SeattlePioneer

The National BSA has a tie in for fall recruiting with General Motors. The theme is "The Race to Cub Scouting" and this will be promoted by General Motors in it's advertizing this fall. I just conducted training for our district Cub Scout units in fall recruiting using the "Race to Cub Scouting" theme, which included decorating the meeting room with racing type finish flags and checkered table clothes and such. Perhaps that wouled work for you. Seattle Pioneer

Sorry, but power is an inescapable part of life and Boy Scouts. Scouts and Scouters don't decide the Scout Law for themselves, the choices are made for us by people with the authority to do so --- the power to do so. similarly for the uniform, the Scoutmaster and many other elements of Scouting. Scouting is not about how to eliminate power, but about learning to use power wisely. In my view, the issue here is whether disagreeable forms of punishment such as pushups or kybo cleaning ever be a useful way to deal with a problem in Scouting, and whether such punishments are permitted under Scouting rules. I continue to suggest that I see no clear rule that prohibits such punishments, although they are not recommended in training either. So I'd continue to suggest that they may be used by Scout units if the leaders think it is wise, appropriate or necessary to do so. Seattle Pioneer

Hello Grey Eagle, If you don't choose to use punishments in you Scout program, that's certainly fine by me. Frankly, I don't use kybo cleaning or pushups as a punishment either, although I suppose there might come a time when I might want to do so. As I noted, I encountered a summercamp Merit Badge Coumnselor requiring two Scouts I'd brought to camp to do pushups. That didn't offend my sensibilities, even if it might not have been my style. I might add that one of these boys had been suspended from the Troop for a month in June because of stealing money from a tentmate, pushing a much larger Scout and sending him sprawling and spraying a Cub Scout in a Pack we were visiting with deoderant (all on the same weekend campout). Was punishing him for these behaviors wrong? It was, after all, a display of power no different really than requiring pushups. The real bottom line in this discussion to me are the claims that Scouting prohibits punishments such as pushups. I don't see any such prohibition myself in the rules that is clear. On the other hand, such punishments aren't recommended or taught in Scout Leader training either. As far as I can see, such punishments are permitted under Scout rules if they don't violate other provisions, such as those against corporal punishment (flogging). Seattle Pioneer

Hello Evmori, You are making a lot of assumptions about the future that have nothing to do with the facts as they exist today. And just what WOULD you do, anyway? Require that the boy get professional treatment as an alcoholic? Require him to "take the pledge"? When I see violations of the Scout oath like this, it's not up to me to take responsibility to require that a boy change his behavior. The most effective means of influencing such behavior is to recall the boy to his obligations as a young man and Scout. That's what I's suggest here. If an Eable BOR wants to take some action, adjourn the BOR and ask the Scout to come back next month with a brief report on the legalities of underage drinking and the legal and physical hazards of doing so. If he does that, then approve him. You haven't ignored the problem ---you've taken suitable action to educate the Scout and cause him to reconsider his behavior. I see no reason why any more should be expected with the facts that we have at hand.. Seattle Pioneer

After reading through the thread, I find Hunt's post at the end of page 3 persuasive. He suggests that there really is no evidence that this drinking is substantial or harmful. There is nothing to suggest that the parents are irresponsible by finding that they choose to tolerate this conduct, rather than use power to suppress it. So we find 1) no demonstrated actual harm being done 2) responsible parents who are aware of this potential problem but don't see a need to take action on it now. 3) a violation of the law. How to resolve the conflicts? I'd be inclined to look for a way to sidestep the issue, rather than confronting it forcefully. Perhaps ask the Scout to investigate the hazards of drinking, and drinking and driving. At that point you have taken steps to educate the Scout about the potential hazards of alcohol use. At that point, we have met our obligation. I don't see that we need to extract promises of reform from the Scout or put him on probation of some kind. We judge the Eagle Scout applicant for what he is now. It recognizes what Scouting can do and what it cannot do. And it is a response that (I suggest) is proportionate to the facts as presented. I'm throwing this position out for discussion. Seattle Pioneer

As I noted, I took Baloo training this spring as Unit Commissioner for a Pack I advise. The CM, AC and CC were there too. While I think you have an argument, I'm not especially interested in burdening people further. So--- if you think Baloo Training should be added as a requirement, which current requirement would you remove? Seattle Pioneer

Hello again, Scout Nut, As I'm sure you are aware, stating an opinion doesn't make it true. But you and your sons are both welcome to yours. I even agree with it, as a general rule. I think I mentioned I don't have occasion to use such methods myself. But I found no reason to rebuke the Merit Badge Counsellor I encountered giving Scouts in my Troop pushups to do for misbehaving in her Merit Badge class ---they had already been tossed out of a Cooking Merit Badge class. If you can find clear and unambiguous Scout rules on the subject, I'd be glad to hear about it. Seattle Pioneer

