Eagle94-A1

My old camp's staff motto, "Can't fix it, duct it. Can't duct it, chuck it."

Don't be, in fact in all of my time in Scouting, I've only seen recruiting and uniform materials with the AOL badge on the uniform. That's because as soon as they earn AOL, they can become Boy Scouts.

Motivation for this is the NSP format is not working. With the exception of the recent Crossover and a transfer, everyone in the NSP have been in a minimum of 6 months, with most 10 months are more. The youth should be able to handle things by now without coming to the adults for every little thing. I'll give you an example, an argument broke out over how to do KP and the importance of doing it correctly. TG got involved, attempted to deal with it, and eventually an adult had to butt in. One of the Scouts started yelling and crying because he didn't get the poptarts (please don't go there) he wanted. Yep adults got involved briefly because he was cutting up like there was an accident. Luckily the three adults basically said get over it, with one saying be thankful you are allowed poptarts, that would never be allowed in the troop when he was a Scout. It's gotten so bad, that I've been assigned as the "NSP ASM," which is all honesty I don't think should even exist. In the troops I've been in, except for one, the older Scouts were able to do the mentoring and counseling. Adults didn't have to get involved in the patrols' business. All of the leaders want the boys to take more control and ownership. The Scouts should be able to handle the basics, and it is not happening. And in all honesty our NSPs are essentially adult created. All new Scouts are automatically put into them. Once they get First Class, they move up. Our game plan is to talk to the older scouts first. We want to talk to them to get ideas that we may not have thought about, and talk about the ideas we have and come up with a solution agreeable to them. The other two patrols we are not worried about because they will follow their lead. Already saw that with the annual planning conference. That's why we want their input, and some of us were against setting qualifications on who can PL. I know I have one idea on how things can work based upon my experience, but as is constantly mentioned, all scouting is local. Plus as repeated mentioned , the Scouts need to be the decision makers. I also want the PLs to pick their own APL, instead of "nominations for APL" and the SM selecting them (that was in my unit elections thread, but I am going to bring that up later, say at the March-April meeting with the older scouts). I want the youth to make the decisions. And one of the issues is that the SM, because he has not had support to get the troop up and running, did do more than he should of to get the troop up and running. I'm thinking he realizes that mistake, and is trying to come up with ideas to resolve it, hence the leaders meeting. In fact, this has been the first one I know of in the 2 years! But again, up until recently, he was the only adult to show up at every meeting and camp out. The rest of us have been involved in Cub Scouts. We've tried different things to develop teamwork to include initiative games. It's been interesting to put it mildly. For whatever reason they are not melding. I think part of that is that the entire patrol is not camping at the same time, it's always 3/4 of the patrol, and usually it's different ones. As for the ideas of trust, that may be part of it. It's only been in the past year that the Scouts really and truly started organizing and running the instruction. I admit, I've been one of those pushing for that and helping the Scouts to do the job. And I also admit I'm part of the problem at times. There was a spell where both the SPL and ASPL were MIA. I took the liberty of organizing the Scouts and one or two leaders, who I knew had the knowledge, skills, and abilities to teach the instruction for the month they were MIA. What's interesting is that the Scouts, while skeptical that the other Scouts could actually do the job, LOVED IT. They have slowly taken on the job. Have they made mistakes, yep. Are the older Scouts learning from them. Yep. The older Scouts are SLOWLY coming around. As for TGs I know that is a problem. Until when my son joined, the troop was a one patrol troop. SM has 0 experience with TGs, and the ASM who brought it up and implemented has not been around to help. Plus they were in the 13 year old range as we were such a new and young troop. Oldest member just turned 15. By temporary, I mean we hope that the older Scouts can be such good examples, the rest of the troop will take off, especially when we get the mass induction in December. We really want the older Scouts to take on troop level PORs and be a "Leadership Corps" for lack of a better term, and let the 12-14 years olds get their hands on some experience working with new guys in their patrols. But the comment was made that the decision to do away with NSPs should be reevaluated six months after it is implemented. I agree they didn't know what they were doing when they picked their patrol name. It took them almost a month to pick it, and it was selected because when they did a vote on names it had the most votes (2). As for training, believe it or not, 2/3s of the patrol did ILST because we did it as a troop activity. That was a requirement in place for PL: was having done the ILST training, or go through it within a month of election. I admit I had a part to play in that in that I wanted ILST done for leaders in the troop. However my son said everyone should probably take it, and planned it as such when he was SPL. Ok enough of being a proud papa. As for trading scouts, that's the idea at the next unit elections. I don't they will be cracker jacks by May, but I could be wrong. On a different note, I've been assigned to be the NSP's ASM. Reason being that other than the SM and "heir apparent," I'm the only other leader who does not have a son in the NSP since "the TG doesn't count as a member." I've already started talking about my new role with my son the TG. He's ok with me helping to teach skills, more hands to help teach the easier it is. But he wants me to butt out when problems arise until he asks for help. I'm good with that, but it's the recently crossed over CS leaders that I'm worried about. Please keep the questions and advice coming. I've been fortunate to be in established troops in the past, save one which I wasn't around long for. I admit I feel like I'm on a highwire doing a balancing act. I want the youth to take over, make the plans, etc. But I think the youth are afraid to try new things, fear the adults are going to overrule them or something similar.

