SeattlePioneer

Hello, FScouter-- Thanks for your comments. It's all very well for people to say that they THINK that the Safe Swim Defense rules don't apply to rescue situations. But the plain language of the rules say that they apply to "swimming activities of any kind", and require specifically that all eight parts be used. How do you read that and decide such rules don't apply to rescue situations? It seems like a flat contradiction of the rules. That doesn't mean I think that rules should be followed which would permit people to drown. It just means that leaders have the responsibility to use good judgement in deciding to ignore some parts of the rules in order to achieve plainly more important purposes. It also means that the rest of the rules should continue to apply and only rules that are necessary to that larger purpose be disregarded. And a Scout group may encounter a distressed swimmer who is not a part of the Scout group, which would easily account for a lack of advanced preparation in meeting the SSD rules. Again, I'm glad to see that no one would observe all eight parts of the SSD and permit a distressed swimmer to drown. But I think it's only fair to conclude that this may well require that leaders decide to disregard certain portions of the rules in order to achieve the larger goals e all agree are more important. Seattle Pioneer

Hello, Cubmaster Mike--- Wow, that's a wild tale! I'm don't doubt you had your reasons, but did you consider getting help in collecting the money from your District Committee Chair or District Executive? They might have found the means to collect the money themselves, or called in the cops for a little discrete chat with the Chartered Organization Rep. They might well have put people on the BSA list of people who should not be leaders in the future. Congratulations on working your way through a difficult problem. Seattle Pioneer

Wow, Eamonn. I don't know how District Chairs manage. You have a universe of things you can pay attention to, but limited resources to deal with the situations. That seems to demand that you make hard decisions about what you make a priority. You are also highly dependent on getting volunteers to do things for you. That tends to be the nature of volunteer organizations ---a world of good things you might do, and limited resources you must husband and use in a wise and thrifty manner. Just a guess, but if you are worrying a lot about membership, you probably need a Membership Committee Chair. If you are worrying a lot about advancement, you probably need an Advancement Committee Chair. And of Course you know you need a District Commissioner. Of course, FINDING good people to fill those positions is hard. The DE for my District pitched me on becoming Membership Chair last fall. I looked at the Council literature and saw the responsibilities involved and said, "No Thanks!" Really, did I have STUPID written on my forehead? That didn't do any good though. A month ago at the District recognition dinner, my name was listed as Membership Committee chair on the program! (I'm studying up on the DE's recruiting techniques so I can use them myself). Anyway, I've been considering how to find new volunteers at the district level, and to form a functioning Membership Commmittee in particular (so I don't wind up doing all the work). Since I'm not about to try to do EVERYTHING a Membership Chair is supposed to do in the literature, I'm starting out by aiming to organize an effective recruiting effort by Cub Scout Packs this fall. Just tonight I began hitting up some Scouters I know, plus some suggested by the DE (he's GREAT at volunteering the unsuspecting!) for help. My aim is to find 5-6 defacto Assistant Membership Committee members each of whom will be responsible for contacting six or so Cub Packs. They will contact the Cub Pack leaders and sell them on the idea of finding suitable people to organize their own Pack recruiting effort. We will then have 1-2 meetings to train those Pack Level Membership Commmittee Members in how to plan an effective Pack recruiting effort and execute a good Scout night and Cub invitational effort to recruit new Cub Scouts. As I imagine it, the first meeting (perhaps at a Roundtable) would talk about how to plan the recruiting effort, while the second meeting (which the Council will help organize) will be about how to do the Scout night and recruting efforts themselves. Anyone carrying out these tasks effectively automatically gets put on my District Membership Committee, which should develope greater experience in doing the tasks over time, and good people can be identified and channeled into other leadership positions where they are needed. Perhaps over time we will be able to do more Membership related tasks, and do them with greater expertise. Our DE is great, but he is overwhelmed and really can't do more than a bare bones job of recruiting. We might be able to do a better job, and relieve him to do other things. And believe me, this isn't easy for me to do. I'm highly introverted by nature, and it's HARD for me to call up people I don't know WELL and ask them for help ---and I'm LOUSY at associating and remembering names and faces. The world tends to be populated by people I don't know and don't recognize unless I work with people quite a bit. Those are big handicaps. I figure if I'm lucky, I'll fall on my face and they'll HAVE to find someone else! If you have vacant positions you can't otherwise fill, perhaps it's worthwhile to find a good person and ask them to start off by doing one part of the job well. An Advancement Committee Chair who offers training to Cub Pack Advancement chairs might be able to get some of those people to help staff an effective District level advancement committee, drawing more people in to work for the District. Perhaps your Training Committee should emphasize methods by which units can convert uninvolved parents into active volunteers. This past weekend, the Cub Pack I'm UC for had a Pack Overnight and awards ceremony ---the premier activity for the year. We scheduled a Parent Meeting in between 5-6 PM when parents could hardly avoid attending. A District Trainer came in and gave an expert pitch on why parents needed to volunteer to help the Pack, something the existing Pack Committee didn't have the guts to do. The result ----several new parents agreed to serve. I wanted to follow that up by calling parents again and hitting them up again, but the Cubmaster thought that would be too tough. In short, I think you need to focus on important issues which might arguably lead to bringing in more resources to your District. Putting out fires thither and yon will merely tend to dissipate your strength and energy. Try to think of the things which promise to bring new volunteers into units and the District. I'm no Xpert at this ---I'm green as grass. But I have been thinking about how to leverage my limited time and energy so there is a chance I'll produce meaningful results. Maybe there is something in this mess of a post you'll find useful --- I hope so. Seattle Pioneer Rambling and rambling

