SeattlePioneer

I will note that one way to reduce the use of gasoline as a firestarter is to train Scouts to make their own wax based fire starter, and to check and make sure they have that with them on camping trips. They are really more effective in starting fires than gasoline, even if less dramatic. Seattle Pioneer

Good ideas, here. Another that I would suggest as a possibility would be to give your new adult leaders responsibilities for providing leadership to your adult "rocking chair patrol" on campouts ---even being the Rocking Chair Patrol Leader. Seattle Pioneer

I was quite overweight when I rejoined Scouting two years ago at age 54. That wasn't the image I wanted to project to youths, and I joined Weight Watchers and lost 50 pounds. I regained 15 pounds after quitting WW 18 months ago, but have kept my weight steady for the past year. I figure I'm doing OK. I walk nine miles 3-5 times/week and have improved my diet. Seattle Pioneer

I can't get the link to work, so I can't read the article. With that absence of information, perhaps my comments are off base. Scouting is intended to be presented by a group of capable adults, not by an individual. Doing Scouting for the homeless might be filling a real need, but I'd want to see it supported by a strong chartered partner which had significant resources to bring to the table. Otherwise, I'd suppose that it's a case of burning out your one leader before long, at which point everything is likely to collapse. Seattle Pioneer

A year ago in September I was asked to be a Unit Commissioner for a Cub Pack that had lost it's "Cubmaster Who Does EDverything" and a struggling Scout Troop. The only leader in the Cub Pack was the Popcorn Colonel who didn't even have a roster of families in the Pack. 15 months later, I attended an EXCELLENT Pack meeting Wednesday conducted by a fine Cubmaster who's working his Woodbadge Ticket. The Pack Committee Chair does an excellent job of supporting the Cubmaster. A request was made for parents to sign up for jobs such as the spring bicycle trip, spring overnight campout, Blue and Gold Dinner and such --- and low and behold, LOTS of parents signed up to help! The Scout Troop has an excellent annual plan in place with monthly outings, including a snowshoe hike that leaves at 7AM Sunday. The downside to that is that I'm the defacto Scoutmaster, since the SM simply lacks the ability to do much planning. The other downside is that we have no one willing and able to do the serious recruiting work that needs to be done. There are several parents pitching in for the Scout Troop, but key responsibilities still are not being done. Still, an excellent program is in place for the boys, although long term things don't look good. Still, that's not bad for a Scouter's Christmas. I figure I'm doing my best, and so are a lot of other people. So what would a good Scouter's Christmas be for you? Seattle Pioneer

When you gotta go, you gotta go. While it's certainly a good idea to provide people with notice that you intend to resign, in my view you have no obligation to do so if you are not up to doing the job that needs to be done. It's quite easy for Scouting to force compromises with the needs of family, employment and other obligations, including your own personal needs. This is especially true when the unit Committee isn't doing its job and unfair burdens are being placed on unit leaders. Under any of those circumstances, I'd get out if you need to do so. If giving notice places a damaging burden on you, get out NOW! In Scouting, we are only expected to to do our best. Seattle Pioneer

There is a constant struggle in this country between the forces of fads and fashions and those of what I would call (with a bias) enduring values. Not all enduring values are good. There is often an argument for challenging them and perhaps for changing them. But enduring values tend to endure because they are functional. I have a bias for those values unless a reasoned case argues for change. By contrast, fads and fasions come from nowhere, and are going there too. They are usually pretty empty in content, and not infrequently can be destructive. It is sad that so many young people become caught up in the empty values of various fads and fashions. They wind up being manipulated and controlled by media elites and marketers who contrive these fads and gain power and wealth by influencing people and selling them junk. I often try to imagine what the next fads and fashions will be. Piercing and tattoing seem to be wearing out their welcome. My theory is that before long we will see BRANDING WITH RED HOT IRONS as a coming fashion, and not too long after that, amputation of body parts. Fingers should be popular for amputation, together with the occasional nose. I'm wondering what other body parts men will be willing to contribute to this fashion when it takes hold. When people participate in fads calculated to offend a lot of people, I always imagine those people with a sign on their forehead that says "I'm a moron!" They may not be morons, but that's what they are telling the world, in my opinion. Seattle Pioneer

