SeattlePioneer

Wow, excellent post on Lone Scouts and BSA scouting abroad! Perhaps it's worth keeping these programs in mind when criticism of national BSA is being vented. It seems that they make a good deal of effort to bring Scouting to families even when the costs must exceed the revenues generated. Seattle Pioneer

Lots of good ideas there, Neil. I'm going to e-mail your post on to my District Commissioner. Seattle Pioneer

Hello Neil--- Good post. I'd say if you went from twelve to forty Commissioners you were doing something right. What was the secret of your success? My District Commissioner's meeting hits hard every month at trying to identify new Commissioners, but it's tough, just as you describe. I suppose one partial answer is not to overlook anyone who is a reasonable possibility. If they are, talk to them and ask them to serve. I suggested earlier in this thread the possibility of recruiting Eagle or other Scouts, or Venturers who might be 21 or so and recruit them as Commissioners. We seem to just let those young men faaade away in a lot of cases. Someone else suggested targeting Cubmasters or Pack Committee chairs who have had their boys age out of Cub Scouts as Commissioners. Do any of those categories of people sound promising to you as a source of Commissioners? Seattle Pioneer

It looks like services such as MSN and Yahoo make it easy to set up "group" websites with calendars, e-mail services, photo albums, the ability to display documents and other amenities that would be useful to Cub Packs or Scout Troops. And the cost is right --- free! Does anyone use these services or have arguments as to why they are good or not good for Scouting purposes? Seattle Pioneer

What methods do you use to encourage boys to learn to swim? How often do you schedule outings or meeting night visits to swimming pools or swimming areas? Seattle Pioneer

The lesson to learn is to buy oil and gas stocks, especially when they are at a cyclical low. Many such stocks can be bought for little or nothing in commissions using DRIPs. Write this advice on the palm of your hand and then don't wash. Seattle Pioneer Not a victim of higher energy prices

Hello Gurnee-- As you'll see from my post just before yours, I'm not a big fan of disagreeable punishments either, although I think there might be a suitable role for them now and again. And other leaders may have different views that would use punishment more often than would I ---that's OK too, in my view. But I don't agree with your statement that "it's my way or the highway," as a blanket approach either. To go back to the example I encountered at summer camp, I encountered a Scout I'd brought to camp being given pushups by a camp Merit Badge Counsellor after mouthing off. I raised no objection to that discipline, and indeed I supported the Merit Badge Counselor's authority in that instance. What would you have done in that circumstance? If you want to find a Troop that will guarantee you that your boy will never be asked to do pushups, help yourself. Personally, I think there are more important considerations when picking a Scout Troop. These are all judgement calls and I'm not saying you are WRONG! Just that such issues seem more complex that black or white decisions. I don't understand why it might not be instructive to do a few pushups after mouthing off to an instructor. Some boys might be missing a valuable experience. Seattle Pioneer

Hello again, rpushies, Sometimes I think discussion boards are designed to inhibit communication. I'm all in favor of following the recommended Scouting program. That's my bias. But rather often, Scout programs just don't work that way. The Scoutmaster in the Troop I volunteer with just can't run an adequate program, and it causes a lot of compromises to occur, most of them bad. So what should I do --- get out and seek out a model Scout unit? I volunteered with this unit because it was barely hanging in, but had and still has the possibility of improving. So the point I'm trying to make is that units have wide discretion in how they deliver the Scouting program. A chess club may want to start up a youth chess program and use Scouting for its youth protection program and dispense with advancement, uniforming, an outdoor program and such. They are entitled to do that if they are chartered by a BSA council. I am simply trying to illustrate the wide variety of ways the BSA and local councils can deliver and support youth programs. Units don't have to follow a conventional Scouting program if they don't want to and the DE thinks what they are doing is acceptable. From what I've been told, the Soccer and Scouting program involves units being chartered as regular Cub Scout Packs. ---That's the way they are carried in the District records I have as District Membership Chair. So it's not a separate program as you suggest, it's merely taking advantage of the flexibility Scouting allows units in delivering a youth program to boys. Perhaps it can be compared to the LDS Scouting program, another example of that kind of flexibility and variety. And I get along fine with Scouting professionals. One of my aims as District Membership Chair is to take the load off the District Director so he can concentrate on doing other things for the district. I guess he thought enough of that support to appoint me to that position after I'd refused it last fall. Seattle Pioneer

