SeattlePioneer

I've never been a part of a Scout Troop that really operated by the book. The three troops I have worked with have all had significant compromises built into them. Twenty odd years ago, I was AS for a year, then SM for five years or so. I took the training offered through Wood Badge, and ran a pretty decent program. But there were still important compromises. The biggest was the inability to recruit new Scouts. I got no help from the Troop Committee or boys, and my own efforts were ineffective. The Troop Committee (parents) left as much as they could to me, and I became overloaded and overwhelmed. When I eventually dropped out as a leader, the Troop failed after a fifty plus year run. Very sad. A year or so ago, I rejoined Scouting with a struggling Troop. It had some good and experienced leaders, and one in particular who left a lot to be desired, to the point of being dangerous, despite his endless self confidence. I left because I was uncomfortable with the program, and this troop is about ready to fail after fifty years or so of existance. I asked the DE to refer me to another troop that was struggling to exist. This troop has about ten boys, six or so of whom regularly attend outings and meetings. My preferred area of responsibility in this troop has been to work on recruiting and FOS, although I've been drawn fairly heavily into program related activities. My AIM has been to push the existing adult leaders towards (1) having a consistantly excellent troop program and (2) developing a troop committee that functions as it should. Unfortunately, the Scoutmaster isn't very capable of planning things, and the SPL can't plan a good program on his own. Too often, the program has been poor, which has led several Scouts to leave the troop or quit attending. For that reason, I was drawn into planning and executing a good program for a while, hoping to show the adult leaders how things could be done. They liked the results, but their reaction was to try to saddle me with being SM, which I refused to do. We just had the first PL meeting since one I held several months ago. A decent effort has been made to plan a program for the summer, so perhaps that vital function is at last being performed. That leaves me with some time and a decent program to use to try to recruit some new Scouts. I have 15 or so names and addresses of new 6th graders, and will be visiting their homes to invite them to a horseback riding outing scheduled for August, for example. This Troop has a core of parents who care about the program and are willing to do quite a bit to support it. They have also been willing to accept a good many of my suggestions, or give them a try in any case. We are now having regular outings every month, often more than one. The Scouts are coming along, discovering that they can take pride and enjoy the new skills they are learning. Add some new boys, and keep the ones we have, and the Troop has a chance of being succesful and more stable. While it's been on the edge of failure several times, this Troop has a chance to recover. The keys to that recovery will be (1) an excellent program to attract and retain boys and parents and (2) a Troop Committee that identifies the functions it must perform and does so effectively. I spent a lot of time and effort to identify these problems. The adult leader weren't able to figure out how to deal with them on their own. The SM has complained bitterly that he didn't understand why boys were leaving ---he thought the program was fine, when it wasn't. Efforts by other parents to improve the program were sporadic, and not especially effective (merit badge classes, for example). The Troop Committee Chair had carved out his own idea of what he was willing to do, such as managing the finances of the Troop. But he opposed (and still opposes) having monthly Committee meetings since he considers them a waste of time, when they are an opportunity for the involved adults to identify problems and decide on ways to solve them. I've worked a lot on recruiting, with little to show for it so far. But results will come, but only because of persistant effort despite repeated disappointments. So that's my analysis of how a failing troop might have a chance to turn itself around. While the SM doesn't have the natural talent for leadership and planning that he should have, he's beginning to take responsibility for Doing His Best in program planning, which is a big improvement over being unaware of the problems. The other adult leaders are putting a shoulder to the wheel to improve the program. That frees me up to work on recruiting and to give me attractive features to sell to potential Scouts, and to keep the Scouts we have. Based on my experience, I'd say that the key to saving a failing program is to correctly identify the problems and have people who are willing to correct those problems and work hard to correct those problems. Lots of people wont recognize the problems that confront them. Others may be unwilling to try new things to correct problems. Still other units may lack sufficient number of people willing to work hard to solve problems. A good Unit Commissioner ought to be in a position to help diagnose unit problems and point leaders in the right direction. But too often, there are no Unit Commissioners or they aren't doing the job or unit leaders aren't willing to follow their advice. Anyway, that's my update from the unit level trenches. Seattle Pioneer

Actually, they pooled their limited knowledge. Sorry 'bout that. Seattle Pioneer

Sorry, BW, but that analysis makes no sense at all in my view. Comparing patrols to states "with a trusted Presidential adviser" fails to note that states don't have Presidential advisers, for example. You are making comparisons to things that really don't compare. Scouting is designed to carry out the purposes of Scouting. Any resemblance to Federal and State governments is coincidental and probably imaginary. Still, Troops have to make decisions, and may include political methods of various kinds in making decisions about things to do. But it's best to look at Scout troops as Scout Troops, rather than comparing them to government organizations they have little in common with. Seattle Pioneer