Changing the uniform design because it's "not stylish" would not be a thrifty thing to do. If the Scouts changed the uniform, imagine how many people would be complaining about the expense and nuisance! Personally, I have no problem wearing the uniform in cold winter camping conditions. Of course it's covered up by additional layers of clothing under and over it, but it's there. In the summer, it is somewhat hot. But I probably need to spend the money for shorts and get my short sleeved blouse tricked out for use. Personally, I find complaints about uniforms to be a waste of time. ANY uniform is going to produce unhappy complaints, in my view. Seattle Pioneer

According to our District Commissioner, the #1 reason boys quit Scouting is BORING TROOP MEETINGS. With that in mind, here's the general plan for our troop each month: 1st Week: PLC meeting 2nd week: Troop meeting promoting the monthly troop outing and signup for the outing. Permission slips handed out. 3rd week: Collection of permission slips and trip fees for the outing, and preparation for it. 3rd week end: outing 4th week: Fun activity, such as your trip to the climbing gym, swimming at the nearby pool (every other month ---swimming is important and fun!) This schedule has made it easier for Troop leaders to plan fun and interesting troop meetings, since they have fewer to plan and each meeting tends to be focussed on preparation for an outing. Indeed, meetings tend to be chock full of all the things that need to be done, which give troiop leaders choices about what to include in the meeting and allows them to place emphasis on the most important things. It's a plan that seem to be working well, and a big improvement over every week troop meetings. Seattle Pioneer

Re: Veterans Day A local retailer specializing in home woodworking equipment had a special event on Veterans Day that our troop attended. Those attending got a small block of fine wood to turn on a lathe into the barrel of a writing pen. After turning with a chisel, it was sanded and finished on the lathe, then the guts of the pen were inserted. The participants then wrote a note and sealed the pen in a plastic envelope, for shipment to a US service person overseas. This was a very nice act of generosity on the part of the retailer and a volunteer group that coached and supervised children doing the pen project. Sorry I ran out of time before posting on the Veteran's Day thread.... Seattle Pioneer

Quibble all you like FScouter. But when mountain lions were found to be stalking young children in their own neighborhoods, hunters were once again invited to use dogs to track them down while hunting. Only infrequent sightings of mountain lions in built up areas since that change occurred. I suppose the entire city of Seattle and all it's suburbs were once mountain lion habitat. Perhaps you think that mountain lions should be free to stalk children but the legislators of Washington State don't agree. Seattle Pioneer

This thread reminds me of an initiative that the animal rights types got placed on the Washington State ballot a few years ago. The initiative would prohibit hunters from using dogs to track mountain lions. Well, that didn't sound sporting, and the initiative was passed. Within a couple of years, there were increasing complaints about mountain lions extending their range into suburban communities and taking dogs and cats. After the first child was attacked, the state legislature repealed that law. Now the mountain lions usually stay in wild country, and dogs, cats and children are safe for the most part. Seattle Pioneer

Now that you mention it, our troop hasn't done much program planning for summer camp either ---and has probably suffered for it, just as you describe. An off the cuff way to begin to change that might be to have a brainstorming session in which all the Scouts are invited to suggest ideas for things they would like to do at summer camp. If you took those ideas and the program information supplied by the camp to a PLC meeting, you might begin to set prorities for things you want to accomplish as a troop, and patrols might begin planning for things they want to accomplish. And I wouldn't be limited to the official program if you want to do something else. If a patrol wants to do a backpack trip, I'd get on the phone and talk to the camp ranger about backpacking opportunities around the camp. It may be quite possible to do some backpacking right out of the camp even if it's not on the official program. But, you say, wouldn't that interfere with earning merit badges? Not at all --- you can work on merit badges on the camping trip, and probably do better than the regular camp merit badge classes. If you talk with the MB counselors, I'd be surprised if they wouldn't be glad to get rid of some of their little darlings for a couple of days and give you a list of the topics you could cover on your own! Good idea. Seattle Pioneer

