Eagle94-A1

THEY. STILL. DO. NOT. GET. IT! After the meeting on Saturday where we went over the entire advancement process, i.e. how meetings and activities are not meant to earn awards but work on skills, etc, as well as how the PLC plans the program not the adults, they still don't get it. We had our Christmas party last night, and all the adults ended up together and talking. Some of the discussion was talking about trips done in the past, and how we hope the PLC plans some cool trips this year. Two of the dads started talking about places they've been to on their own, and how they talked with officials at these places so that the Scouts can earn XYZ MBs that weekend. They started going on and on about it. Since it was a Christmas party, I didn't say a word. But man I was tempted to say it's about the knowledge, skills, and abilities, not the badges. SM tactfully stated it's something for the PLC to consider. At one point the topic became a possible AT trip this summer. OK PLC has not planned anything yet for 2018, but there has been enough talk about it that the adults are looking into it to give the Scouts some options: time of year, section, etc. Only thing set is one of the prep trips, the one we had to cancel 2 hours before kick off. And we don't have a date for that yet. Mom pipes in about how that would be great for her Tenderfoot son to do since he needs a 5 mile hike with map and compass to earn Second Class. Now this is the Scout whose Mom a) refuses to let him camp without her, b) has camped with the troop only once, besides summer camp (and on the camp out he snuck into Mom's tent the first nite), and c) has told mom he is not interested in Boy Scouts. Now the Scouter who heads up these has 2 requirements in order for the Scouts to go: #1 Must be First Class or higher and #2 Must go on at least 1 prep trip prior to the AT trek OR been on a previous AT trek. For adults to go on the trek, they must have gone on the prep trips, or a previous, AT trek. He mentioned this to her, and she was questioning this policy since it isn't BSA's but his. He mentioned how it's a safety factor. If a Scout or Scouter cannot pull his share , he jeopardizes the entire crew. Then goes on about how the one time he allowed an exception, for an adult with previous backpacking experience as a youth. However the adults was not ready for the trek, and it caused issues that almost turned into a survival situation. Adult got dehydrated and collapsed. His group of Scouts took care of him until the trek leader could get to him. Thankfully nothing serious, water and rest took care of it. I then mentioned that one troop I know of also puts an age limit on HA trips:13. Basically mimicking the HA bases policy. Hopefully that will lose mom's interest. I know the trek leader doesn't want to put an age on it. The first AT trek he did with the troop, was a trek he did with his then 9 year old son. Son would have been 12 when the first trek was done, and with a 13 year old rule, son would have not went. So dad would not have got the trek going. Why does everything have to be about advancement?

AAAAHHHHHH, the CC is also COR. That changes things a bit. As David CO points out, the COR has the ability to decide who the Scouters in a unit are. Only person who can override the COR is the IH, and I've only seen that happen once. So in theory the CC/COR could fire you for not following his directives. And the CC/COR is doing his job in promoting the CO's troop. To expect anything less, is them not doing their job. Plus the CC/COR wants to keep the troop alive, so they need fresh blood. So it is understandable. The problem I have is not so much forcing the den to look only at one troop, but WHAT HAPPENED TO THE TROOP THAT IT IS ABOUT TO DIE? ( caps for emphasis, this is a major concern.) Normally the COR covers all units at a CO: Pack, Troop, Ship, and Crew. If problems arise between troop and pack, he is responsible for working them out. If the pack has concerns about the troop, the COR is suppose to mediate and reconcile them. So why has this not been done until now? I think there is a back story and we are missing it.

One things to remember about @David CO, he is a COR who is actually doing his job. I bet if there are problems between the pack and troop, he's doing his job and getting them ironed out. Sadly most of us are dealing with COs who are paper only. They provide us the minimum, meeting room and storage, and have a hands off approach. I know my pack's CO has no interest in Scouting. We've invited IH, COR, CC, etc to Blue and Golds, Cross Overs, etc and never attended. The troop at the CO scheduled an Eagle COH three months in advance with the church to make sure they could have the facilities, and it was approved. The a week before the Eagle COH, they said the troop need to cancel the COH b/c they needed the facility for something else. Luckily the troop that host the OA, opened up their facilities with open arms