Well, then there should be hope for getting my Wood Badge woggles, beads and such. I took the Wood Badge course in 1985, and completed all the requirements on my ticket, but didn't get the award before leaving Scouting in 1987 or so. Last year I signed on again. I think I'll talk to the District Training Chair about this at our District picnic in July! Seattle Pioneer

LyndaJ ---you ask if we aren't supposed to save them all. That's often an argument I use to justify too often tolerating poorly disciplined Scouts. But I suspect it's too often a mistake on my part. As you note, one problem child can disrupt a meeting ---even cause injuries. And bad boys can and do drive good Scouts out of a Troop. That's a VERY high price to pay. And we expect boys to take the Scout oath and law seriously, but how serious are WE if we continuously tolerate bad behavior? So I am acknowledging the error of my ways: we are NOT supposed to save them all. We are supposed to provide an environment in which the values of Scouting are respected and can flourish. That probably means being willing to suspend or separate boys who aren't willing or able to respect Scouting values. But maybe I'm wrong. I'm interested in hearing the comments of other Scouters. Seattle Pioneer

Whooo! Cyndi A --- great post! Best reply in the three of four pages of posts I've read so far. You've provided the adult coaching and leadership which made Troop Historian and meaningful position and valuable experience for a boy, and valuable for the Troop, too. I'll add another observation that hasn't been made yet: The Senior Patrol Leader is supposed to appoint these positions, but he has no obligation to appoint people unless he is satisfied that will do a good job. So before appointing a person to a position, the SPL should negotiate a set of goals the new Troop Officer is expected to meet, and then review the performance of the officer to see if those goals are being met. If they aren't, the officer might be given some additional time to perform, or removed from the job if they fail to perform. So that's my basic idea on how to make these positions meaningful and functional. Appoint only people with a real interest in doing the work. Have the SPL negotiate clear goals these boys are expected to meet. Remove them from office if they are unable or unwilling to perform in satisfactory ways. Not that it's all that easy. I've been struggling to encourage the Troop Bugler to bugle for several months. His first effort this past weekend proved that he needs.... more practice. I really need to see if I can get the SPL to set some bugling goals with this Scout, such as bugling for the Troop each week. Seattle Pioneer

Wow, great effort Robert! Your decision to operate the Pack program over the summer is the right one. Hit up the adults who show up at your events to be leaders, and work towards having your leadership team together by fall. Also, you need to have someone figuring out how to recruit new Tiger Cubs and Cub Scouts this fall. You need a good organizational person to do that, and need to investigate how the Pack has traditionally done that, if those methods worked well. You are getting a lot of excellent advice in this thread. A good Pack in our District had a Cubmaster who did "everything, and did a very good job at it, just as your describe. The problem is that when they leave, you have a huge hole to fill. Fortunately, this Pack didn't limp along with a poor leader as yours did until the whole Pack had mostly dissipated. The only person paying attention was a lady who had volunteered to be "Popcorn Colonel," and didn't have anyone to sell popcorn! No One even had a roster of Pack members. As Unit Commissioner, I'm glad to say I helped get that Pack up and running again. We just had a very succesful Pack Campout, and recruited more adult leaders. If the leadership keeps hammering at adults to be leaders, they should do OK. So it can be done! And you are proving it yourself. I'm very impressed, and wish you the best. Seattle Pioneer

