits that she is still in "Cub" mode, and "mothers" them too much. She is working on that. Especially since the WDL is moving back to Tigers come June 1st. Wife is trying to resist being WDL, but "it's only an hour a week for 6 months." An aside, I think this is the biggest difference between my pack and some others in our area. In my pack we start the transition process to Boy Scouts as soon as they become Webelos. Most packs start it in March of Webelos, it not later, and that is due to preparing for Webeloree. Looking at the scores for the past 3 years, my pack has come out either first or second. And it's usually the uniform inspection that separates us from 1st or 2nd. At the Webeloree this year, we had leaders helping the Cubs load the catapults, assisting in transporting the catapults, etc. Stuff the Cubs were suppose to be able to do by themselves. Only thing the WDL did was stake down the catapult. And that was after the judge said it would be OK to do that since we were on rocky ground, and even the adults had a hard time staking it down. I think part of the issue with my troop's NSP is that some of the Scouts have been doing patrol method for a year or longer before coming to the troop, whereas others have had less than that, if any.

Need to add to my post about female leaders being detrimental to Boy Scout troops. Thinking about it, those leaders involved with Boy Scout troops usually had involvement with Girl Scouts as a youth. While I don't know much about Girl Scouts, I do know they focus a lot on badges. And those units with heavy female involvement tend to focus more on badges, and less on outing. Sad when 4 weekend campout and summer camp is all that is required for a troop be qualify for Bronze JTE.

The Finns I worked with described their organization as such: Cub Scout ( 7-11?) = coed Boy Scouts= All Male (12- 15?) Girl Guides or Scout (can't remember)= All Female Rovers(?) (15+?) = coed I know the SA's pre-2007 policy was popular when I was over there. I ran into an all male Scout troop, and a friend started an all female Scout troop since the Guide troop wasn't meeting her and others expectations. I don't think BSA will ever mandate all units going coed anytime soon. Some COs will not go for it.

'Skip, Unless things have changed in the UK since I was there in '95, the Girl Guides had a MUCH (emphasis) more active outdoor program than the Girl Scouts on this side of the pond. I would say the Girl Guides had an active outdoor program like our old Cub Scout program. Thankfully our Cub Scout program has been revamped to have more outdoor activities. If only we can get the old fogeys who believe "Cubs don't need to camp" out of positions on council camping committees. On this side of the pond, unless you get a leader who likes the outdoors, the Girl Scouts rarely go camping. They mostly do cookie sales. Maryread, At the moment, you are experiencing Cub Scouts. When your son hits Boy Scouts, it will be a HUGE (emphasis) difference. Cub Scouts focuses on family outings and family involvement. Boy Scouts is completely different. Boy Scouts focuses on individual growth and independence. In my experience, parents have a harder time adjusting to Boy Scouts than the boys themselves. Worst offenders are former Cub Scout leaders who cross over. They have spent anywhere from 1-5+ years doing stuff and being in charge, and the former CS leader needs to be "deprogrammed" as one friend calls it, or "Unlearn what you have learned" as Master Yoda puts it. Even those of us who know better have a hard time. Just as I had to adjust from working with Boy Scouts to Cub Scouts ( a lot easier transition I might add) I had to adjust working with Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. Heck just this weekend I had to get an recently crossed over leader away from members of his old den who were screwing up putting up a tent. Regarding females in Scouting, there will be changes, and it will be detrimental to the boys in the program. Yes there are a few great female Scout leaders. I've had the pleasure to work with them. But they are less than 1% of the female leader population. Someone pointed out to me the decline in standards since the introduction of female SMs and ASMs in the late 80s/early 90s. While I personally think OPERATION FIRST CLASS is the biggest reason for the decline in standards, after observing units with large numbers of females in leadership positions, I do believe that has been a factor. I also believe having adult male leaders, growing up in the 1970s "Improved Scouting Program" which took OUTING out of Scouting by not requiring a camping program is another factor.

One summer, we had two Navy corpsmen on TDY to summer camp as medical staff. One day they took the HMMWV to the back side of camp for a little "fun." Not only did they tear up large tracks of land, they also flipped over the HMMWV. I didn't think you could flip a HMMWV over.

I too lament the lack of interest in the OA. Back in the day, it was indeed an honor to get in, heck to even be eligible. I was excited to be on the ballot, and couldn't wait to get in. While my excitement died down since when I got in, the OA chapter didn't do anything, years later, I did get very involved with the OA. So some of it has to do with how active the chapter and/or lodge is. But talking to my son prior to and after my troop's OA election in December, one in which he was on the ballot, he could care less if he got in or not.

a few thoughts. 1) I too emphasized the patrol method when I do SM Specific. IMHO, the patrol method is the foundation of Scouting along with the outdoors. No patrol= No Scouting. 2) The current BSA Table of Organization for a troop, has only been around since 1989, about 27 years. Prior to that it was mixed aged patrols with some type of Older Scout patrol, some time in the 1920s to 1989, or approximately 69 years. And prior to that, it was pure mixed aged patrols. While some have had success with NSPs, I and others have not. So I have no problem with troops that continue using mixed aged patrols. Mixed aged patrols do work. 3) If memory serves, the concept of SPL came about because of William Hillcourt, and his experiences as a Scout in Denmark. If I recall correctly, the other PLs voted for him to be SPL in order to help them out and mentor. Over the years, the SPL has gotten more and more responsibilities. I admit, I like the entire troop voting for SPL, even when I disagree with their decision, or as was the case last year SHOCKED by the decision to elect a first year Scout as SPL BUT I would rather have the PLs elect the SPL, than have an adult appoint him. While it may not be the norm now, it was the norm at onetime.

Update on the weekend. 6 Scouts and 2 leaders came. They didn't run any events, but at least they camped and did some stuff in the campsite with the Webelos. Baby steps. Current CM and CO's SM go way back, and I mean WWWWWAAAAAAAYYYYYY back. CM worked with SM before the birth the of SM's son, and CM was there for the SM's son's birth. And vice versa. SM actually recruited the CM when CM's son was a Tiger. So after the troop left today, CM and I had a chat. Apparenlty the SM feels betrayed by the pack, hence the lack of involvement. SM feels that I am to blame for my oldest son and 3 of his den mates going to our troop. Then when the next Webelos Den crossed over, felt betrayed again because 1 went to my troop, and another went to a different troop.And when last year's CM's son went over to my troop, again furthered the betrayal. As for the lack of involvement with, the Webeloree is run by a fellow from my troop. He is the one who when asked by his pastor to restart the pack, left my pack and became CM. Eventually 1/2 the pack left to join the new pack. So there is still some resentment there. I'm trying to stay out of it. I want the relationship to be reesablished. I want the troop getting involved. Heck I had a chat with some of the Scouts aroundthe campfire talking about one of the best recruiting tools; Wilderness Survival, especially since now CASTAWAY is an elective adventure,.