The CC is wrong for all the reasons above. It is the Scout's decision to join the troop of his choice. That said, "Be Prepared" to be called a "traitor," "thief," "underhanded," and a hatred to be established. Even if you try and help the troop out, you will be blamed for their low numbers. We couldn't have joined the troop my pack's CO has because they meet on Tuesdays, which at the time was a very bad night for us. Plus the troop took a 180 degree turn around from Boy Led to Adult led, to the point where PLs and SPL were appointed by the SM. Despite my apprehension, I still wanted my son and his den to visit and camp with that troop. I had to beg the troop to allow the Webelos to camp with them. Only way I got them to let the den camp was when I told them I would ask another troop to camp with. Long story short, camp out was a disaster, and son refused to join them. He and a friend eventually crossed over to the troop we are with. Within 10 months, 2 of his den mates who joined the CO's troop quit and two transferred to my son's troop. I was blamed for stealing his Scouts. That troop did nothing with the pack for 2 years, and they shrank and shrank. They finally started working with the pack, and got 3 Scouts. But I am the reason they are now down to 4 active Scouts.

WOW, If you were not in Tampa, I'd say you were in my troop. The parent who brought up the tent issue has $$$$$. He also "persuaded" the PLC to switch their camp out to a fundraiser. All said and done, since the troop provided 95% of the manpower ( and the 5% are coming to us tonite) , we got a larger share of the profits than we were entitled to by ticket sales. BUT in order to get it, he made made so that the money is limited to what he wants to troop to get: equipment. It's not enough to outfit the entire troop in new tents. He wants to make a donation to get additional tents. What he fails to realize is that if the youth do not have a vested interest in what they get, i.e THEY ARE THE ONES DECIDING WHAT TO GET, they will not take the care it needs to keep it. EXTREMELY TRUE!!!!!! One of the Eagles wants the troop to replicate his troop growing up. I knew his SM, and the SM was a micromanager. Adults interfered alot. And his style is reflective. I'm on the opposote end. Very youth led. SM had high expectations, worked through the PLC, and didn't get invovled too much with the minutia. Outside of PLC duties and SMCs, I can count on one hand the number of times he intervened in something. And I really deserved the chat I got too.

In my experience, it's the Scouts are quicker on the noticing problems and initiating first aid, too. As for tents, personal tents are OK, but not hammocks. Only adults can hammock. Middle son and his buddy are nto happy about that since buddy has been hammocking since Cubs, and he converted my son to the Dark Side." Middle son has only used his hammock 2 times since getting it.

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, it does indeed help. I am still seeing things on the thread in the lens of this situation. Bear with me.

Yep. First time I saw snow, I was 25. I enjoyed the 3 inched of overnight snow for about 5 minutes. back inside for me.

Isn't that what the SMC is for, to find out what is going on with the Scout? Both Scouts in question have had 2 SMCs to date. That has not been brought to the SM's attention. As for having a conversation about how hovering actually hurts their Scouts, we have had it multiple times.

