SeattlePioneer

Sorry fgoodwin, I don't agree. "When they get affordable," what will probably happen is that the system will rapidly become overwhelmed with beacons going off, perhaps degrading the system to the point where it can't function. And your comment that Scouts don't practice enough what to do if you do get lost, my suggestion is to start doing some practice. When on a hike, have a boy hide behind a tree and find out how long it is before his absence is noted and he is found by his patrol or troop. Do that a few times, and they will get the idea. To me, a Scout hike isn't a walk in the park. It's a way to get from one outdoor problem that boys have to solve using Scouting skills to another. Seattle Pioneer

I', glad to have the opportunity to agree with Bob White that using the recommended Scout method of deciding who the best person for a job may be and then inviting him to do it is the best method. This avoids the problem of having the wrong person volunteering to do jobs they aren't good at doing. I was asked to organize training for unit leaders in conducting fall recruiting. The DE suggested a few people to help, and most of those agreed to do so when asked, although they were experienced leaders ---no big deal there.. The DE also suggested I find someone in the Cub Pack for which I'm Unit Commissioner to help out. At the Pack Committee meeting, I asked for the names of some likely parents for me to call, but the Pack leaders thought that parents had been asked enough. "Asking" consisted of pleading e-mails to parents asking for help. For example, prior to the June Pack Overnight, such an e-mail went out asking for parents to assist with the Pack Overnight. None turned up, so the three Pack leaders (and I) did the work. Well, I don't know all that many of the parents of the Cub Scouts, but I knew one. So I called him and asked him to help me. He agreed. So his first role as a Scout Leader is helping to organize a District level event. Being sneaky, I assigned him to call this same Pack to get the Pack leaders to get trained in recruiting. The Cubmaster promptly recruitied that volunteer again, this time to help the Pack in recruiting. But I'm selling this training as a way for Pack leaders to recruit new adults as leaders in recruiting and then help the pack plan and conduct recruiting this fall. So I suggested to the Cubmaster that he find one or two additional parents and invite them to attend the training. I got the e-mail from him a few days ago --- another shotgun request to help. You'd think they'd learn. And in most respects, the Cubmaster is an excellent leader who took Woodbadge this spring. I give out copies of the Scout recommended methods for recruiting adult leaders every other committee meeting or so, but they don't want to do the job. Seattle Pioneer Seattle Pioneer

I spent Sunday through Thursday morning at the Counsil's summercap with the Troop. I had to return to work on organizing a district event taking place 8/3. I found the signups for summercamp activities somewhat aggravating. First, I had never seen the information sheet on summercamp, and thus wasn't as informed as I should have been on a lot of things. While parts of three troop meetings had been involved in planning what the Scouts would sign up for, that seemed to be thrown out the window when the signups actually took place. Young Scout who a Sage Scouter might think needed to sign up for "Trail to First Class" kinds of activity wanted to sign up for anything but. Scouts who were beginners or non swimmers didn't want to sign up for swimming instruction. The bottom line seemed to be that it wasn't practical to force boys into program I thought they ought to be in. I did my best to sell boys on things I thought they needed and would benefits from, but the Scouts mostly decided for themselves. Yes, the SM might have refused to sign off on blue cards or whatever, but it wasn't worth the fight. The end result was that two of these Scouts got tossed out of the Cooking Merit Badge Class they signed up for, for being bored and disruptive and making remarks like "this is boring. It's just like school" and such. Well, duhh. They were trying to do a program they weren't ready to do. In talking with the Scoutmaster of a neighboring troop about this, he suggested having the senior Scouts talk up the value of certain skills, pointing out that swimming was necessary to do boating activities for example. That was a good idea. Any others? Seattle Pioneer

Just a guess--- It sounds as though the woman who signed up for the candy realized she the person responsible for the candy/money. When she discovered it was lost, she obviously got very angry. This might be because she was humiliated at having to report this situation and/or because she repaying the money would be a hardship. That doesn't excuse the angry and uncooperative initital response, but perhaps it puts in in perspective. The bottom line is that she made good on the mmonety she owed. My inclination would be to have the Cubmaster or Pack Commmittee Chair write the person a letter thanking them for making good on the amount owed, making an understanding comment about how children sometimes have a hard time learning about such issues, and inviting the child and family back into the Pack. Children and people do stupid things all the time. I'd be inclined to look for a way to keep these people in the Pack unless the Cubmaster and/or Pack Committee chair think that is unwise. Seattle Pioneer