Opera --What's the attraction? Symphonic music ---What's the attraction? Chess --- What's the attraction? Things I don't do --- what's the attraction and why shouldn't I promote a hate campaign for those that do? And by the way, I'm a big supporter of "diversity," too! Seattle Pioneer

At least around here, a Cubmaster needs YPT, NLE and the Cubmaster specific training. So the last is presumably all you need to be considered trained. I'd check with your District Executive, District Training Chair or atten a Cub Roundtable and ask when the next Cubmaster Specific Training is offered. In our district, it's offered several times per year. In addition to that, you can take this training through another district or even another council. Most Councils and Districts have websites that have information on training on them, so you should be able to find a district offering training before too long. Around here, you have to be "Trained" to be eligible to participate in Woodbadge. These requirements are detailed on the application form for Woodbadge in our Council ----you might obtain a Woodbadge application for your Council and see what they ask for. Seattle Pioneer

Based on the limited information available, I share the consternation of those posting to the actions described. I like Beavah's suggestion for Scouts and parents to talk to the SM about his actions. In addition, if there is a Unit Commissioner, it might be useful to bring him into that discussion as well. A UC who sees some bad SM decisions playing out may have some ideas on how to proceed. Seattle Pioneer

Interesting thread, and great post by Proud Eagle. Frankly, I've never paid too much attention to Camp Commissioners. Based on Proud Eagle's comments, I've overlooked a useful resource. Perhaps there should be a discussion of the role of Camp Commissioners during an early Scoutmasters meeting, detailing the ways in which Commissioners might be helpful to Troops and adult leaders. I've heard discussions that briefly discussed the role of Camp Commissioners, but not detailing the broader kinds of ways they might be of help that Proud Eagle described. And in my experience, Camp Commissioners didn't get really acquainted with adult Troop leadership. They kind of parachuted in to make their inspections and ask if they could be of help, without really taking the time to chat and find out what they might really be able to offer or what Troops might need or find useful that they didn't know they needed. I guess next summer I ought to make it a point to invite the Camp Commissioner to visit us and sit around the campfire and chat for a while. So philsco--- How DO you recruit and train Camp Commissioners, and how has your role changed over the years? How should troop leaders interact with Camp Commissioners to gain the most value from this camp and leadership resource? Seattle Pioneer

Thanks for the comments. If the Klondike Derby sled doesn't work well, perhaps the Scouts will decide to build some alternative in the next year. This day trip is designed to build experience, not to be an example of snow camping excellence. So difficulties and problems that the Scouts will have to deal with are a plus, not a negative. That's true for the fire as well. Scouts usually love to build fires, and I expect that there will be a lot of boys who will want the experience of building a fire in wintery and snowy conditions. Indeed, our "Turkeyburner" day hike right after Thanksgiving was a snow hike that did many of these things. Our newest Scout was given the chance to build the fire ---which he failed to do. A more senior Scout then coached him in splitting kindling and succesfully laying a fire. That's a good Scouting experience, even if no one utilizes a calorie of heat from the fire. I have a good deal of winter camping experience myself, and I'll agree that fires aren't necessary. But they can be useful, especially when you have Scouts along who are new or who have limited experience. It can be a lot easier to warm up a boy who has gotten wet and cold if you have a fire available to help with that task. So I would call this a useful backup when inexperienced Scouts are along. Beavah --- your comments about avalanche risks are well taken. The area we will be in has the potential for avalanche risks depending on where you travel and conditions. I have the experience and training (although dated) to make reasonable judgements about such issues, in my view. I may well do some avalanche awareness coaching for the Scout and adult leadership on the trip, and I will certainly be steering participants away from areas of significant hazard. Seattle Pioneer