Hello Scout Nut, I think pushups in the context e are discussing clearly is intended to be constructive, a reminder to boys that certain behavior is wrong. I suppose we can argue about what the BSA means by it's prohibition on corporal punishment. I think we agree that flogging is out. I don't think your have made a concing case that pushups are out. If they had said that any form of punishment is prohibited, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I don't see any suggestions in the Scoutmaster's Handbook for using pushups, nor do I recall such methods being recommended in training. Neither do I recall them being ruled off limits. As to your proposal to make an issue about this within a Troop, I would have no objection to that, although a much better way would be for the parent to raise this issue at a Troop Commmittee meeting and decide on a Troop policy. Finding a definitive answer on how Scouting rules should be interpreted should be your first objective. I again suggest that the Guide to Safe Scouting rules aren't clear on this issue, in my opinion. Seattle Pioneer

Interesting discussion. Jay--- I've done 3500 miles or so of backpacking, climbing, snowshoeing, crosscounry skiing and such in my lifetime. These have been mostly on independent trips, the Mountaineers, and Scouts. No volunteer led groups have the standards of leadership of professional guide services. That's an unreasonable standard to suggest, in my view. If you want the standards of a professional guide, hire one. I have seen volunteer leaders who do trips that are too ambitious for their own skills and the skills of party members ---probably the biggest mistake of volunteer leaders. I quit a Scout unit a year ago because I wasn't satisfied with the safety precautions on outings, having failed to get unit leaders to take such things more seriously. In my view, the Scouts do a good job of training leaders in the risks they need to deal with on outings. But that doesn't mean they do the job of thoroughly training people in outdoor skills. People are warned of the hazards and instructed in certain rules designed to limit certain hazards (such as the safe swim defense). More rules and guidelines are listed in the Guide to Safe Scouting. But whether Scout leaders follow those rules, and whether they limit trips to those they have the competence and experience to do so in good style is something adult leaders and the troop committee (and parents) need to monitor. The one outing I went on with that Troop FRIGHTENED me. The potential for disaster was real. In addition, it was just a lousy outing with no Scout program or purpose to speak of. I reported these problems to the Troop Committee, who I found were generally aware of what was going on, but unwilling to do anything about it. When I saw that, I began the process of leaving. My guess is that parents can decide such issues based on their contact with a Troop. Reckless behavior usually isn't hidden, it's right there if people can recognize it. Seattle Pioneer

Sorry, Madkins. I don't think minor forms of punishment to enforce rules is meaningless at all. Indeed, in my view, the beginning of good character is discovering that actions have consequences. Suppose a boy leaves his raingear at home and it rains. Do we need to supply him with raingear to avoid having him be "punished by nature? Are we humiliating him if we offer him a garbage sack as protection, with another garbage sack as a hat to wear? Sorry, I'd have to say that your attempt to use Scout rules to prove that punishment isn't allowed is unproven in my opinion. I again note that "corporal" punishment e.g. flogging is clearly prohibited, but other forms of punishment are not, although they are limited in ways you describe. I've never heard that the rules were to be interpreted in the way you describe at any training I've encountered, and pushups and kybo cleaning and other such punishments are used by some troops. Furthermore, my dictionary defines hazing in the way you describe, with a purpose to "oppress, punish or harass," as being a specialized nautical usage. The more general definition given is " to initiate or discipline (fellow students) by means of horseplay, practical jokes and tricks, often in the nature of humiliating or painful ordeals." So I again suggest your use of hazing in the context of this discussion is misplaced. That said, I don't generally use punishments like these myself. I prefer to remind misbehaving Scouts of our obligations to live the Scout Law. Repeated problems may earn someone a more formal meeting with the Scoutmaster to discuss appropriate behavior, and bad enough behavior resulted in one boy being suspended from Troop activities for a month in June. (stealing money from a tent mate, pushing a much larger boy in a way that sent him sprawling, and spraying a Cub Scout with deoderant). Since then, he hasn't repeated these kinds of serious problems, leaving us to concentrate on less serious kinds of misbehavior, such as the cussing that earned him the pushups from a merit badge counselor at summercamp. Still, if other Troops find such punishments useful, I see nothing in the rules that prohibit them from doing so, although there are limits to such things in Guide to Safe Scouting. Seattle Pioneer