It's quite possible to use Scouting to become a "real expert" in outdoor activities. Indeed, some of Washington States top climbers developed their expertise through Scouting, including Jim Whittaker, the first American to climb Mt. Everest. For boys and troops that want to develope real expertise, the opportunity is there. But Scouting doesn't require real expertise in order to carry out its fitness and character building aims. And relatively few troops are going to be equipped with leaders who are genuine experts in such things. Personally, I'd backpacked 3,000 plus miles and had a modest climbing history behind me before I was a Scoutmaster in 1982 at age 32. I also had substantial experience in snowshoeing, cross country skiing and bicycling, among other things. That was a considerable depth of experience along the lines I would suppose you have in mind. That did allow me to craft some trips that were a few cuts above the average troop campout. But it wasn't really critical to having a good troop program, in my opinion. Where this kind of expertise would be more valuable is in keeping the interest of older Scouts who have mastered the fundamentals of Scouting and are ready and interested in tougher and most sophisticated trips. In my view, the main reason the outdoor program is valuable in shaping character is that it exposes boys to the idea that "actions have consequences" in ways that can't easily be ignored. Learning that essential fact doesn't require sophisticated trips --- all you have to do is forget to pack your raingear on a weekend car camping trip. And frankly, even with the expertise I had in outdoor stuff, I learned a lot from the Boy Scouts too. My usual practice on a backpacking trip was to get up at the crack of dawn, hike 5-6 miles before breakfast and then continue hiking until the sun as going down and it was time to cook a Kraft Mac and cheese dinner. The Boy Scouts taught me you could have a fun time in camp without going anywhere, and that camp food could actually be really good to eat. These days, most people regard me as a highly skilled Dutch Oven cook, for example. These days, I'm a lot more interested in promoting the idea of Scouts learning to do a good job of cooking their meals than I am of promoting backpacking. When Scouts decide they want to go backpacking, I'll be glad to help teach them and take them. But learning to cook is essential and must be taught from the beginning. Perhaps this post will give you an idea of the reasons for my biases, dk. Seattle Pioneer

There are lots of ways to make a game out of fire building. I relate one I used with success a few months ago. The Cub Pack I work with was planning a day hike to a nearby park. In order to add a fun activity at this destination, I headed there directly. I prepared a supply of candle ax firestarter, tinder, kindling and larger firewood in separate piles. A pinic area had several barbeques in it. I set up each barbeque with a blown up balloon tied to a stick so it was held 18" or so above the bottom of the barbeque. When the Cub Scouts and adult arrived, they formed themselves into small groups with an adult in charge of the firebuilding at each barbeque. A discussion on safety as held before the competition began. One boy at a time could come and choose one handful of whatever kind of firebuilding material they wanted. They could come as many times as they liked. Matches were under the supervision of the adult, although the Scouts lit off their fires I think. The winner was the team that popped their balloon the first. Every team did manage to get their balloon popped, and everyone had a fun time, I think. Once built, the Cubs roasted hot dogs on a stick for part of their lunch. Seattle Pioneer

Heck, DK. I didn't say I was opposed to change, and I think your worries about Scouting numbers is reasonable. I just think your batting .000 with the two suggestions you made for change. These were to add two additional elements to the goals of Scouting by adding environmental politics and protection as Scouting goals, and adding emergency preparedness as one of the aims of Scouting. As I noted in an earlier post, I think the first is a flat bad idea. The second is something that is already a part of the Scouting program. It is already in its proper place and doesn't need to be given a dramatically higher priority, in my view. But Scouting is quite flexible. If you or particular units wish to try out ideas such as the ones you suggest, there is no reason you can't do so. Perhaps you could prove me wrong. The troop I work with spent a month of troop meetings studying first aid, followed by a weekend outing which featured first aid as a theme, and a district level First Aid Oree competition where the Scouts won 3rd place overall. If they were really interested in extending that to additional months of program and concentration on Emergency Preparedness, I'd be glad to support it. But they have had enough of that for the time being. Are they wrong? Do you really think adults should be imposing more emergency preparedness on Scouts when there is no obvious interest in it? Seattle Pioneer