Good questions. Slow would be an understatement. Dysfunctional would be a better term. 4 hours to cook and clean? As for why the adults are "afraid," I honestly do not know. I do know that one patrol has been having problems getting basic menus and duty roosters done, and that is with a TG trying to help. Same patrol wanted to change their name, and 1.5 months later still have not come up with a new name. That play's a little bit for me. But the biggest thing is that the troop hasn't tried mixed aged patrols since they were restarted, and have not been really boy led, not used the patrol method as I know, experience, and taught. Although I have been with them for 2 years now, it's only been since summer that I have been to every meeting I 've been able to witness how things have been done. I've mentioned the elections process in another thread. Plus the Scouts know the situation is not good, but don't want to offer solutions. As to why the troop is in the situation of trying to sort out which patrol style old school or new school, I think it has to do with leaders. Current SM is old school, but has been trying to find a replacement for some time acceptable to all parties involved: youth and CO. So when the troop got into the situation that it doubled in size with the introduction of new scouts, the "heir apparant" who joined Scouting after NSPs came out in 1989, used that model to set up the troop.SM deferred to him because, the plan was the SM to step down, and he wanted the troop to be run how the replaces (my buddy the heir apparent) I've mentioned the issues with the heir apparant, i.e. CM and work, who hasn't been able to help them as needed. And the two troop guides, I don't really think comprehended what they were suppose to do, nor were able to get the mentoring needed from an ASM. For an active troop, i.e. camping 11 times a year with a lock in the 12th month, we have Scouts because of the NSP. We have Scouts trying to work with the NSP as TG who either do not get it, or are overwhelmed. Plus add into that the adult interference factor. We now have myself and another ASM who old school, having joined scouting prior to NSPs. We either have negative experiences with NSPs ( me) or no experience with NSPs ( the other ASM who is an alum of the troop and has 2 sons in the troop now.) How is it affecting the current patrol situation affecting the Scouts? And this is the important part for me. We have lost a new scouts because of the lack of organization for the NSP. The NSP has NO experience in scouting, and are constantly asking the adults what to do. As I mentioned, the TG, who is my son, as well as the OSP have commented to me and other adults that the NSP is a problem, but the Scouts do not offer solutions. My son is worried that any solution he offers will make it worse, and he doesn't want that to happen. One thing I forgot to mention, the idea of disbanding all three patrols and having the scouts reform them, limiting the number of older Scouts in each patrol and missing up the two regular patrols is hoped to be temporary, and get the Scouts to see how things can be done so that we can reestablish the OSP as a "venture patrol," for lack of a better term, with the troop level position holders, and the second year scouts learnign and gaining insight from the OSP members so that when the troop get the anticipated 2-4 patrols worth of new Scouts in December, they can step up to the plate.

One of the things discussed was doing the basics, i.e. cooking, cleaning, etc as patrols, but activities would be broken out, i.e. All the older Scouts woudl do XYZ Trail or ABC activities at a camp out, while the others would do 123 or 098 stuff.

Goal is to make the entire troop work a little better so that no patrol is waiting for the others to finish doing something. It's to get to get the younger Scouts to listen, learn, and have the older scouts do more. Me personally I see it as a way to get the older Scouts involved and the adults out of the picture.

So we had a meeting of SM and several ASMs last night. One of the topics of discussion was changing the patrols. Thankfully nothing will be done until it's time for unit elections, which will be May. Lots of discussion on this. One idea was doing away with the older scout patrol, assigning them to the the other patrols and making it so that they would get elected PLs, but then when camporees came about, they reform for competition. Thankfully that was dismissed. My comments was that it was to adult oriented, bet their would not be any buy in, we are essentially appointing leaders, and we would be forming "Ringer" patrols for competition. SM agreed with that. One of the leaders tried to point out that an older Scout patrol is a ringer patrol, but had to tel;l him the difference is that the OSP is always together, whereas a ringer patrol only gets together for competition in order to win. My idea of keeping the older scout patrol and integrating the two other patrols into two mixed aged patrols so that they would have a mix of Scouts, was discussed. Challenge was that some of the younger scouts won't listen to the middle aged ones. Adults had some concerns and we went to option 3. All three patrols will be disbanded. Everyone mixed up and arranged so that we are true mixed aged patrols. Anyone can run for PL, so the older Scouts are taking their chances. While the adults are leaning towards that one, it was brought up that the older Scouts need to have some input and some ownership on this change. Plus they may come up with ideas we did not think about. The older Scouts know that things need to change. They even commented on that this weekend at the lock in. Game plan is to let things as they are until April, then have a meeting with them. discuss this with them, and get their thoughts, concerns, and ideas on the matter. Especially since we are estimating anywhere from 14 to 29 new scouts crossing over in December 2016. We need to get a handle on this growth, and handle it NOW!.

That former DE wasn't in East Carolina Council by any chance? When I was a DE, I was "fortunate" in that if i didn't get stuck behind a tractor, It would tale me only an hours one way to get to my all day meeting. I had friends who would take over hours, if they got stuck behind a tractor .