I'll agree with Beavah that your location and the severity of your winters has a bearing on how much preparation and training might reasonably be needed for winter camping. Around here, in Washington State, there is no specific training in winter camping by the district or council, and troops routinely plan winter camping trips deciding for themselves who is eligible to go. In my view, around here the experience of the Scout is less important than the training and experience of the Scouts and adult leaders. I would take boys new to camping on winter camping trips provided the troop had the equipment and leadership to supervise and protect new/younger Scouts in winter camping situations. You might look at the snowshoeing threaf I just started, which details having a tent set up with sleeping bags inside which is used as a warming tent --- one or more Scouts who are getting cold might be placed in the warming tent and provided with some cokkies and such until they had warmed up. We would probably have a fire going to help people keep warm, and be serving hot soup and/or a hot meal during the course of the day. We would (I would) take particular care to supervise new/inexperienced Scouts to determine if they are cold or need help or coaching in how to stay warm and dry. So at least around here, where mountain temperatures are commonly in the 20s, the problem is relatively easy to deal with. If temperatures got a lot colder, we'd have to exert more care to protect Scouts and adults. Just a guess--- but I'm supposing that your district trraining is DESIGNED to be a train-the-trainer kind of situation, with the idea of spreading good ideas of winter camping practices, which paeticipants are expected to take back and apply to their units, as opposed to every Scout being expected to take the training before going winter camping. Most Scout training is the train-the-trainer variety. The idea is that Scouts and adults will learn the art of whatever is being taught and then go back and train the rest of the troop in those skills. If that's the case, the Council OA is probably not expecting to train everyone who is going winter camping. So my inclination would be to look at the intentions of the training: are they REALLY expecting that everyone going winter camping will take this training, or is it designed for boy and adult leaders? If it's for leaders, then it's really a perversion of the training to expect every Scout to take it before going winter camping. Having the troop conduct it's own winter camping seminar would be just the kind of thing the training seminar would be designed to support. Indeed, requiring every scout to take the OA seminar would be the perversion of the training, since the training would be aiming at winter camping as a Scouting experience in which boys and adults would be expected to learn winter camping while doing it with their patrol and troop. Seattle Pioneer

I'd consider buying 2-4 bulletin boards at thrifts shops and bringing them to each troop meeting. I don't think that would be unduly burdensome. Let the Scouts figure out how to use them for sign ups, announcements and such. Seattle Pioneer

I'm interested in wheregulations requiring certified camping directors and such come from. My supposition is that a troop summer camp is a long term camp. That requires extra regulations, but no certifications. After all, ideally this should be long term camping BY PATROLS, and the patrols should be cooking their own meals and such. Swimming areas ought to meet the requirements of the safe swim defense, but there are no requirements for extra certifications for lifeguards and such. But perhaps I'm in error. Does anyone know where these extra requirements might be detailed? Seattle Pioneer

Our Troop has a snowshoe hike planned for December in Washington's Cascade mountains. At today's PLC meeting that hike was moved from Saturday to Sunday and plans for it refined. The troop has done a snowshoe hike for several years, repeatedly hiking up the same old Forest Service road to go tubing at the same spot. I don't much care to do the same trip over and over again, so I offered some ideas to spice it up. I'd originally planned a winter overnight, giving the Scouts an opportunity to construct snow caves or igloos and sleep in them overnight in the backcountry. Some adults felt the Scouts lacked sufficient experience to carry that off. As an alternative, we are doing a day hike with the objective of developing the skills and experience so that we can do the overnight campout next year --- at Mt Rainier National Park near Paradise would be my preference. So this year the Scouts will be given a topographic point on a map (a small hill) to locate cross country. We will set up a day camp with the idea of being safe and comfortable in winter conditions --- setting up one tent with sleeping bags as a warming tent, setting up a rain fly with poles, scout knots and deadmen snow anchors, taking along part of a steel barrel and wood to build a fire, cooking a hot meal in the afternoon, and practicing constructing snow caves or an igloo if snow conditions permit. To carry the heavier gear, we're planning on using our Klondike Derby sled, pulled by Scouts, which ought to be fun. More hiking and tubing as time permits, with a lost child and a first aid problem thrown in for additional challenges if time permits. We have a COH in late January, so Scouts who have advancement requirements they want to complete will be encouraged to do those as well. I figure that ought to keep 'em busy, and next year the adults ought to have confidence in the ability of the Scouts to do the overnight part of the trip. Seattle Pioneer Seattle Pioneer