I've never heard of special permissions being required as you describe. Since I'm involved with a small troop, I'd like to see MORE joint activities between troops. The usual concern is that more attractive Scout programs might siphon off boys from weaker units. Does anyone have experience in working together with other Scout units on outdoor or other activities? This could include Cub Scout packs that might plan joint Pinewood Derby competitions with another Pack, for example. While I think this is a good idea, I see very little of it happening. I've mentioned doing this to packs and troops in the area, but no one seems very interested. Seattle Pioneer

In my opinion, the most important rank in Scouting is First Class, not Eagle. The implicit promise Scouting makes to boys when they joing is to go hiking and camping. The road to First Class is the road to becoming competent at hiking and camping, if it's done right. In turn, Scouting gets the opportunity to train boys in the Scouting ideas of character, fitness and citizenship while the boy is having fun hiking and camping. If it's done right, boys can absorb much of what Scouting has to offer by the time they complete the First Class requirements. The rest of the road to Eagle should be polishing and expanding on the basic ideas a boy has already learned. This approach may not work too well for troops intent upon the First Class/First year approach to Scouting. For those troops, perhaps it's necessary get get the Eagle rank for boys to learn things they should have learned by First Class. Seattle Pioneer

I agree that the Scout should be free to make his own decision. If he decides he has better, or other things to do with his time, that's fine. I also like the idea of encouraging him to have fun with his troop. That's probably more important than getting the Eagle rank, anyway. Those comments aside, perhaps he should consider some other Eagle project that would be more fun for him and less work. That might be worth a five minute discussion after he has the time to have had some fun in his troop once again. Seattle Pioneer

Sorry DK, I think myou have Scouting confused with the FEMA. Scouting already suggests that people Be Prepared for any old thing that may happen. But the reason is that it's a part of the Scout idea of good character which involves being able to look after yourself and to help other people. Sorry, I think you are still batting .0000 with your ideas to "update" Scouting. Seattle Pioneer

Sorry, D. K., but in my view you have the issue just backwards. In my view, teaching about good character in Scouting mostly isn't a matter of talking, it's about learning from experience. Yesterday I was leading Cub Scouts around a nature study trail at Cub Scout Day Camp. One boy had a handfull of luscious looking Oregon Grapes and was ready to eat them, until he learned from the program that they were poisonous. Another Cub Scout was ready to take off down a trail he was sure was the correct one, which it wasn't. That led to a discussion about why the rules that had been discussed to keep people together were important. To me, the beginning of good character is discovering that actions have consequences. In a good outdoor program, it's hard for boys to avoid recognizing that fact of life. Frankly, I don't have the slightest interest in "The Environment" as an abstraction. In my view, a lot of enviro types are basically involved in various kinds of nature worship, something you seem to be supporting directly or indirectly to me. In short, I don't buy your argument. Seattle Pioneer

I find it interesting that a good many state governors are complaining about Federal requirements that state offices issuing driver's licenses verify that applicants for driver's licenses are legal residents before issuing a license. The complaint is that this is an unreasonable burden for such officials to perform. Yet these are the same people who register people to vote under "motor voter" laws. Presumably that have no problem identifying people who are citizens and registering them to vote, but are unable to distinhuish between legal residents and illegal immigrants? How is that? Seattle Pioneer