My troop growing up had a saying, I want to attribute to a dad who was colonel in the army but can't remember: " Military surplus. If it's designed to survive combat, it may survive Boy Scouts."

Yes, I remember one of the service crew members I worked with being so proud because he was selected to be part of armed response and was authorized to carry on duty. To me, the British firearm laws did not make sense and seemed crazy since someone could not defend oneself and family. Then I realized you did not have a revolution that permanently overthrew your king. And unfortunately I do not know enough British history to know how the Lord Protector handled firearms to retain his dictatorship. As for being on call, on our side of the pond, some law enforcement will have extra duties that they perform as needed. One example is our Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) members. In my city, they have normal areas to patrol, but can be called out to do a SWAT job. Also sometimes there is not enough personnel, or special situations occur, and folks who are suppose to be off, need to report in. One of the ASMs department is short staffed, and they take turns doing night and weekend duty. Also if something major happens, he may get called in. While at summer camp one year, his department tried to get him to come back from vacation to work. Thankfully the police chief is supportive of Scouting, and he was allowed to stay at camp since if he left, we the troop would need to leave due to lack of adults.

Did you have the "Centennial Edition" by any chance? I was hoping someone who has that version, and the one who has the current version could compare sections. I know I complained that a lot of "basic" information from my day ( I too used the 9th edition) was left out of the Centennial edition. I had to creatye handouts for IOLS.

@@Cambridgeskip, correct me if I'm wrong, but I beleive the Scout Association in the UK turned their supply stores more into outfitters. I remember the one I went too didn't look like a BSA scout shop on the first floor at all. More like REI or Gander Mountain. It was when you got to the wall at the end of the first floor, where the stairs were at, and saw all the Scout patches from all over the world, that you realized it was a Scout Shop. Always wished BSA would go more that route.

"Ever wonder if the REI associate REALLY has used every backpack? Or are they just pushing what the back office tells them to? There's your answer." I would hope they would be honest. I know from my supply division days, if I didn't use it, I would not recommend it. If a friend of mine used a product, I would state what they thought to my customers. If I didn't like a product I would discourage someone from buying it. Badge Bond comes immediately to mind. Did I get in trouble a time or two. Yes. But as Scout is TRUSTWORTHY. Besides, the boss left me alone when, after spending 30-45 minutes on how to select gear for a new Scout's parent, and even advising to shop around, the parent left, and 20 minutes later showed up with son in tow. We outfitted him with gear he would use and grow into. Nice sale for the store, and we got a new Scout outfitted for adventure.

ROTFL And I don't know how to do the pound sterling symbol. And i though using # people would think weight. I love me some ALPS. But I've been on a USGI surplus kick of late as that is way cheaper, even with the hiker direct program.

You are a law enforcement officer and you are on call.

ALPS Mountaineer has a discount program via hikerdirect.com . Don't know how much the shipping would be, but the MYSTIQUE 2 is $113.06 which is approx. 86 pounds.

WWWWEEEEELLLLL, there was a place in Los Angeles that had authentic Cajun food. Then again they did have my brother as the chef.

Read the article. I've met some of the folks on the JPSO SWAT team. Glad Griffin is a SGT. now as he was really cool. Knew his stuff and one heck of a sniper.

Back in the day, my troop used semaphore flags as patrol flags. Two of the three flags when I joined were the original 2 patrols in the troop, with the Leadership Corps flag coming in a few years after the troop was formed. When we added a 3rd patrol, we initially were given a name, and that patrol's flag came out of retirement. After about 2 months, we decided to change our name. That meant that the current patrol flag would be retired, all the ribbons would go with that flag, etc. We had to make a new flag. Only "requirement" we had was that we needed to have a troop patch somewhere on the flag. Instead of red and white material, we decided to use red and blue. Not only to be different, but also that was what I could find for free.

How about jacshirt (red or green), switchbacks, boots, and expedition hat or smokey bear?

In regards to the professional uniform and commissioners: (in best whiney Darth Vader voice in SWRotS voice) NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously though, I've found that with some folks, wearing the field uniform helps new leaders get comfortable with some of the advice and help we give. And for some new leaders, they may not know what all the knots mean, but they do understand I've been there, done that, and have probably encountered the issues they are dealing with. And yes, there are some who, no matter how you try and help them, they will ignore you, tell you and the Scouting program needs to change with the times, etc.

Try having the retired CSE as a UC in your district. Yep Brock is now a UC somewhere in my council.

That's a new one for me, but I can believe Sheriff Harry Lee of Jefferson Parish would do that, and I can see where some would complain. He was the one pushing for unlimited hunting of them on the banks of the various canals for a small yearly fee, I think it was $5 to cover the license. PETA went ape over the matter when I lived there. Trust me the nutria were a major problem. You could see large groups of them in the canals about 1/4 of a mile from my house. And I lived in a well developed suburb of New Orleans.

OUTSTANDING! I left New Orleans in 1997 before the program came about.

One of our former leaders was on call 24/7. He was head of the SWAT team. He always had his gear on him or in his vehicle. Current ASM who conceal carries does so when on duty/call.