Personally, I'm not much on nature study. But it's a part of Scouting, and I aim to give it an appropriate nod. The Commmittee Chair has liked to lead a hike on outings that included identifying plants. Having done that several times, I figured it was time to give the Scouts a chance to teach each other on our bicycle camping trip last weekend. So while checking out the route we would use, I scoped out the trail in a park we would be passing. On the day of the trip, I sent the Scouts up the trail on their own, with a suggestion that they (1) learn to identify stinging nettles in a hurry (2) figure out how English Ivy can attack, injure and overwhelm local plant varieties and (3) identify as many other local varieties of vegetation as they could. When they came back after about twenty minutes, they all had (1) down pat, had at least a sketchy idea of (2) and had polled their limited knoledge on (3). I'd say it was a good exercise. Seattle Pioneer

Sorry Juris, I don't agree with you that a background in Scouting is necessary to being a leader. I had none. I learned my outdoors skills by doing a few thousand miles of backpacking and climbing, snowshoeing cross country skiing and a good deal of bicycle touring and bicycle camping. I served a year as an AS and took the regular Scoutmaster training before becoming a Scoutmaster for five years or so, completing Woodbadge along the way. I also don't think that a Scoutmaster should select the Troop Commmittee Chair. That leads to excessive influence by the Scoutmaster, who needs to be accountable to the Troop Committee, not the other way around. Parents who are trained in the methods of Scouting and good people in general should be assets on outdoor activities, and more adult leadership may help create a richer program if properly supervised and directed. I think we can agree that parents or adults can be a handicap rather than an asset on trips. I don't recall BSA ever making a claim that anyone can be trained to be a good Scout leader. Instead, I see constant emphasis that invitations to be a Scout leader should be offered to only people of exceptional personal character. Sorry, I find myself disagreeing with most of your post. Seattle Pioneer

You are certainly welcome to apply your own standards to your own organization, juris. Personally, the kind of violation described wouldn't prevent me from accepting someone as a Scout leader by itself. I would consider the person as a whole. An otherwise good person with such a misdemeanor violation might make a good Scout leader, in my opinion. Seattle Pioneer

I suggest that a decent acquaitance with Scout Skills will do a lot more to protect backcountry travelers than a trailerful of electronic gadgets. Frankly, the only time I'd really have much real need for a GPS receiver is while navigating my boat through a fog bank or traveling in whiteout conditions on a glacier. 98% of the time a map is all you need, and the other 2% of the time a compass is useful. An insignificant part of the time a GPS receiver would be really helpful. In the two helecopter evacuations I've assisted with in a small way, both got people out to solicit help fairly rapidly. Really time critical evacuations are relatively rare. The best way to avoid problems is to be well trained and reasonably equipped. More efficient ways to solicit help don't seem important to me, and would probablky encourage more poorly trained and equipped parties to try things they shouldn't do. Seattle Pioneer

A month or so ago there was a thread in which some people suggested that things like flashlights and knives could be shared between participants on backpacking trips. We didn't get as far as the possibility of sharing such things as a map and compass. But this kind of lost Scout situation illustrates to my satisfaction why everyone needs to carry safety equipment such as a knife, flashlight, map, compass, extra food, extra clothing, matches and the rest of the ten essentials ---and more. Seattle Pioneer

Mmmmm. Rainbow-Push. Does ANOTHER one of Jessie Jackson's relatives need payoffs in order to make their protests go away again? In my district, a real effort has been made to attract hispanic youths and parents with the Soccer and Scouting Cub Scout Program. This has produced a lot of real bodies I have seen with my own eyes. But high rates of immigrant families seems to produce very poor numbers for traditional Scouting around here. Since my grandparents were Polish, I've toyed with the idea of visiting the Polish cultural/fraternal organization they helped establish almost 100 years ago and see if there is an interest in establishing a Scout program through that group. Giving the organization and parents control over a program directed at their children just might produce interest. A Scout Leader in a traditional Scouting unit was bitterly complaining to me that he needed immigrant parents and boys in his program to make it work. I suggested to him that the Soccer and Scouting hispanics were probably equally disappointed to be unable to attract whites to their program ----perhaps he should be a "crossover" and join their program. Lot's of good questions, but no compelling answers. Seattle Pioneer