I as a Scoutmaster for several years, and have a lot of outdoor experience. I took Baloo training this spring because I'm working with a Cub Pack for which I'm Unit Commissioner, and wanted to be informed. Two leaders from the Cub Pack attended as well, to be prepared for out very succesful Pack overnight June 4-5. There are quite a few special things to be aware of when camping with young boys, like Cubs. Baloo brings you up to speed on things to be aware of and regulations of such outings out of the pages of Guide to Safe Scouting. In addition, there were a variety of pointers on how to do things simply and easily, and even which local businesses to hit up for contributions to the event. I thought it was reasonable to require someone to be trained before holding this kind of event. Also--- a large part of the reason many boys join Cub Scouts is the promise to go hiking and camping. Succesful units tend to be the ones that do this fairly often. The Pack I work with is planning a day hike in early October which will have a chance to do outdoor scourcraft at the destination we are hiking to. That event will be featured in our recruiting effort as well to help draw new boys into the pack. Seattle Pioneer

I had occasion to attend the Council rountable meeting that is held onec/month. Probably a dozen or more old hands at planning and conducting roundtables. There's probably a lot of good advice and ideas there if you have a similar meeting. Also --- look around for another district that has their roundtable scheduled ahead of yours. You can attend a crib a bunch of ideas on how to do your own. I also agree that you need someone else to help you. Before you accepted the position, you should had held out for the district to find you an assistant. Rule of thumb one: If you are asked to take responsibility for a position in Scouting, offer to be an assistant if they find someone to be the top banana. Rule of thumb two: If you are asked to take responsibility for a position in Scouting, make acceptance conditional on finding an assistant to help you out. Seattle Pioneer

Well, I do show up for District meetings Scoutldr ---every month. And that means tonight in about forty minutes! I "discovered" I was appointed as District Membership Chair when my name appeared in that position at the District recognition dinner in May. Then I "discovered" I was elected a District Member-At-Large when I attended the District picnic/election a week ago and took the time to read the list of people whose names were approved. I imagine that I'll be asked to fill out an application when the District recharters.. In the meantime, I don't worry too much about such details. The DE got the benefit of a few digs about his methods of recruiting new help for the District at the recognition dinner ----I'm apparently in good company. Seattle Pioneer

Hello CNYScouter, You have listed a number of good reasons. District events ought to offer challenges, opportunities and learning experiences that a troop by itself generally can't provide. Den Chief Training might be an example. District and Counsel events ought to provide examples of EXCELLENT scout programs, which can help Scouts and Scouters understand how troop events should be conducted, and give them a standard to measure against At summercamp last week, I made a point of explaining to the Scoutmaster how activities were used to capture and hold the interest of Scouts, and usually changed every 15-20 minutes to keep ahead of the boredom and bad behavior than lurks behind a poor program. He started to notice examples of that after a few days. District events can give Scouts an opportunity to learn that practice pays off with expertise that can be measured and wins recognition. This spring, we had a monthly theme of First Aid that was a part of each troop meeting and the theme of our monthly outing. This was followed up by the District First Aid Oree, where our lone patrol won third place overall, a very commendable performance. Then again, I'm fortunate to be in a district that has very good to excellent events consistantly. If they were poor quality, I'd look for another district to visit and participate with. Just as SCOUTS tend to drop out of Troops that have a poor program, I suspect that Troops tend to drop out of District events that aren't of very good to excellent quality. Seattle Pioneer

Thanks, Scoutldr. I attended the District Picnic/elections last week. After the elections, I was looking through the list of District Members at Large, and found my name listed. First I'd heard of it! I wear the uniform for my post as Troop Commmittee chair, but I'm also a UC, District Membership Chair and now Member At Large. I need a short sleeved uniform anyway (and some shorts!), so I'm considering which way to go with a uniform for District type activities. I'd probably wear a District Membership Committee insignia if one is available, and a District Committee insignia if it's not. My current uniform blouse is nearly 25 year old and getting a bit threadbare, although there was a 15 year gap when I wasn't in Scouting. Also --- I'm not exactly sure what the significance is of the position of District Member At Large? I'm supposing that it allows a person to remain a BSA member without having a unit level position. Seattle Pioneer

I've never been involved much in popcorn sales, but I'm interested to see if I can devise a fun way to kick off popcorn sales for the smal Troop I work with. Safeway usually permits Scout units to sell popcorn in front of it's stores. I'm considering a Saturday activity for the Troop where we would set up a stationary bicycle and promote the idea of buying popcorn to support the bicycle relay race. Anyone making a sale from a Scout earns the Scout the right to bicycle a certain distance based on the dollar amount of the sale. We'd have a board to keep track how far each Scout has pedalled and the total distance on the relay race. There could be lots of ways to dress up this basic idea of having a showy way to attract attention. Are there any veteran popcorn Colonels who would care to comment? Seattle Pioneer