That's fine in theory, Scout Nut, but it just begs the question. Tuesday the SM checked his own boy and another off on the second class swim requirements by allowing them to jump into water barely over their heads, with the boys coming to the surface by pushing off from the bottom. During the summer camp swim test, one boy refused to jump into deeper water and the other had to be hauled to the surface. The problem is that these boys do not have the swimming skills you describe, but conducting the swimming test allows that fact to be disguised. Seattle Pioneer

Sorry, I don't see Scouting as a sinking ship at all --- certainly not in the way suggested by the opening post. The problem seems to be that there are fewer people interested in taking the cruise that Scouting offers. The passengers who are on board often seem to be quite happy with the cruise. It may be that the management will need to modify the kind of cruise that is offered, but that has nothing to do with the ship sinking in some kind of dramtic mechanical failure. Seattle Pioneer Wondering if it worthwhile to belabor the image suggested

Hello rpusjies, Please reread madkins 007s post just before yours. It expresses a pragmatic statement of the flexibility chartered organizations have to tailor Scout programs to meet their needs. The soccer and Scouting Cub Scout program is the ordinary Cub Scout Program, adapted to meet the needs and interests of the targeted population. If a Cub Scout unit wants to choose a different way of presenting their youth program to their members and the DE is agreeable to that, who are you to object? The rest of your post reads a lot of opinions into my post that are not there. You first acknoledge that units can dispense with uniforms if they wish, and then go on to suggest that units don't have the power to deviate from programs as laid down by National ---or at least that's what I hear you suggesting. I see too many people parsing the "rules" of Scouting seeking the holy grail of Scouting wisdom. That's probably expecting too much in many cases. As a practical matter, unit leaders have a lot of flexibility to decide how their Scouting program will work. Unless this goes so far as to offend the DE and bring down authoritative corrective action, they can probably do so. I again suggest that if a chess club decides to be a chartered organization for a youth chess club and obtain a Boy Scout charter from their local council to do so, then they can go ahead and dispense with uniforms, the outdoor program, advancement and other things altogether. And if they have a good youth chess program, it may be quite succesful. All this seems pretty basic. I'm afraid I really don't understand your objections with any clarity. Seattle Pioneer

While I think there might be a role for "punishment" now and then, in my view one of the challenges in Scouting is finding ways to gain compliance with your program without using punishment. Your troop may like to set a high standard in uniforming, but may find it difficult to get boys to go along with that standard. What to do? Personally, I'd avoid punishing boys who didn't comply with uniforming standards. I'd be a lot more inclined to use other Scouting methods, such as being sure that adults were in uniform and that boy leaders were encouraged to set a good example. Uniform inspections with prizes for the best patrol results would use the patrol method to encourage uniforming. If boys are aware that uniforming is a condition of advancing in rank in order to meet participation requirements, advancement might be used to encourage uniforming. It may be that adult and boy leaders will find that their ambitious standards are simply not shared by the boys in a troop Perhaps the views of the Scouts should be listened to. Seattle Pioneer

The First class swim requirement has the same wording, as does the swim test for canoeing, rowboating and power boating. So I'm asking--- are those who would pass someone as a swimmer who will only jump into water as deep as they are tall saying--- 1) This is the standard we expect of Eagle Scouts 2) A person who is in a canoe, rowboat or powerboat shouldn't be expected to be able to jump into water if called upon to do so unless the depth has been measured in advance and found to be no deeper than the boy is tall? Seattle Pioneer

Hey Semper--- If you find a stretch of track like that that is all downhill, let me know. I'd like to go along! Reminds me of the longest bicycle descent I ever did ---26 miles and about 5,000 feet of elevation loss in one long, smooth descent from a pass through the Blue Mountains south of Walla Walla, Washington. Of course, before that it had been about 5,000 feet of elevation gain in 26 miles going up the other side. At the time, I was in pretty good condition and just ground it out. That was about 1982 or so. Seattle Pioneer

When you've been to summer camp and been given the Scout swim test, wwhat have the Scout lifeguards used as a requirement on this issue? Have you seen lifeguards who carefully measured the depth of the water to be sure it was only slightly deeper than the Scout was tall, or have Scouts been directed to jump into water that was significantly deeper? For those who believe in a literal interpretation of this rule, have you offered to correct the lifeguard's misinterpretation of this rule, or would you do so in the future? This summer, when the troop was given the swim test, the adults and boys were directed to jump into water in the deepest portion of the beginner's area, which should have been around nine feet deep. One Scout refused to take the test because he wasn't comfortable jumping into water that deep, and a second boy jumped in but had to be hauled out since he didn't seem to be coming to the surface on his own. Should I as an adult leader have protested administering the swim test in this way? Seattle Pioneer