I think this is the major problem with separating Webelos into 2 groups: People lose focus of thepurpose of Webelos : WE'll BE LOyal Scouts. Yes it's mentioned, but it is not focused in the literature nor more importantly the training. While I did the old 5th grade Webelos only program, If the current 18-24 month program implements that transition FROM THE BEGINNING ( emphasis) none of the Scouts I've known are not fully ready to be completely integrated into existing patrols.. As for preworking requirements as Webelos., they should have. If you look at Scout Rank and the Adventures a lot of the work SHOULD be done and the Scout should be abel to move up fast. Scout Rank: Arrow of Light Adventure: Scouting Adventure Arrow of Light Adventure: Outdoorsman ( Camper in Handbook) AOL Badge Requirement A. Repeat from memory the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan. In your own words, explain their meaning. a. Repeat from memory the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan. In your own words, explain their meanings to your den leader, parent, or guardian. B. Explain what Scout spirit is. Describe some ways you have shown Scout spirit by practicing the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan. b. Explain what Scout spirit is. Describe for your den leader, parent, or guardian some ways you have shown Scout spirit by conducting yourself according to the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan. C. Demonstrate the Boy Scout sign, salute, and handshake. Explain when they should be used. c. Give the Boy Scout sign, salute, and handshake. Explain when to use each. D. Describe the First Class Scout badge and tell what each part stands for. Explain the significance of the First Class Scout badge. d. Describe the First Class Scout badge, and tell what each part stands for. Explain the significance of the First Class Scout badge. E. Repeat from memory the Outdoor Code. In your own words, explain what the Outdoor Code means to you. Option A , 5 OR Option B, 4 Recite the Outdoor Code and the Leave No Trace Principles for Kids from memory. Talk about how you can demonstrate them while you are working on your Arrow of Light. After one outing, list the things you did to follow the Outdoor Code and Leave No Trace. F. Repeat from memory the Pledge of Allegiance. In your own words, explain its meaning. e. Repeat from memory the Pledge of Allegiance. In your own words, explain its meaning 2. After attending at least one Boy Scout troop meeting, do the following: 2. Visit a Boy Scout troop meeting with your parent or guardian and, if possible, with your den members and leaders. After the meeting, do the following: Describe how the Scouts in the troop provide its leadership. Describe how the Scouts in the troop provide its leadership. Describe the four steps of Boy Scout advancement. Describe the four steps of Boy Scout advancement. Describe what the Boy Scout ranks are and how they are earned. Describe ranks in Boy Scouting and how they are earned. Describe what merit badges are and how they are earned. Describe what merit badges are and how they are earned 3a Explain the patrol method. Describe the types of patrols that are used in your troop 3. Practice the patrol method in your den for one month by doing the following: Explain the patrol method. Describe the types of patrols that might be part of a Boy Scout troop 3b. Become familiar with your patrol name, emblem, flag, and yell. Explain how these items create patrol spirit. 3c Develop a patrol name and emblem (if your den does not already have one), as well as a patrol flag and yell. Explain how a patrol name, emblem, flag, and yell create patrol spirit. 4a. Show how to tie a square knot, two half-hitches, and a taut-line hitch. Explain how each knot is used. 5. Do the Following: a. Show how to tie a square knot, two half-hitches, and a taut-line hitch. Explain how each knot is used. b. Show the proper care of a rope by learning how to whip and fuse the ends of different kinds of rope. b. Show the proper care of a rope by learning how to whip and fuse the ends of different kinds of rope. 5. Demonstrate your knowledge of pocketknife safety. 6. Demonstrate your knowledge of the pocketknife safety rules and the pocketknife pledge. If you have not already done so, earn your Whittling Chip card. 6. With your parent or guardian, complete the exercises in the pamphlet "How to Protect Your Children from Child Abuse: A Parents Guide" and earn the Cyber Chip Award for your grade. 1 5. Earn the Cyber Chip award for your age. (The Cyber Chip portion of this requirement may be waived by your parent or guardian if you do not have access to the internet.) Can you see why some of us "Old Guard" have an expectation of Crossed Over Cub Scouts being able to jump right in? They should have been prepared already. Heck I remember earning AOL automatically earned a new Scout to wear the Scout Badge ( wasn't a rank back then), and waived the 2 month time requirement between Scout and Tenderfoot. I hate to say it, but reflecting on this I'm glad we no longer allow automatic Scout with AOL because we have had challenges with new Scouts not knowing all this stuff despite earning the AOL. Trust me, we allow for medical conditions. We have had Scouts with severe ADD, autism, and other medical conditions. Currently we have 1 Scout who MUST sleep with dad due to his documented medical condition. And we are not talking a note from the pediatrician, we are talking note from specialist who conducted multiple tests. As for the autistic Scout, I am so very glad Dad is there to help. Information seeking is one thing. While I would counsel that you should not worry and let your son work at his own pace, yes I would answer questions. But when I talk about playing 2 ASMs against the SM, I am talking about Mom not taking the SM's " let me get back with you so I can find one available" to asking, then cajoling, then demanding from us a name for a MBC who could work with her son. Even when told, " Mr. X is the only MBC we know of, and we are not sending anyone to him due to his health ( this was a month or two before he "went home") she then tried to get one of us to sign off on the MB simply son is in a club that works on that topic. And that is the problem with a lot of new parents with little to no Scouting experience. They think the entire goal of Scouts is to "Get Eagle." Heck even folks who should know better have that ida. My uncle pressured both my cousin and I to get Eagle at 13, so we would be finished and move on to other things. Yes, my cousin got Eagle at 13 and quit.While I was Life at 13 and on my way to Eagle at 14, I had some awesome opportunities my cousin never had, or didn't have until he was an adult, and a Scouter in his son's troop. I admit I and other are angry. Wouldn't you be if someone insulted your sons and yourself. And yes I am not working with this Scout and his family directly. part of it is they don't camp that much. Part of it is that another ASM is assigned to that patrol. And even those two ASMs are ticked off. They have threatened to tansfer to another troop. We told them they need to do what is in the best interest of their Scout. At the moment they are still with us. Privately we think we really do not want to inflict them on anyone else. Actually, it depends upon which federal law you read. Under one law, a child is anyone under 26 years of age. Bu the question is this, do you treat a 8 the same as a 11 year old, the same as a 14 year old the same as a 17 year old? The answer is no you do not. The comments by the dad insinuated the Scouts, as a whole irregardless of their age. In my experience, some of the 14 year old Scouts are more mature, more safety conscious, and more capable of being leaders than some college graduates. But then again that college grad is also considered a "child" under federal law. In all honesty, the Scouts in question have not expressed any interest in being in Scouts since they crossed over. Heck I'd go do far as the first outdoor activity they did with the troop. And that is not just my impression, but also other adults and Scouts in their patrol and in the troop. As for exciting activities and program, well one of the helicopter dad's, who is a certified wilderness survival instructor with one of the outdoor schools, was asked to do a skills instruction. His program was so basic, to the point that what he taught the first nite is covered in teh Castaway AB, that the SPL asked last year's instructor to come back and finish the remaining classes. But the damage was done, as few of the older Scouts attended that camp out. The parents wanted a MB type set of meetings, and the old SPL gave in when he taught them. The meetings were dry, boring, and still didn't meet all the requirements. He even made the comment, this is what your parents asked for, see why we don't focus on MBs." Our Annual Planning Conference is in the next 3 weeks. patrols had their meetings to come up with ideas. Will be interesting what they come up with. All the best. But remember, even if your sons do not get Eagle, they will have learned valuable life skills. That is what is importan.t That's the thing, up until this meeting no safety questions or concerns have been raised by anyone. It's all been advancement oriented. This happened out of the blue. And the manner and body language he used reinforced the negativity of the comments he made, as if we do not care at all. And as I stated, he is a registered Cub Scout leader and should know better. It was clearly implied that he does not trust any of the Scouts to do the right thing, and that he expects the adults to hover over all of the Scouts like he and his wife does. As @numbersnerd stated "Children' will only grow up as quickly as adults let them. Limit those opportunities and it stunts that growth. " And I am not about to let anyone stunt my Scouts' growth.