I suppose I should just let a bad idea sit there and expire, but I can't resist jumping on the idea in dkurtenbach's post in which he suggests that "The Environment" be raised to a Scouting "aim." He seems to be proposing that the Scouts adopt the aim of the Sierra Club as an aim of Scouting, turning Scouts into what would amount to being the youth program of the Sierra Club. Bad idea, in my view. Firstly, I don;t think the Sierra Club is doing very well these days. The heyday of the environmental activist was the 1970s. Secondly, I see no demand by Scouts to become political activists over such issues. If some Scouts or Troops choose to support particular proposals regading land use in their areas, they are welcome to do so. But I see no reason to make that an aim of Scouting. Scouting should continue to focus on helping boys grow into men of good character, not politics. Scouting does intersect with politics some of the time in carrying out it's existing mission. That's far different from making politics one of it's main aims. As far as dkurtenbach's other idea of extending Cub Scouts into a parallell program that doesn't have the outdoor program as a method, I don't quite see how that would work. What I usually see in Webelos units is an intense interest in doing more camping. If Webelos dens do a good deal of camping, boys usually stay in them. If they don't they find the craft kind of Cub Scout activities boring at that age and drop out. And while it's likely enough that there is an audience for an arts and crafts type of program for boys and girls, I wonder if you can really keep the diverse interest of such children focussed enough to keep an organization from flying off in different directions? Scouting is built around the idea of going hiking and camping, which shapes a large part of the advancement program through First Class. Hiking and camping naturally developes the Scouting theme of personal responsibility and character development, since boys inevitably learn on camping trips that "Actions Have Consequnces." In short, the outdoor method strikes me as among the most important to Scouting. I'm sure you could create a model for a youth organization that doesn't involve the outdoors (youth sports and youth bands and orchestras do that of course) but you still need some kind of powerful interest on which to build a group and an orgnization. Seattle Pioneer

That sounds like an interesting program, Eagle. Is it a "canned" program like JL Training for a Troop, or do people make up the program content themselves? If it's a defined program, where am I likely to be able to find it? That sounds like something I might work at for the District to provide for Scout Troops. Any pointers as to the best time to present this program during the year? It sounds like it would be a good training device to precede doing a Troop annual planning session. Seattle Pioneer

Ummm. I'm not impressed by people cooking for Webelos Scouts. A Webelos Scout outing should be an excellent time for Webs to begin learning to cook for themselves. Seattle Pioneer

Fuzzy Bear suggested that all leaders have to have fun in a Scout program at least once/month. I like that one best of all made so far. Too often, I think we get caught up in Scout related stuff so much that we can neglect the importance of having fun on Scout activities. Having fund ourselves might remind us of that. I was reminded of that last night when I had a conference with my Assistant Commissioner, my boss as Unit Commissioner for a struggling Scout Troop I work with. After listening to my stories of strengths and weaknesses of the troop, she prescribed more fun and fun activities. I think she's right. Too often, the fun has been squeezed out of troop activities in favor of advancement, or uniforming, or competition at Camporee or other considerations. She suggested we set up an annual planning session with a barbeque or lunch as a fun activitty for adults, and said she attend to point us in good activity directions which would give a priority to having fun. Good call I think ---and good intervention by district staff. Seattle Pioneer

A few more Bush appointments to the courts of appeal and Supreme Court should resolve this kind of issue for a few more decades. Seattle Pioneer

Interesting post there, drockstur. Frankly, I don't think it's especially important for you to look for support from other troops if your non uniform uniforming method works for your troop. Indeed, I was just talking to an Assistant District Commissioner who said that uniforming could be a barrier to new boys joining a Troop, and she suggested having one non uniformed meeting per month which might be useful as a way of encouraging new boys to attend troop meetings. So my question to you is: does the method you describe work well for your troop? If so, what are the advantages and disadvantages of that practice that you see? And why go to using uniforms only for Eagle Scout candidates? Do the Scouts WANT to use the uniform at that point, or do they feel pressured by district level advancement committees to appear in uniform? If the district committee is the only reason, I think that is wrong --- uniforms are not required in Boy Scouts as I understand it. I invite you to tell us more about how this works for your troop. Seattle Pioneer

Ummmm. I've done several thousand miles of backpacking. A common and favored meal at the end of a long day was Kraft mac&cheese with lots of butter in it --- an easy to fix and tasty calorie bomb. My most common food for other meals was a sack of ham & cheese sandwiches made up before leaving on the trip. I could happily eat these for days, they survived in my pack and again were great calorie bombs. The main challenge on long, multi day backpacking trips is to be able to keep eating enough calrories to keep your energy level up. Fancy cooking is a waste of time under those conditions, in my experience. Now, car camping type camping is quite different. I favor eating well with Dutch Oven cooking in those circumstances. Seattle Pioneer