Interesting thread. Unfortunately, there are probably quite a few Troops that ought to be sporting gold stars on their units flags these days. In an ideal world, perhaps Districts or Councils would have a volunteer willing to investigate whether service men or women killed in the war on terror have been Cub or Boy Scouts, and encourage those units to recognize the service of those one time members. As I see obituaries on war casualties, I will keep an eye out for indications that they were Scouts, with an aim of notifying their units of this kind of recognition. It just might be comforting to surviving family members to have their son remembered and honored in a unit the families once participated in. Seattle Pioneer

We have a Star Scout who will be turning 16 shortly who is significantly retarded, but not nearly as disabled as the boy you describe. His father works (Troop Commmittee hair) works with him intensively, which is most of the reason for his advancement (to Life Scout shortly, as I understand it). He hasn't needed waivers to advance. He's good at music and is the Troop Bugler. His worst vice is being lazy, and until the past weekend he hadn't bugled since a Court of Honor last October. I've been strongly encouraging him to bugle at troop meetings, outings, Camporee and such. Last weekend, our Scoutmaster brought along a bugle, but our bugler was so out of practice he could scarcely get a correct note out for the flag ceremonies. We are continuing to encourage him to bugle, including at a daycamp we will be setting up at an elementary school carnival this next weekend. I would REALLY like to see him be a motivated bugler, since it's classy and a good leadership opportunity for him. This same boy led a couple of songs at The Cub Pack campfire. He is a master of song lyrics, and does a good job of encouraging participation. At the daycamp, we may have a campfire and I'd like to see this Scout help plan the campfire program and lead the campfire. He LIKES being a leader, and finding him opportunities to be a leader is one of the best things we can do for him, I think. I like Eamonn's story about the handicapped Scouter who mows the grounds. Getting to know such people well enough to know what they can do and want to do, and then looking for opportunities to do those things is one of the ways Scouting can help such people, I think. Not much different than how any other boy or adult is treated, if you look at it right. Seattle Pioneer

Well, a boy who had been scating along on thin ice for some time managed to get himself suspended after a magnificant collection of foul ups at the Pack overnight our Troop was assisting with last weekend. This 11 year old had been trying the patience of Scouts and Scouters, the Scoutmaster in particular. A dirty mouth and aggressive behavior have been the main complaints. The Scoutmaster had talked with me about the desireability of suspending him or requiring a parent along on outings. This past weekend was a corker, though. 1) I personally saw him give a shove to a much larger boy who was already off balance, sending him for a bad fall which could easily have produced injuries 2) he and his tentmate got up and wandered around camp late at night 3) despite the warning to all the Scouts to treat the Cub Scouts supremely well, this boy was caught squirting a Cub Scout with deoderant 4) after returning from camp, the boys father called the Scoutmaster to report his son had $20 in cash he shouldn't have. This turned out to be a part of $30 cash missing by the boy's tentmate who had the money to pay in Scout fees. Last night the boy, his father, Scoutmaster, Troop Commmittee chair and another Troop Committee member discussed these issues, and decided to suspend the boy for the remainder of the month. Apparently everyone involved agreed on that action. I think it's a good decision, too. It's long enough to give the boy something to think about, and he'll miss a daycamp at a carnival and weekend bicycle camping trip. But he'll be back in time to demonstrate good behavior before summer camp in late July. He's going to have to shape up or ship out, though. This was an easy call. It might well be argued that such action should have been taken earlier over the bad language/aggressive behavior issues. When I was Scoutmaster twenty odd years ago, there was a boy who had behavior issues. While I talked to his parents about those things, and we gave him "time outs" sometimes, I never wound up suspending him. That was probably a mistake, I say now. Letting behavior challenged Scouts get away with too much too long can drive better Scouts out of the unit, discourage better behaved boys and the behavior doesn't seem to correct itself over any reasonable amount of time. I'll be interested to see how this boy reacts to this suspension. Anyone else with stories on how suspensions or disciplinary actions have affected behavior by Scouts? Seattle Pioneer