With the tone and body language he was using, he insulted every single Scout by calling them "children." As I stated in another post, THEY ARE MY SCOUTS (emphasis) Just as I am sure you get quite ticked off and defensive of your sons when others insult them, YOU INSULT MY SCOUTS AND YOU HAVE AN ISSUE WITH ME ( again emphasis). Further, as a registered Cub leader, he should know about all the safety guidelines and policies that BSA has implemented. Since his wife went to summer camp, he should know that we had Scouters renewing their certifications so we can do things safely, instead of hovering over Scouts at classes like his wife did with her son. The 18 to 24 month long Webelos Program is suppose to the the transition from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. I've worked with 2 Webelos dens, and both implemented that transition. Those parents when they move up get it. No problems. But through observation and talking to a freind who is with the pack these parents came from, the pack treats Webelos as Cub Scouts, and has the habit of pencil whipping requirements. We got three Cubs crossing over tomorrow. I've only seen 1 visit us at a meeting. Same one also went camping with us. So the question is How did they earn AOL without the visits and camp out/ outdoor activity? To me that is an identifiable problem. Again their is suppose to be an 18 to 24 month long transition period called Webelos. Again the two Webelos dens I worked with, their members have had no problems integrating with the troop. 3rd patrol from that pack had a member with issues because he had patrol mates in his NSP that came from packs that did not implement such a program. He was so frustrated b/c Scouting was not what he was promised and almost quit. Regarding advancement, that is now part of the AOL's Scouting Adventure, specifically 2. Visit a Boy Scout troop meeting with your parent or guardian and, if possible, with your den members and leaders. After the meeting, do the following: Describe how the Scouts in the troop provide its leadership. Describe the four steps of Boy Scout advancement. Describe ranks in Boy Scouting and how they are earned. Describe what merit badges are and how they are earned. Upon reflection, I do not think the helicopter parents sons ever did the troop visit either. Maybe that is the problem, the pencil whipping? Yes, we have gone over things over and over and over and over. And as I stated, they are not listening. It almost as if they do not care how things are suppose to be, how they are hurting the other Scouts, nor even listening to their own sons. THEY WANT EAGLE SCOUTS. (emphasis) An aside, the two sets of helicopter have both mentioned at various times how their sons are either "not interested" or "losing interest fast." Why are they forcing their sons to do something they are not interested in? No, there is nothing wrong. I earned several MBs before First Class, in addition to the required First Aid MB at the time. Both my sons have MBs they earned before First Class. But instead of having them focus on the basics, which they need to go camping and do activities, it's as if they are pushing their sons to do MBs. If the family is willing to learn, I am OK with being patient. But when a family is unwilling to be patient themselves That's a problem. When a family ignores multiple conversations and meeting and wants things done their way. I have a problem. When a family attempts to play 2 ASMs against the SM to get what they want, I have a problem. When a family is jealous about one Scout advancing faster than their son and complains, I have a problem. Further when the Scout shows no interest in the program, refuses to do his share of the work, and causes problems, for is patrol mates to the point that adults are having to intervene all the time, then YES I do wish that scout would quit. I had a problem Scout in my patrol briefly, and it almost destroyed the patrol. We had such a Scout in the troop's NSP, and he is oneof the reasons why we do not use NSPs. That's what talking to your son about his trips is suppose to be about. Heck I am at most camp outs, by I let my sons alone for th most part. It's on the ride home that I get the details. More later.