The Guide to safe Scouting clearly prohibits "corporal punishment." By implication, other forms of punishment are permitted My dictionary defines "corporal punishment as "punishment inflicted directly on the body, as flogging." I'll agree that flogging is frowned upon, but I see nothing to prohibit a few push ups. On the subject of punishment, the G2SS: Youth Member Behavior Guidelines The Boy Scouts of America is a values-based youth development organization that helps young people learn positive attributes of character, citizenship, and personal fitness. The BSA has the expectation that all participants in the Scouting program will relate to each other in accord with the principles embodied in the Scout Oath and Law. One of the developmental tasks of childhood is to learn appropriate behavior. Children are not born with an innate sense of propriety and they need guidance and direction. The example set by positive adult role models is a powerful tool for shaping behavior and a tool that is stressed in Scouting. Misbehavior by a single youth member in a Scouting unit may constitute a threat to the safety of the individual who misbehaves as well as to the safety of other unit members. Such misbehavior constitutes an unreasonable burden on a Scout unit and cannot be ignored. Member Responsibilities All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, and drugs and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program and may result in the revocation of a Scout's membership in the unit. If confronted by threats of violence or other forms of bullying from other youth members, Scouts should seek help from their unit leaders or parents. Unit Responsibilities Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it. The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members. The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit. If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout's membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout's membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action. The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member. ---------------------------------------------- I see nothing that would prohibit a few pushups as long as it doesn't become oppressive. It might even do some good once in a while. I encountered an Art Merit badge counsellor at summer camp giving two scouts I'd brought to camp some pushups for cussing and being disrespectful. I'm sure they were richly deserved. I took the time to walk along with the group to be sure that the boys behaved better. And if boys refused to do pushups as requested, I'd refer them to the Scoutmaster or the Troop Committee to decide what action might be suitable. Those powers could decide whether "punishment" was suitable or not, and decide what counsel to offer the Scout. Seattle Pioneer

Frankly, I didn't pay too much attention to the details of how the exercise was run, which was decided by the SPL. The adult leaders supplied the SPL with the ice cream, and he decided on a location on the church grounds to hide it and organized the teams to search for it in an orderly way. The Scouts had fun doing it, but seemed to think more practice would help with their SAR skills. With more patrols, you could make it a competition, with each patrol given a different "lost child" to find and see who finds their victim first. Seattle Pioneer

I'd make it a point to invite your COR to unit meeting and committee meetings, so he/she gets to know the parents and develope some confidence in their judgement that the CC needs to go. Doing this at rechartering is also an excellent idea. Seattle Pioneer

I noticed that Merit Badge Counsellors at summercamp were handing out push ups for bad behavior in class. I'm sure that was richly deserved, and it's fine by me. The beginning of good character is discovering that actions have consequences. Seattle Pioneer

The prevailing view in this thread seems to be that there is no "Scouting gene." I'll agree with that as a rule. But I think there might be an "Eagle Scout gene." Seattle Pioneer

Last night the Troop had a very good practice exercise in doing a search for a lost child. The SPL did a good job of setting up the exercise, the Scouts found the lost child (a half gallon of ice cream), learned something about organizing on short notice and had a good time doing it. One suggestion: a bag of potato chips might be a better choice than the ice cream! I hope others will begin posting examples of troop/pack activities they've has success with. Seattle Pioneer

I see that there are a number of good and worthy answer to the question I posed in this thread. My own bias would be to say that First Class is the most important rank. The promise of the Boy Scouts to boys is to teach them to be good hikers and campers, and this is one of the important goals of the First Class requirements. The other major goal is to achieve the major aims of Scouting, which is to develope character, fitness and good citizenship. These goals should also be achieved through the methods of Scouting on the Road to First Class. Star, Life and Eagle are fine for those boys who wish to continue in advancement, but I see them mainly as polishing and expanding upon the basic skills and character they should already have developed. Seattle Pioneer

Consider integrating your Pack Program and recruiting efforts together. Your first Pack meeting can be one to get the Pack organized, appoint Den Leaders and start some contests to encourage the Scouts to bring their brothers and friends into Cub Scouting. You can make up business cards with the name of the Scout on one side, and the date, time and location of your Scout night on the other. Each Scout gets three or four of these with his name on it. Any card returned at the Scout night by a new boys earns them a prize or award. At your Scout night, sign the boys up and invite them to a Pack meeeting scheduled the next week. At the Pack Meeting, get the new Scouts into their Den and have a hike or Pack overnight planned so that new Scouts have the promise of Scouting to go hiking and camping redeemed. Use the hike or overnight as a key marketing theme to attract new boys and keep them in the Pack. Seattle Pioneer

So, in your opinion, what's the most important rank for a boy to achieve in Scouting, and why?