I'm glad to hear that even those most devoted to obeying rules wouldn't let someone drown while they were marking out a swimming area with balloons. But I would be interested in having those who find an exemption to the Safe Swim Defense for rescue situations to show me where that is in the Safe Swim Defense rules themselves, or some other Scout rules that provides an exemption. As I read the SSD rules listed in the Guide to Safe Scouting, it says, " Before a BSA group may engage in swimmming activities of any kind, one adult leader must complete Safe Swim Defense training... and agree to use the eight defenses in this plan." There are no exemptions for emergency rescues that I can find. That's why I continue to suggest that one of the responsibilities of leadership can be to know when to violate a rule. And as I and others have pointed out, that doesn't mean that an emergency means that ALL the SSD should be ignored. Indeed, choosing wisely what to do becomes especially critical in a rescue situation. Ideally, an adult leader will decide what methods of rescue are the best to use, and use reaching or throwing as preferred methods. If that's not possible, determining whether currents, obstructions or rapids make a water rescue worth trying would be an important decision. Choosing the most qualified people to perform such a rescue, and providing them with ropes to aid in rescue would be appropriate. And adult leaders may need to be brave enough to ask or encourage Scouts or qualified people to make a rescue effort, and discuss a rescue plan with them. In short, in a rescue situation I'd use as much of the Safe Swim Defense as I could, but I might decide to violate portions of these rules in order to save a life. As everyone seems to acknowledge, a rescue effort is different than a recreational swim. Rules that require marking out ability levels can be ignored in an emergency, and competent leadership will recognize that fact and choose to dispense with such a rule in order to save a life. Seattle Pioneer

ScoutNut, Yep, the youngest Tiger Cubs were given the honor of lighting off the fire we used for 'Smores and the double header fires for campfire. This was done directly under the supervision of an adult leader. Guidelines are guidelines, not rules. They deserve careful consideration, but aren't bars to action if adult leaders decide activities are safe and properly supervised. Earlier in this thread it was pointed out that the guidelines discourage Cub Scouts from cooking, too. Would you use those guidelines to decide that Cub Scouts shouldn't be permitted to roast hot dogs on a stick or marshmellows? That's my understanding of this kind of issue, based on the discussions I've seen so far. Seattle Pioneer

Hello, Scoundad I admire you enthusiasm, and it sounds as though it is needed in your District. I would encourage you to become active as a volunteer in your District. You might fit in very well as a Unit Commissioner, acting as a friend to a couple of struggling Cub Packs and helping to point them in the right direction. You might volunteer with your training, camping or outdoor committees to help start or support programs that are worthwhile. If you worked with your District Membership Committee, you might help devise ways to make the transition from Webelos to Boy Scouts easier and more reliable. I'm sure you are already busy with your Webelos activities, but this is something you should already be transferring to new Webelos leaders who will be taking over when you leave (unless you are planning to remain indefinitely. Even then, you should have an assistant or two who is learning to do the work and to take responsibility from you. While it's easy for units to see the things that the District should be supplying for them, often Unit leaders don't see the things they should be doing for the District. In my view, units that vie themselves as being succesful ought to be identifying unit leaders who can do tasks and work at the District level. Perhaps that's something you could discuss at an upcoming Pack Committee Meeting. Seattle Pioneer

It's very sad to hear reports like yours, Novpr. Has anyone taken that issue to Council meetings to complain about that kind of thing? I'd be inclined to ask the District Chair for an explanation, and perhaps for a report back on how things will change in the future. Seattle Pioneer

Thanks describing your experiences, 3sons. The Pack Overnight was last weekend, and the Troop I'm a part of camped with the Pack and assisted with the campout. The Pack took an hour for a parent meeting, and the District sent a trainer in who described unfilled troop leadership positions and created an atmosphere that was highly conducive to parents volunteering to fill positions. Several did so. It sounds like both you and we had a lot of good experiences. I'm a little surprised that you formed ad hoc teams and team leaders, rather than using the Den structure and leaders. Was there a reason not to use the dens? Personally, I pushed for Dens to be used as the main way of organizing boys and activities, but the Cubmaster and Pack Committee didn't use that structure much except for an exercise in making Den flags. My experience in Boy Scouts teaches me to do things by Patrols/Dens, and I think doing so on a campout would reduce the risk of boys getting lost in the shuffle, and keep them feeling a part of the group. However, this wasn't a big issue ---much to my surprise, there was very little in the way of fights, mayhem or lost and neglected children. It did leave me feeling my age, though (55). Seattle Pioneer