Well, interesting ideas. But does this give a Scout a guarantee that he will only be asked to jump into water an inch deeper than he is tall? Suppose he is asked to jump into water that is nine feet deep, as was done during the swim test at summer camp. Does he get to bargain with the person doing the testing over the depth of the water he is asked to jump into? It seems to me that being able to come to the surface without the aid of pushing off from the bottom is a basic test of being a beginner swimmer. Or even a "swimmer" since the same test is required of First Class scouts. How would you feel about an Eagle Scout who said, "Yes, I'm a swimmer of course, but I'll only jump into water that's no more than six feet deep."? Seattle Pioneer

To those who posted loaded questions asking whether, if uniforms were dispensed with, whether other methods of Scouting like the outdoors program could be dispensed with as well. It seems to me that the answer to this question is, "yes." In my district, a large number of new Cub Scouts are being recruited through the latino oriented "Soccer and Scouting" program. Those groups are picking and choosing what parts of thge Cub Scout Program work for them, under the direction of a District Executive. And to put a finer point on it, if a school or church wanted to organize a chess club for boys, and use the Boy Scouts youth protection and liability programs, but include only the parts of the Boy Scout Program that worked for chess, I see no reason why they couldn't do that, especially if the DE were willing to take their money. And I see no reason why they wouldn't do so. Seattle Pioneer

The swimming requirement for 2nd class reads: "Demonstrate your ability to jump feetfirst into water over your head in depth, level off and swim 25 feet on the surface, stop, turn sharply, resume swimming, then return to your starting place. " I've always presumed that meant you had to jump into water deep enough that you could not touch bottom and use it to get back to the surface. Last night at a swim at a public pool, the Scoutmaster interpreted that literally, allowing some boys (including his son) who had failed to pass the swimming requirement at summercamp because they were unwilling to jump into deep water, to pass the requirement. Scouts were permitted to jump into water scarcely deeper than they were tall to complete the requirement. Does that sound like a correct interpretation of this requirement? Seattle Pioneer

Sorry scouter-mom, I think your post illustrates the problems of nanny statism that tries to make everyone responsible for reporting people to public authorities. I continue to suggest that the Scout be asked to report on the legality and possible consequences of underage drinking and that he then be trusted to make a wise decision about his future behavior. Seattle Pioneer

In economics, there is an idea that bad money drives good money out of circulation. My experience is that there is a similar dynamic in Scouting. Bad boys can drive good boys out of a Pack or Troop. Several boys, and often the best boys. Think carefully about whether you are prepared to let that happen. When the boys cheer an absent and ill Scout, you have all the signs. Scouting isn't for all boys. And keeping the worst while leaving the best to leave is a poor policy, in my own experience. Seattle Pioneer

Good luck with your plan, T216. My own suggestion was somewhat similar. I'd suggested adjourning the Eagle Scoutmaster Conference or BOR if you discovered alcohol was being used. Then ask the Scout to research the effects and risks of alcohol use, the legality of alcohol use by minors and whether this was consistant with Scouting. Set the next date for the Scoutmaster Conference or BOR in 30 days and see what the Scout reports back. Personally, I wouldn't ask him to promise not to drink in the future or delay his eagle unless he volunteered that he was going to continue to drink. If he doesn't do that, I would trust him to make wise decisions about managing his life, and go ahead with the Eagle. I like the article you refer to --- it explains why you have an interest in underage drinking and explains the added risks the presents to young people. I'm not saying your plan to require six months (or whatever) of being alcohol free is wrong. Just that it gets you involved in managing the boys life in ways that I'm not comfortable with, especially in the face of unsupportive parent(s). In my view, your responsibility reasonably ends when you are sure the Scout has the information he needs to make a wise decision. I'd then trust him to do the wise thing. We recently had an eleven year old Scout we suspended for a month after he 1) stole $30 from a tentmate 2) pushed a much larger Scout and sent him sprawling and 3) sprayed a Cub Scout with deoderant ---all on the same weekend campout. In the five weeks he's been back (including summercamp) we haven't seen these aggressive behaviors repeated. If we are lucky, we will have chosen wisely and helped a boy improve his self control in very important ways. I hope your plan works for you. Seattle Pioneer