Sorry to hear of your bad experience, Scoutmom. I'm glad to be able to report that I've never witnessed such bad behavior being tolerated in my fairly extensive experience with Scouting. However, Scouts in units I've worked with have displayed bad behavior. One boy earned himself a month suspension from the program after several incidents of bad behavior at a Cub Pack overnight our troop was supporting. Another outing a year ago might have had boys responsible for breaking up restroom fixtures at a state park. There was some anecdotal evidence that a late night group of teenagers may have been responsible, but I'm afraid I had my doubts about that explanation. I wound up leaving that troop as a volunteer, largely because of bad experiences on that outing that were tolerated by leaders. It does sound like the unruly comments made weren't repeated at later ceremonies, so I would suppose that action was taken to deal with that complaint. The complaint about uniforms is something I could ignore. I think I would have reported the unruly behavior in the Merit Badge classes to the Camp Counselor, and expected that boys persisting in that would be sent back to their campsite and removed from the class or classes where they were refusing to cooperate. Camp staff shouldn't have to put up with that, and other Scouts shouldn't be exposed to that kind of bullying behavior. Too bad you didn't have a chance to draw out the Scoutmaster at a crackerbarrel or other informal occasion. One wonders what troubles he had to deal with. Seattle Pioneer

How about giving the Guide the responsibility for organizating ways of meeting some specific advancement requirements for the boys in the patrol? For example, organize taking the physical fitness tests for Tenderfoot. Taking the Patrol swimming and testing the boys on Second and First Class swimming requirements. Teaching and testing on some specific first aid requirements. Seattle Pioneer

Lot's of good ideas in this thread. Personally, I use 12'x12' or 12' x 20' tarps. For poles, I favor buying six 2"x2" x 8' square studs at Home Depot. Cut four of those to a six foot length, and use those to stake out the corners of the tarps. The 8' lngeth are used to form a ridgeline. It's easy to lash these poles together and keep them together, and often the tarps can be erected in alternate ways that don't need all the poles. You could also use just two poles forming and ridgeline, and stake out the sides of the tarp. I like the idea of using PVC pipe along with couplings so that the poles can be shorter. I'll have to experiment with that approach. Seattle Pioneer

Good points, Eagle Pete. As I see it, the biggest advantages I have as a trained and experienced Scouter are in evaluating the problems and recomending possible solutions to the problems I see. The second big advantage is the ability to avoid being mired in day to day problems and instead focus on the longer term, more critical problems. Most adult leaders are mired in the problems of the unit they work in, and have little perspective to bring to problems. They also tend to focus on the day to day problems of a unit, with limited ability to focus on longer term goals. I work with a Cub Pack that has come back from the edge of dissolving when the previous Cubmaster "who did everything," left. Now we have a degree of stability, with three skilled adult leaders guiding the program. What they don't see is that rather than having ONE person ho "does everything," they have THREE people who "do everything." That is still not a stable program, long term. I have been pushing them to focus on getting more parents to be a part of the program, with some success. The problem is that it's usually more work to get a new volunteer to do a small job than to do the small job yourself. Long term, though, it's deadly. At present, the most valuable contribution I can make to this unit is to keep encouraging leaders to recruit new parent volunteers. If they keep working at it, we might get to a good position in another six month period of time or so. With the Scout Troop I described in an earlier post, my aim is to strongly encourage leaders to focus on having a consistantly very good-excellent program, while I focus on recruiting needed new boys. In this unit, both are critical problems. I use these units to describe why I think good judgement in identifying problems and solutions is a vital skill that's too often absent. Seattle Pioneer

Sorry, it doesn't sound like a bargain to me. It sounds like an expensive gadget that will be rapidly lost or broken, the batteries of which will wear out and will probably fail or not be carried when it's needed. What is needed is good training and discipline for the people involved in backcountry travel. And a whistle, perhaps. Scouting is not supposed to be a walk in the park. A hike is an opportunity for the SM and AS to set up lost child and first aid problems for Scouts to encounter and solve for themselves. After they do that a few times, they will learn the skills and discipline that will protect them in the future. Gadgets wont do that. Seattle Pioneer