It's not unusual for the very best Scout Troops to conduct their own summer camps and not use regular summer camp programs. If well done, such summer camps ought to be much superior to the merit badge mills too many summer camps revolve around. But doing that must be a lot of work, and usually involves a good many adult volunteers. If you have some really talented adult leaders who are the spark plugs behind this effort, I'd investigate it carefully and have a bias towards supporting the effort if it provides an abundance of Scouting experience for boys and can be expected to keep them busy. If the leadership is thin or mediocre, I'd avoid it. Seattle Pioneer

My understanding is that the BSA teaches that leadership is a learned skill. The usual pattern of providing leadership involves: 1) identifying what needs to be done 2) identifying the best person to do the job 3) asking/convincing that person to do the job. 4) proividing that person with the skills and information they need to do the job 5) checking up to make sure they are doing the job, and assisting them by providing any additional skills or information they need to do it 6) thanking them and recognizing their work when the task is completed. The Patrol Leaders and Senior Patrol Leaders should be the natural leaders within a Scout Troop. One of the main tasks of the Scoutmaster is to train these junior leaders in the leadership skills described above and to assist these Scouts in using those skills. So if your Troop lacks leaders, the person responsible is the Scoutmaster, who should be using the PLC meetings as a vehicle for training junior leaders. Of course, age and native talent affects how much boys can do. In general, I like to lard responsibilities on boys until they discover that they can't do it all themselves and need to start delegating leadership to younger Scouts, and to begin training those boys and giving them responsibilities. The Patrol Leader then becomes the trainer for the younger Scouts in the Patrol, just as the Scoutmaster helps train the SPL and Patrol Leaders. I have a PLC meeting in 90 minutes. I've prepared the agenda since our Patrol Leader hasn't learned that method of controlling meetings yet. The agenda includes reviewing how our recent troop meetings, winter outing and Veteran's Day activities went, then planning for the upcoming two Troop Meetings, snowshoe hike, Christmas Party, Court of Honor in January and Winter Camp in early February. The aim here is to get the Patrol Leader (one Patrol Troop, here) to take as much responsibility for planning activities as possible. This is a new Patrol Leader as of the first of October. From pretty much a standing start in terms of leadership experience, he's been learning a lot and accepting increasing responsibility ---hye still needs to figure out how to delegate more responsibility to other Scouts, though. With all the stuff he needs to do this month, perhaps he'll discover for himself that he has to start doing that, even though it involves work and training the younger boys. That's my method of leadership training, anyway. Seattle Pioneer

Sorry, Dan --- I don't understand your remark. My aphorism that "The beginning of good character is discovering that actions have consequnces" has a lot of applications, in my experience. Getting signed off on a skill doesn't mean much if your can't use it when you really need it, for example. Taking people into the backcountry depends upon people being trustworthy to me. I've taken a group of adult cross country skiers back to the cars and gone home when people proved they couldn't stay together. To me, Scouting values have little to do with being good, for goodness sake. There are very practical reasons why following those values makes hard common sense. While being "helpful, friendly, courteous and kind" seem like they may be rather namby pamby values in a tough, bottom line world, they are often reliable ways to protect yourself from harm in a cruel world, in my experience. A person who is being helpful, friendly, courteous and kind," is a fairly tough person to pick a fight with, for example. Seattle Pioneer