At our recent training session for Cub Scout Fall recruiting, we aimed to recognize the challenges that faced shorthanded pack leadership in doing recruiting. To put a 90 minute program in a few paragraphs, the suggestions were: 1) Pick out the date for you Scout nights NOW. A day or days in the third or fourth week of September is usually best. Pick the dates, order your materials and get started with your recruiting plan now. 2) You can't do everything, so don't try. Don't try to get a regular Pack and Den program started right away. 3) Perhaps begin with a Pack meeting the 2nd or 3rd week of school. Use this as an opportunity to get parents to assist you with the Scout night and to get Cub Scouts and parents involved in promoting your Scout night by inviting families with Cub Scout age children to attend the Scout night. 4) Use six or more different methods to promote your Scout night, such as 1) Cub Scouts inviting their friends, 2) Parents inviting families 3) flyers sent home by schools 4) visiting Church Sunday Schools to invite boys 5) asking religious leaders to promote your Scout night in Church 6) wwith a flyer in the church bulletin 7) yardsigns around the entrance to the location of your Scout Night 5) Don't spend a lot of time explaining the Cub Scout program at your Scout Night, and don't use Pack or Den Meetings as a Scout night. Keep it simple --- most parents want to sign up, pay their money and get home to watch "Friends" or whatever. 6) Do have an excellent program to invite the parents and new Cub Scouts to the next week. Since you wont have a Pack or Den meeting that week, your can bring your best leaders in and create a knock-your-socks off program that will wow the boys and their parents. Consider putting on a "Bobcat University" to introduce the boys to Cub Scouting and MAKE IT FUN! 7) The next week is your first big Pack meeting. The new Cub Scouts get introduced to the Pack and any who have completed their Bobcat award get recognition along with their parents, "graduating" from Bobcat University and receiving their Bobcat award. 8) The next weekend you redeem the promise of Cub Scouting and go hiking or do a day camp, doing several different outdoor activities. Parents of boys who turn out for this event can be hit up for leadership positions during the course of the day. 9) It can take some time to get your Den program going and up to speed. You don't need to have Den meetings every week. Have one excellent one once/month if that's what you can do, and work up to more as Den Leaders get the idea. This is a canned program that allows those with limited support to concentrate scarce leadership resources where they are needed the most. Pick and choose ideas as you wish if you find some that will help you. Seattle Pioneer District Membership Chair

When George Patton slapped a soldier during WWII, he was required by Dwight Eisenhower to publically apologize to the soldier involved, and to the units that were involved as well. Patton was punished for other foolish behavior during the course of the war. British Field Marshal Montgomery was nearly removed from command because of his opposition to orders from Eisenhower, and wound up giving a rather abject apology and promise of future good behavior. Eisenhower cashiered a Major General and sent him home a Major because of foolish comments made in a restaurant that could have compromised the Security of the invaision of France. General MacArthur was relieved of command in Korea because of his insubordination to President Harry Truman. Just a guess, but I'd suppose that any of these men would have prferred doing a few pushups to the punishment they received. Scouters make mistakes and errors, but good ones try to recognize those mistakes, apologize for them and aim for future improvement. Those who persist in bad behaviors are probably not going to be asked to do pushups, but will be removed from positions of responsibility in Scouting in various ways. I think it's bogus to say that Scouters and adults generally are excused from punishment for bad behavior. Pushups may not be the methods used to encourage compliance with social norms, but the punishments are often quite real. Seattle Pioneer

Interesting story, Mark. I think it illustrates the flexibility and careful judgements that ought to be made when confronted with such an issue. While I'm not Catholic, it also reminds me of the Catholic view that everyone is sinful, and yet everyone deserves the opportunity to be forgiven. On a positive note, our Troop suspended an 11 year old boy who managed to do the following on a weekend campout we had with a Cub Scout Pack: 1) stole $30 cash from his tentmate 2) pushed a much larger Boy Scout and sent him sprawling and 3) sprayed a Cub Scout with deoderant. After a fairly formal hearing with the Scoutmaster, Troop Committee and the boys father, he was suspended from the troop for the remainder of the month, about three weeks. Since then, he's avoided serious issues like the one above, and we've concentrated or correcting less serious behavior problems, like cussing. My feeling as a Scouter is that some bad behavior can be ignored some of the time. Other bad behavior can't be ignored and must be confronted. But our aim should be to correct bad behavior and teach boys to be good Scouts, not necessarily to punish boys in ways that fit the crime. This requires wisdom and good judgement. I don't claim to be an Xpert on making such decisions, I just do the best I can when confronted with such issues. Seattle Pioneer

Cynics might observe that it's easy for boys who are already Eagle Scouts to be in favor of high standards for those seeking admission to the club. And off-the-cuff reactions aren't a suitable basis on which to make decisions that need to be carefully thought out. Seattle Pioneer