Good questions, Prairie Scouter. The problem of competing activities seems to be bifurcated by income class, from what I see. In low income areas, I see other organizations, including schools, conducting camping activities and enrichment activities for children. Activities like baseball go on all summer often enough, as a means of keeping children (and perhaps parents) occupied. That tends to preempt the activities of Scouting, especially if you don't know much about Scouting. At the middle class income levels and above, parents are often paying big bucks for high quality experiences for their children ---music lessons, science camps, children's theater and so on. Parents can keep their children so busy that fitting in Scouts may be difficult to do, if it's desired at all. Seattle Pioneer

Hello kittle, I was just involved in a Pack Overnight camping trip June 4th and 5th. It was a great experience for the Scouts, and the adult leaders learned a lot too. Here are a few comments: Since your Pack doesn't have experience with campouts, investigate the Cub Scout camping opportunities available by your council. Usually, councils organize resident camps for Cub Scouts, providing most of the planning, facilities and leadership needed. All that's needed is for properly equipped parents and Cub Scouts to showe up to participate. People can participate in resident camping as boy-parent teams, but organizing your pack to go on one together would give your pack experience camping together. Often, Districts have summer daycamps ---this might be a place to start too. Thirdly, Family Camping is permitted for Cub Scouts. This is when families in a Cub Pack are responsible for themselves, but camp together at Scout Camps or other approved locations. The Cub Pack often has a program to bind people together, but families have the primary responsibility for looking after themselves. Lastly, Pack Overnights are when the Cub Pack leadership takes the primary responsibility of organizing food, shelter, and program. This is the most demanding on Pack leaders ---they have to be on the ball. These different options are described in Guide To Safe Scouting ---Section III Camping. Seattle Pioneer Can you tell I took BALOO training this year?

The boys in the troop I work with often have a somewhat casual approach to uniforming, and have often been rather awkward with flag ceremonies, too. The troop was invited to assist the cub pack I also work with with their pack overnight camping trip, and the Scouts were asked to do the flag ceremony for the Cubs. That worried me somewhat, since it also could have been a disaster. However, the Scouts chose to practice their flag ceremony using the church flagpole for the two meetings before the campout, and before the Cub Scouts arrived at the campsite. The flag being used was a large 48 star flag more than fifty years old, and the Cubmaster had a history of that flag he wanted to read during the ceremony. When the SPL called "attention," their practice paid off. The Scouts marched off very well, and when the SPL directed "present the colors," they snapped open the flag and held it open on display. The Cubmaster then read out his story and the flag was snappily raised. The Cubmaster later said he was impressed with the job the Scouts had done and had seen lots of flag ceremonies done by Eagle Scouts that compared unfavorably. I agreed. Later on, a Bear Den begged for coaching in how to retire the colors, and they did the closing ceremony. The Scouts mostly didn't have uniform pants on, but I think they provided an impressive ceremony despite that. Seattle Pioneer

I agree with Eamonn --- go ahead and file the application. Include a statement just as your describe it, with any documentation you might care to supply. I don't think a misdemeanor charge of the kind you describe would cause your app to be turned down. If I received your application, I'd make a point of calling your references and including the results of those calls with the application. Welcome to Scouting! Here's a suggestion ---- don't get buried just in your Scout Troop or Pack. There are a lot of nice people and activities at the District level. Find your District website and look for some activities to participate in --- Roundtables, Powwows, the District picnic and such can be a nice way to meet new people. Seattle Pioneer

I agree with Korea Scouter. I often bring a folding chair myself. My only beef is that I rarely find the time to sit in it. Decades ago, I used to go backpacking and climbing with the Mountaineers, a climbing club. I was used to getting up at 4AM, hiking all day, gulping down dinner at night and doing it again the next day. Then I got involved in Scouting and the boys taught me you could enjoy living outdoors at a leasurly pace and have good food too. The idea had never occurred to me! I'm just not sure where the leisurely pace has gone in the past decades. Then again, I can't believe how much harder the ground is now to sleep on than it was twenty years ago. Seattle Pioneer

Scouting has a variety of rules, such as those for advancing in rank and Guide to Safe Scouting. Personally, I'm not much in favor of trying to enforce blanket rules on Troops, SPLs or Scoutmasters beyond those already required by BSA. For example, my District organization has no such additional rules imposed on units that I can think of off hand. This leaves lots of room for Patrol Leaders, Senior Patrol Leaders and Scoutmasters to decide for themselves what rules are suitable for their Troops, and I think that's the whole point. As Scouts discover weaknesses in their organization, they should be able to devise rules to improve things. If they are merely enforcing an elaborate set of rules someone else devised at some time in the past, they aren't getting the opportunity for leadership that devising your own rules provides. Messy perhaps. But good for learning. Seattle Pioneer