Mom is doing the dragging. Kid is more interested in Pokemon Go. They were some of the biggest complainers about advancement, wanting to know why we discourage Merit Badge Universities (because they give away MBs) to why we some Scouts get so many at one time and not their son ( because they may have started work on a 3, 6,9, 18,.48 months previously and finally completed it) to why don't we recommend MBs before First Class ( so they can focus on the basic Scouting skills), to why can't we sign off on advancement ( this is not Cub Scouts, we want not only qualified people signing off, but we also want no appearance of favoritism). I am hoping the parents realize he has no interest.

To true. 90% of the problems we have in my troop are adult related. Good news is that my sons don't see the problems and want to stay. But they know I got the Scouts interest.

I think what started the 'pencil whipping' was Operation First Class that started in 1989. That was when the push for First Class in a year came about.

Well, today was the day we had the parent's meeting. Here is the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. The Good: We now have a committee that will do the work. We have a mix of old and new parents involved. part of the hope is that by given everyone a job, they won't bug the Scouts. Fingers are crossed. The Bad: Some issues, i.e. problems with families, needing to use more of the Patrol method, etc were glossed over. Mostly due to the.... The Ugly: Several uglies to be exact. One was concerning advancement. How advancement is done has been gone over 2 or more times, depending upon the new parent, was gone over again, and some of them still don't get it. They expect their Scouts to earn something EVERY meeting and camp out. One of my friends posted a head banging on the wall gif. Very frustrating. But worse, was the comment that insulted me and several other Scouters. The dad of the Scout who is not allowed to camp unless mom camps too, a dad who has never been on a single camp out with us ever, questioned the safety of his son on trips since we are not essentially hovering over the Scouts. THAT. TICKED.ME OFF. Especially since he is a registered Cub Scout leader, and supposedly knows about the G2SS, etc. Apparently he wants us hovering over the Scouts all the time since "they are just children." I admit the "just children" comment ticked me off to no end. As an 11 year old "child," I had to do basic first aid until EMTs arrived and brought someone to the ER. When I got hypothermia in Canada, it was a 15 year old "child" who recognized I had hypothermia and started treatment. It was the 13 to 17 year old "children" in my patrol who continued treating me. And when I was injured returning from a water rescue, it was a 15 year old "child" who recognized that I was not OK, and was in shock and that the "shoulder looks funny." We follow the guidelines. We have multiple people with certifications and training, just in case. I was involved in a water rescue of a Scout that resulted in me spending 4 weeks in a sling waiting to have surgery .That surgery left a 1" and a 5.5" scars as a reminder of that day. Then I spent another 7.5 weeks in an arm immobilizer so my shoulder could heal. Then I did another 6 months doing rehab so I could get some of my mobility and strength back.. I still do not have 100% mobility, and suffer pain when it gets cold or rains. But I am not concerned about safety because I am not hovering over their scout all the time? We had another Scouter willing to spend over $300 and a weekend to get the needed WFA certification to take the guys on the AT. He also purchased a PLB and WFA kit supplies, but we are not concerned about safety? We have 4 first aid kits, plus several of us carry our own kits, but we are not concerned about safety? That ticked several of us off. And one Scouter is very concerned. His impression of the conversation is that if anything happens to that guy's son, he'll be suing. He is now considering taking out personal liability insurance because of this one parent. One thing I was heard part of the conversation dealt with equipment. #1 priority is new stoves. The ones we have are 30+ years old, and are unreliable. We are down to one that works most of the time, and adults have been lending personal stoves to the patrols to cook on. The Scouts also want some other equipment. including tents. Some of the tents are damaged and not usable, and others missing pieces due to neglect But they can be cannibalized and are still viable. But these tents are not the best, and the troop is looking into phasing in new backpacking tents, one patrol at a time. I wasn't there for the rest of the conversation, but apparently this ticked off the dad above. He wanted to know why his son had to deal with old tents that someone else damaged and not use a new tent. Do not know how that went. We got another meeting next month set up. I'm taking this a month at a time.