A couple of weeks ago I started a thread about "The Old Goat Patrol" because I didn't know if it was a good idea. We have a very small Troop with one functioning patrol. Having an adult patrol that lines up and snaps to attention when order is called for helps set a good example for the Scouts, and is a better form of leadership than correcting Scouts, I thought. Also, adults need to sign up for outings, plan menues and rosters for cooking and doing dishes too, and these things weren't being done in a very organized way. An adult patrol where signing up for such things could be helpful. However, I wouldn't want adults to be competing with Boy Scouts. That should not be an aim or function of an adult patrol, in my view. But helping to set a good example, getting necessary tasks completed and training adults new to Scouting in the methods of Scouting all seem like potentially useful reasons to have an adult patrol to me. Of course, many troops may not need that kind of formal structure. I suggest this idea only as something to be considered where it will serve useful purposes. Seattle Pioneer

The issue of having a late night watch while camping out was raised in another thread. Eamonn, you raise an interesting issue by noting that some Scouter groups may have a late night watch for "issues" and problems. A year ago when I was with another Troop, there was a combined Boy Scout/Venturing overnight with mostly new campers/members that were a definite handful. The next morning(at a state park) we found that the toilets and washstands in the bathrooms had been broken apart. There was anedotal evidence that a group of people unrelated to our group came into the park and did this damage, but I've always had my doubts. Last weekened at a joint Troop/Cub Pack Overnight, we had a couple of boys who apparently got up at night to wander around, and might have gotten themselves into trouble. Also, while Cub Scouts were accompanied by parents, they weren't necessarily sleeping in the same tent with them. It's always possible boys might have tummy aches, be frightened or have other problems. Under what conditions might you find it desireable to schedule adults to keep watch over the camp and deal with possible problems? What hours might you have such a watch conducted? Seattle Pioneer

******* Report From the Pack Overnight ***** The Pack Overnight really went beautifully. I'm amazed to say that most things went pretty much the way they were planned. The foil pizzas were a hit with the Cub Scouts. After the awards ceremony/crossover, the Cub Scouts came trooping down the trail, to find a fire layed for roasting marshmellows and making 'smores. The youngest Tiger Cub was supervised in lighting off the fire. After the 'smores, everyone hiked over to the large camp firebowl, where the Scout Troop SPL had layed a double campfire. Again, the youngest Tiger Cubs lit off the campfires. Breakfast the next morning went very well. We filled a 12" Dutch Oven with about six pounds of linksausage, which baked very well in an hours time. Four pancake stations were supervised by adults as Webelos and Boy Scouts cooked breakfast for about 35-40 people. Our Boy Scouts impressed everyone (including me) with a really snappy flag raising ceremoney. The Kiwanis Club camp we were using sported a 48 star flag, and on command the Scouts broke out the flag for display which the Cubmaster read a history of the 48 star flag. They did a fine flag raising job, only partly spoiled by our out-of-practice Troop Bugler who butchered the bugle call for raising the colors. Busy, busy busy! I was pooped when I got home! This evening I was out making a special trip by the home of crossed over Webelos Scouts to invite them to out Troop Meeting tomorrow, and an elementary school carnival we'll be at on Saturday. Seattle Pioneer

I am sentimentally attached to my backpack, tent and sleeping bag. All are nearly 30 years old. The backpack is a Kelty Tioga framepack, and is in almost like new condition despite having been hauled around for 2500-3000 miles. The tent is a Jan Sport Trail Wedge. It's weathered many a storm, and it is always the most weather beaten tent in camp. It looks its age, and I've had to replace three of the fiberglass poles over the years, but that just involves a trip to REI ---they are good about supplying replacements. My prize sleeping bag is and Eddie Bauer down bag from the good old days when they made fine equipment. I've darned up a rare hole or two that leaked down, but generally it's in fine condition. Now, about my boots..... Seattle Pioneer