Hello Vince--- It's great to hear about your enthusiasm for the program. Here are a few things I would concentrate on: 1) Are a high percentage of parents participating in leadership positions in the Cub Pack? If so, you should have the resources available to have a rich program to keep the Scouts interested. If you don't you will often have a stretched organization, with a feww people doing too much with can lead to the collapse of the pack when people get tired of being exploited. 2) Do you have a good Pack Committee Chair? This is the person who should be getting parents to participate in the organization and seeing to it that a lot of important jobs (like recruiting new boys) are done. If not, you need to be pushing the Cub Pack Committee to find a GOOD Pack Committee Chair. 3) to answer your question about what to do to keep boys interested --- that's easy. Go on see 'n' dos, go hiking and go camping. Hikes shouldn't just be walks, they should involve opportunities to learn Scouting skills and do things boys want to do. Pack Overnights, Pack Family Camping, Summer Daycamps run by your District and Cub Scout Resident Camps run by your Council are all good things to emphasize and get boy outdoors. Also, get yourself trained and encourage Den Leaders to get trained as well. That generally leads to a higher quality program. Seattle Pioneer

My Scoutmaster handbook is copyrighted 1981. D'ya 'spose I should buy a new one? Seattle Pioneer

I'd start your campaign by getting a new name for your organization. Seattle Pioneer

Interesting thread. I liked Eagle Dad's comments about the backpacking Camporee. Actually, we do that kind of thing on most hikes and camping trips. One of my theories is that Scouting isn't a walk in the park. Or at least not just a walk in the park. When we do a hike, it's programmmed to have accidents, emergencies and situations that require a variety of different Scout skills to be used. Map and compass problems, finding addresses in the city, fixing a punctured bicycle tire, all are things that Scouts may encounter. After dinner, a distressed mother may arrive to plead for help in locating two of her lost triplets. One may need to be searched for using a map, while another may have a GPS location the Scouts will need to find. The remaining triplet may be produced so the Scouts can recognize him when they find him. He'll probably look a lot like a bag of potato chips. One of the skills of leadership is turning work into games and competitions. Surely we aren't losing those skills? Seattle Pioneer

I collect pieces of brightly colored cloth when I find them for use as raw material for patrol or den flags. Last weekend, a Cub Pack used these materials to make den flags for all the dens. I pick them up at thrift shops or garage sales, sometimes buying old clothes with useful cloth in them. If Scouts want something fancier, I figure they can Scout it out themselves. Seattle Pioneer

Sorry, Scout Nut, I don't agree. I see nothing in the Scout rules that prohibit a Tiger Cub from lighting off a campfire when directly supervised by an adult. Guidelines are guidelines, not rules. As I understand it, that means they can be disregarded when competent leaders decide there is good reason to do so. This past weekend, I applied the guidelines at a Cub Pack Overnight to allow only Webelos and Boy Scouts to cook pancakes. But Tiger Cubs and Cub Scouts made their own foil dinners ---those who wanted to put them on and took them off a grill, while being supervised by an adult. That was minimal enough exposure to fire to be safe, in my view. The same with guidelines that discourage Tiger Cubs and Webelos from outdoor cooking. Would you really suggest that such Scouts shouldn't be permitted to roast hot dogs or marshmellows over a fire? I'll be glad to have someone point out a rule that prohibits such things, and I'll respect it. But the case hasn't been made as far as I can see. Seattle Pioneer

For those who might be nitpicked over sewing patches on their red wool shirt, it sounds like the proper course of action would be to simply point out that your shirt is made by Woolrich and looks exactly like the official red jacket, but isn't. That way you are free to sew whatever you want on it since it isn't a part of the uniform. Seattle Pioneer

I've heard of some charitable or fraternal groups that donate several thousand dollars per year to support their Scout groups. I'd be inclined to check out Kiwanis Clubs, Lion's Clubs, VFWs and othersuch groups that might be able to help with funding. Even if you aren't chartered by such groups, a unit that is short of funds might consider hitting up such groups for donations. Seattle Pioneer

Heh, heh! Right---- You could watch the Best of Scouting on TV and never have to get wet doing it yourself! Now then, what about the video game of Scouting? Seattle Pioneer

Hello, Scouterfly--- Personally, I see no good reason not to permit the project to be done with borrowed money and then repaid with findraising done at a more convenient time, but before the Eagle Award is approved. Indeed, it appears from other comments on this thread that parents could choose to donate everything if they wished and do no fundraising at all. Applying this kind of rule seems to be one of the "additional requirements" added on to Scouting that are often condemned on this board, and one that is pointlessly pedantic as well. Seattle Pioneer