Considering some of my Scouts have kids who are Scouts themselves, I feel that remark. One of my Eagles had his son's troop within 20 miles of my troop on the AT. They started a few days before my troop started, but part of their trek was our trek.

Guide to Advancement section 5.0.4.0 Covers "Youth From Other Countries," but considering she is a US citizen, I do not think it will apply. BUT if BSA decides to allow her credit for any advancement up to Life, then that is their loophole.

I do not consider myself "old guard" since I have sons in the troop. Now I do consider myself "Old School" since I believe BP was the greatest SM ever, and Green Bar Bill the greatest SPL, but that is a different story. All joking aside, I know it is hard to give up control of something you that you still have skin in the game. Especially when you invested so much blood, sweat, tears, and treasure on. When my middle son became a Tiger, and I had to be his partner at day camp, I gave up being the day camp program director. Which as some of you long timers know, I was doign that job AND the CD's job at the time. Handing over reigns to day camp was hard. I spent two years as PD, and more than doubled the attendance over that time. People were having a great time. I wanted that to continue. But the new PD had his own ideas. Despite my warnings about the CD, he ignored them, and there were challenges. Instead of listening to how and why I got things done, he did his own thing. That was hard, especially since some of the things I had experienced and knew would not work. Thankfully I got into a new hobby, and got out of his hair. But camp suffered that year. It was very hard dealing with that, especially since two of my sons were affected. I was asked to come back, and I did for one year. We fixed a lot of the issues, but we took a hit that year in attendance. Youngest became a Tiger and I had to step down again. The following year was the worse year ever at camp. We were so short staffed, that I spent more time running ranges than I did with my Tiger. The new CD and my replacement PD did not work well together, and camp suffered greatly. The following year there was no day camp in my district. So I can see why some are afraid to let go. Just like the youth, adults need to " Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" the new folks. BUT I recommend the new folks listen to the old guard sinc ethey have "been there, done that."

The lodge I grew up in has had mixed relations with the local tribe, despite having members in the lodge. At one time, we had excellent relations, then a group of yahoos got involved int he lodge. I do not know the full story, but the local tribe asked us to disband the dance team, which we did. While the yahoos did their own thing still, eventually AIA died. Then we got some youth who were really interested in AIA. They reestablished the relationship, helps when one of your fellow Arrowman is kin to the principle chief , and we got it back up and running with their blessing. And we have helped each other out when I was down there. Current lodge has an extremely amiable relationship with local tribes. I discovered that one of the local drums was formed by members of the lodge at the primary Scout camp years ago. Several of our AIA folks are on that drum, and one or two others. One of our Arrowman was head male dancer at one of the local powwows.

I think you are missing my point: the double standard. While you can have two females working with an all male den, you MUST have a female working with an all girl den. In my experience as a DL, it was the fathers who stayed around and helped out. Occasionally mothers were there and helped. But for the most part the mothers would always gravitate to committee roles. While I know first hand that 2 adults, and in some cases even more, are needed to work with dens, under BSA's new rules, YOU MUST HAVE AT LEAST ONE FEMALE TO WORK WITH THE GIRLS BUT YOU DO NOT NEED ONE MALE TO WORK WITH THE BOYS! ( caps for emphasis) So you cannot have a bunch of dads working with their daughters. But a bunch of moms can work with their sons. BSA needs to either keep the current policy, or change it to a fairer one.

Correct. Or keep it as it is currently which is X=Male Y=Female CS= Cub Scout of either gender Den Leaders Single Gender Den XX or YY or XY CS, CS, CS, CS

" REALLY?"

Well if we don't want men alone with girls, why allow women to be alone with boys? As I see it, the girls are not in the program yet, but their is already a double standard in how we treat them.

Notice that a FEMALE leader is required for the girls, but a male leader is not required for the boys. Irony for me is that the one person I know a female Scouter who had their membership revoked.

One of the challenges is that a lot of folks do not know how the OA actually helped the 500+ different Native American cultures in North America. I know Arrowman, who have done research for local, state recognized to help get them federal recognition. I know an Arrowmen who have done research to help reintroduce lost arts. And I can go on and on.