Interesting post, bbng. Wow, it's really sad that you had several adult leaders laughing at you. Dealing with that problem then becomes the problem of the Scoutmaster or Troop Committee Chair, I'd say. If they are a part of the problem, then it ought to be up to the Chartered Organization Rep to provide guidance on such an issue. The Troop I was ASM for a year ago permitted families at Camporee (a bad idea, in my view). Worse, one single mom was foul mouthed, nasty in talking to her children and smoked to boot. The SPL had the nerve to ask her not to smoke, and she complained about that to the Scoutmaster, who backed up the SPL in plain language. I felt rather sorry for this woman, who was plainly overwhelmed with her family. On the other hand, the children were of no help whatsoever to the mother. Her Scout-son was a good Scout when acting as a Scout and of absolutely no help to his overwhelmed mother when he was in the role of a child! I like to tell parents that one of the best reason to go along on Scout outings is the opportunity to see their son at his best. Then I tell them that the OTHER best reason to go on Scout outing is for their son to see the parents at their best. Sometimes it doesn't work that way, but usually parents are influenced to be at their best, just as the rest of us are. Seattle Pioneer

Bob White remains stupefied by my suggestion that good leadership may require that rules be broken. I'll give a simple example. Suppose your Troop encounters a drowning swimmer. As Scoutmaster, you know that two Scouts have earned the lifesaving merit badge and completed the mile swim. You encourage them to use their lifesaving skills to recscue the swimmer without delay. BUT: Oh, my! You IGNORE the requirements of the Safe Swim Defense that require that the Safe Swim Defense be reviewed before swimming. You IGNORE carefully scouting out the swimming area in order to be able to save someone's like. You IGNORE laying out and marking the non swimmer, beginner and simmer zones. You use good judgement to decide which parts of the safe swim defense can be disregarded in the interests of saving a life. What that leader does is to scope out the situation to make sure that a rescue is reasonable--- white water and rapids might require that no rescue effort is attempted. Providing a rope and support for the rescuer to swim out to the victim might be instantly decided upon. In short, I continue to suugest that good leadership may require a decision to break rules when there is good reason to do so. That doesn't mean to break rules without a good reason for doing so. Seattle Pioneer

Apparently, it's not just a song, it's a story line too. I don't have time to read this since I'm going to start ripping up my kitchen and house to support a Pack Overnight today. But I'm printing it off and will give it to the parent doing the campfire tonight. Perhaps he will want to use it. http://www.scouter.com/archives/scouts-l/199511/0834.asp

I remember a film that came out twenty five years ago or so --- "The Summer of '42" about the adventures of a boy who was 13 or 14 or so growing up in that year. He and his two buddies ran pretty much wild around the community at that age --- mock capturing the local Coast Guard station many times, and having an affair with a beautiful war widow, who would today be locked up as a child molester with Mary K Laterneau. Seattle Pioneer

I will report back next month when I find out what's happened. Several threads on UCs complain that Commissioner status is a retirement home for venerable Scouters. The four who were volunteered last night might fit like that, good people who've perhaps gotten a bit too comfortable. This might provide a challeenge to get them working together in effective ways to help a struggling unit that otherwise would be left to it's own devices. Thanks for your comments, rkfrance. Seattle Pioneer

Wow. Another excellent post. Thank you Oak Tree. Your last post describes a really desireable situation in my view. Keeping Dens together and learning together ought to be the ideal. Just how many campouts do you do per year, and where are you located? After we get done with the traditional campout, I'm probably going to be promoting the idea of a fall campout as well. My theory is that good Cub Packs probably do lots of camping. I'd like to see the Pack give that theory a try. And I'm sure with greater experience things would settle down and be easier to do. A couple of questions, though. In your earlier post you said that Den cooking often becomes family cooking. That seems less desireable that the situation you describe in your last post. And Scout Nut cites portions of the Guide to Safe Scouting which apparently discourage cooking by those younger than Webelos. Any comments on that? Usually the G2SS has an explantion that backs up and describes the limitations on that summmary of dos/don't in the back. But I didn't see an explantion of limitations in the camping section where I thought it might be. If you just read the bare faced portion refernced by Scout Nut, it would seem to rule out Cub Scouts roasting hot dogs, marshmellows and 'smores. I'd like to see more discussion on how that issue should be interpreted and applied. Seattle Pioneer